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HTP UFT Tankless boiler
Comments
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Big difference between an air vent and an air separator.
Air vents on or in a boiler mainly grab air bubble in the HX. When the boiler only holds .6 gallons, like many do, complete air elimination is a big deal.
Air separators grab the tiny micro bubbles that air vents are unable to catch. All the system flow travels through a centrally located separator.
Really you need both, the high point float type vents AND a central separator.
Many of the noise, lack of efficiency, pump failure issues that we see day to day here can be tracked to in sufficient air removal or purge process.
On a brand new system, all new components, dirt removal is not as big of a deal, a good power purge eliminates that issue.
Connecting to old iron pipe or radiators really dictated a dirt sep.
My thoughts.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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The key vent would be for the boiler itself, inline air elimination device would be for the whole system. I thought i remembered 1/2" connection for the can vent, but I might be thinking of the Triangle Tube unit. Which I used a key vent on as well.
I have not used the Caleffi Discaldirtmag yet, but I plan to on my next boiler install. I have used the Honeywell/Spirovent/Webstone versions many times.-1 -
You might want to connect with an installer before you start buying all these parts even the boiler. It doesn’t hurt to spec what you want in the system.
-1 -
I have an installer in line who will come in next week
He said 1" pipe outlet is enough
Ended up ordering the 546196A 1" air vent model of caleffi as NY-Rob originally recommended. will install it on the outlet as directed in the instructions.
ordered the PFQ803 1/4" npt fluid filled SS pressure gauge and will place it on the outlet pipe somewhere. I guess I will leave the air vent that came with the boiler in place. unless you guys suggest otherwise.
Sentinel x100 and x400 ... any recommendation?
no idea about dosing and using this...
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2 Questions:
1) we are half way in the install and my installer found out his combustion analyzer does not work...
how crucial is it to the job, I watched the video from HTP on how to set it , I can get the manometer and combustion analyzer and do it myself later but how safe is it to postpone it
is it mostly efficiency issue?
2) For vent , can someone recommend a concentric vent kit for the HTP UFT with a splitter on the inside so Ic an connect them to the 3" in and out on the boiler?
I have an exisiting 5" hole in the wall from the last device , it would be great to just use that hole instead of making 2 new 3" holes.0 -
The combustion analysis is extremely important and I would highly recommended that you get a pro that KNOWS how to do it and what the numbers represent. There are very FEW that do.
Any standard concentric vent will work.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-in-PVC-Concentric-Vent-Kit-CVENT3/204514478Ironman said:The combustion analysis is extremely important and I would highly recommended that you get a pro that KNOWS how to do it and what the numbers represent. There are very FEW that do.
Any standard concentric vent will work.
this will do the job then?0 -
^ That will work for the concentric.0
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Another "Pro" without a working CA and Manometer?
Why is it so difficult to get someone with a working $1K piece of equipment? How do these "Pros" install new systems without a CA?
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I am with you on thatNY_Rob said:Another "Pro" without a working CA and Manometer?
Why is it so difficult to get someone with a working $1K piece of equipment? How do these "Pros" install new systems without a CA?
Testo 310 goes under 500 on ebay
he does regular boilers and just adjusts the flame visually old school.
HTP has a very detailed video showing the adjustment for UFT boiler. I am comfortable doing it myself.0 -
I've never seen the HTP video where they detail the gas valve adjustment... could you post the link?
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Combustion Analysis for the UFT, EFT and Crossover Wall ModelsNY_Rob said:I've never seen the HTP video where they detail the gas valve adjustment... could you post the link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJT3riGtV0
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^ Nice, thanks.
Pretty much the same procedure I went through, his end results were almost spot on with mine.
I ended up with:
8.8% C02 and 75 ppm CO on low fire.
9.4% C02 and 65 ppm CO on high fire.
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alright, so another question...
in the instructions diagram, it shows the water circulator pump to go on the outlet after the air eliminator.
Does it matter if I install it on the return?
to be fair the diagram for the indirect DHW tank shows the pump on the return.
My installer assures me that it does not matter.0 -
Well, he just proved that he doesn't know what he's talking about. It does matter.doctorman said:alright, so another question...
in the instructions diagram, it shows the water circulator pump to go on the outlet after the air eliminator.
Does it matter if I install it on the return?
to be fair the diagram for the indirect DHW tank shows the pump on the return.
My installer assures me that it does not matter.
It must "pump away" from the Point Of No Pressure Change; which is the point where the expansion tank connects to the system. If the boiler is directly pumping the system, then it's the supply line after the PONPC. If the boiler is hydraulically separated from the system by closely spaced Tees or a Low Loss Header, then it should be in the return line to the boiler.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
Woosh over my head...
read that 3 times and I am still not sure if I get it.
Do these boilers have a pump in them and that is why it is different from traditional boilers?
so if there is a pump in the HTP UFT .. is it on the outlet side?
The plan is for the water to come out of the outlet,
pass through the filter/air eliminator -
expansion tank -
divide between 3 zone valves
feed the zones and back collect in to 1 return
Alpha 2 pump
enter the boiler's return
He will be back tomorrow to work on it again and I have a feeling that we have to rearrange the pump placement based on your comment.
I got the Alpha 2 pump with a plug-in cable, doesn't it have to be tied into the boiler somehow?Ironman said:doctorman said:
It must "pump away" from the Point Of No Pressure Change; which is the point where the expansion tank connects to the system. If the boiler is directly pumping the system, then it's the supply line after the PONPC. If the boiler is hydraulically separated from the system by closely spaced Tees or a Low Loss Header, then it should be in the return line to the boiler.0 -
No, that's how it keeps it's memory, it always has power0
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No there is not an onboard pump on the uft. Really that’s smart design. Let the designer select the circ size.
You either pipe direct, or p/s. With this boiler most times piped direct will work. Low head loss hx, 1gpm min. Flow rate.
Depends on the head loss of the system.
Most mod/cons prefer they be pumped into the boiler (that’s on the inlet or return of the boiler), so the hx always gets the highest pressure differential the pump creates. The PONPC , or the expansion tank should be as close to the inlet of the circulator where ever it is installed. That’s where the phrase pumping away was coined. Always pump away from the point of no pressure change. The expansion tank.0 -
maybe I am just too tired to catch on right now but are you saying that I can have the pump on the return as long as the expansion tank is also on the return before the pump?Gordy said:No there is not an onboard pump on the uft. Really that’s smart design. Let the designer select the circ size.
You either pipe direct, or p/s. With this boiler most times piped direct will work. Low head loss hx, 1gpm min. Flow rate.
Depends on the head loss of the system.
Most mod/cons prefer they be pumped into the boiler (that’s on the inlet or return of the boiler), so the hx always gets the highest pressure differential the pump creates. The PONPC , or the expansion tank should be as close to the inlet of the circulator where ever it is installed. That’s where the phrase pumping away was coined. Always pump away from the point of no pressure change. The expansion tank.
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doctorman said:
Woosh over my head...
read that 3 times and I am still not sure if I get it.
Do these boilers have a pump in them and that is why it is different from traditional boilers?
so if there is a pump in the HTP UFT .. is it on the outlet side?
The plan is for the water to come out of the outlet,
pass through the filter/air eliminator -
expansion tank -
divide between 3 zone valves
feed the zones and back collect in to 1 return
Alpha 2 pump
enter the boiler's return
He will be back tomorrow to work on it again and I have a feeling that we have to rearrange the pump placement based on your comment.
I got the Alpha 2 pump with a plug-in cable, doesn't it have to be tied into the boiler somehow?
Are you doing this? This is direct pumped:Ironman said:doctorman said:
It must "pump away" from the Point Of No Pressure Change; which is the point where the expansion tank connects to the system. If the boiler is directly pumping the system, then it's the supply line after the PONPC. If the boiler is hydraulically separated from the system by closely spaced Tees or a Low Loss Header, then it should be in the return line to the boiler.
Or this? This is p/s (hydraulically separated):
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
Ironman said:
Are you doing this? This is direct pumped:
I am doing Direct pump.
sorry I had no idea what p/s was referring to till you put the picture... I realized it means primary secondary.
1) so with direct pump does it matter where the pump is located?
2) should I move the expansion tank to the return behind the pump?0 -
No, move the pump to the supply with the expansion tank connected just upstream (before it). That way it's "pumping away" from the expansion tank.
You should connect the expansion tank to the bottom of the air separator as the diagram shows.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
in the pictureLeon82 said:No, that's how it keeps it's memory, it always has power
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/na/g733z8xpvsub.jpeg
it shows the pump is connected to the boiler..
I mean how else would the pump know when to work?
the zone valve is opened by the Tstat... that does not change anything till there is a movement by the pump ...0 -
1) I am using caleffi discal dirtmag air eliminator, the bottom of that is the purge valve to clean it out not to connect to the expansion tank.Ironman said:No, move the pump to the supply with the expansion tank connected just upstream (before it). That way it's "pumping away" from the expansion tank.
You should connect the expansion tank to the bottom of the air separator as the diagram shows.
2) what could be the issue if I have the pump on the return?
practically what issue will I see in that scenario? I am not arguing about it, I am just not clear0 -
Somehow you need to assure that 1 gpm flow at the lowest load, smallest zone. The Alpha, depending on which setting you use, may not supply adequate flow.
Best not to trust the gpm readout on the Alpha as proof of adequate flow. The indicated gpm on the Alpha is a calculation not an actual flow measurement. I've seen them read 1 gpm with the isolation valve closed!
If you do not have a flow meter or have calculated the flow rate at the smallest zone, you could watch the delta T across the boiler at that lowest load condition.
While the fire tube design is more forgiving regarding flow then the water tube design it does have limitations.
Most of the suppliers I visit now suggest P/S or a hydrosep as the installer may not be versed in flow rate calculations.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I am doubting my parts and plan altogether as I read more...hot rod said:Somehow you need to assure that 1 gpm flow at the lowest load, smallest zone. The Alpha, depending on which setting you use, may not supply adequate flow.
Best not to trust the gpm readout on the Alpha as proof of adequate flow. The indicated gpm on the Alpha is a calculation not an actual flow measurement. I've seen them read 1 gpm with the isolation valve closed!
If you do not have a flow meter or have calculated the flow rate at the smallest zone, you could watch the delta T across the boiler at that lowest load condition.
While the fire tube design is more forgiving regarding flow then the water tube design it does have limitations.
Most of the suppliers I visit now suggest P/S or a hydrosep as the installer may not be versed in flow rate calculations.
I went with Alpha2 per NY-Rob recommendation.
I have no idea about flow rate in my system
3 zone , direct pump with zone valve, I have temp read out for in and out on all zones, so that can help.
so how is the alpha2 usually installed then?
does the boiler provide the 110v it needs and turn it on and off?
in that case, do I need to put an outlet fed from the boiler and plug the pump in?
I am still not clear what goes wrong if the pump is left on the return.
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It is virtually impossible to direct pipe the UFT and result in less than 1 GPM to the boiler. The boiler requires 1" piping and anyone (including the least competent) will drop the size to no less than 3/4" for the distribution system. Any pump utilized will flow higher than 1 GPM in that scenario even if the EL is 300 feet. However, the boiler's control system will struggle with any flow rate less than approx. 2 GPM. It's not quite fast enough to respond to rapid temperature change at 1 GPM and I would not advise crowding that limit. It is highly unlikely that the Alpha will deliver anything less than 2 GPM even on the lowest possible flow rate.0
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The Dirtmag is primarily that: a dirt separator. And while it will remove some air, it's required to be in the return line to remove system debris before they get to the boiler.doctorman said:
1) I am using caleffi discal dirtmag air eliminator, the bottom of that is the purge valve to clean it out not to connect to the expansion tank.Ironman said:No, move the pump to the supply with the expansion tank connected just upstream (before it). That way it's "pumping away" from the expansion tank.
You should connect the expansion tank to the bottom of the air separator as the diagram shows.
2) what could be the issue if I have the pump on the return?
practically what issue will I see in that scenario? I am not arguing about it, I am just not clear
To properly remove air from the system you need an air separator (MBR) on the supply line, just down stream of the boiler where the water is hottest. That's what every diagram in the manual shows and they're are several technical reasons for that location. These, plus what hot rod stated in the last post, are the reason he suggested the Sep4 low loss header. It performs all 4 functions: hydraulic separation (p/s), MBR, dirt separator and magnetic separation.
I think you may have assumed that the Dirtmag would have taken the place of a properly placed air separator, but that's not the case. With baseboard radiators, you need to remove as much air as possible BEFORE it gets in them.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Ironman said:
The Dirtmag is primarily that: a dirt separator. And while it will remove some air, it's required to be in the return line to remove system debris before they get to the boiler.doctorman said:
1) I am using caleffi discal dirtmag air eliminator, the bottom of that is the purge valve to clean it out not to connect to the expansion tank.Ironman said:No, move the pump to the supply with the expansion tank connected just upstream (before it). That way it's "pumping away" from the expansion tank.
You should connect the expansion tank to the bottom of the air separator as the diagram shows.
2) what could be the issue if I have the pump on the return?
practically what issue will I see in that scenario? I am not arguing about it, I am just not clear
To properly remove air from the system you need an air separator (MBR) on the supply line, just down stream of the boiler where the water is hottest. That's what every diagram in the manual shows and they're are several technical reasons for that location. These, plus what hot rod stated in the last post, are the reason he suggested the Sep4 low loss header. It performs all 4 functions: hydraulic separation (p/s), MBR, dirt separator and magnetic separation.
I think you may have assumed that the Dirtmag would have taken the place of a properly placed air separator, but that's not the case. With baseboard radiators, you need to remove as much air as possible BEFORE it gets in them.
dirt mag has a strong air eliminator and it is installed on the outlet per the instruction it comes with.
only the models without air eliminator install on the return.0 -
Okay, if it goes on the supply line, then how will it stop debris from getting in the boiler? And if you put the circ on the return, then how will it stop debris before it gets in it?Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
it cleans the water... before or afterIronman said:Okay, if it goes on the supply line, then how will it stop debris from getting in the boiler? And if you put the circ on the return, then how will it stop debris before it gets in it?
that combined with an inhibitor should keep the system clean
https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/03555-15na.pdf
I hear your point but I went with that model again because it was recommended to me here.
paid almost 80$ more for that instead of the one without the airvent...
how is the circl pump location affect the filter0 -
If you have a DiscalDirtMag, yes you have a decision to make.
Always the very best place for a air removal device is at the supply right out of the boiler.
Dirt protection is often installed at the return.
I suggest the bigger goal is complete and efficient air removal, so place a 3 in 1 device at the boiler supply.
It will get all the small particles removed down to a 5 micron within 40- 50 trips through the device, so even on the supply you get dirt removal.
If it is just a DirtMag, it really doesn't have the best air elimination function. Although I have seen them installed with a float type air vent in the top and get reports of good air removal.
Here is an example of air, dirt, and combination units.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I have no question over the placment of this , on the supply to get rid of air and dirt will do just fine.hot rod said:If you have a DiscalDirtMag, yes you have a decision to make.
I suggest the bigger goal is complete and efficient air removal, so place a 3 in 1 device at the boiler supply.
It will get all the small particles removed down to a 5 micron within 40- 50 trips through the device, so even on the supply you get dirt removal.
my issue is understanding the placment of the pump..
1) what could go wrong by having my pupm at the return in a direct pump setup?
2) do I connect the alpha2 pump to the UFT boiler somehow? if not how doe the pump know when to work?
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> @doctorman said:
> Somehow you need to assure that 1 gpm flow at the lowest load, smallest zone. The Alpha, depending on which setting you use, may not supply adequate flow.
>
> Best not to trust the gpm readout on the Alpha as proof of adequate flow. The indicated gpm on the Alpha is a calculation not an actual flow measurement. I've seen them read 1 gpm with the isolation valve closed!
>
> If you do not have a flow meter or have calculated the flow rate at the smallest zone, you could watch the delta T across the boiler at that lowest load condition.
>
> While the fire tube design is more forgiving regarding flow then the water tube design it does have limitations.
>
> Most of the suppliers I visit now suggest P/S or a hydrosep as the installer may not be versed in flow rate calculations.
>
> I am doubting my parts and plan altogether as I read more...
>
> I went with Alpha2 per NY-Rob recommendation.
> I have no idea about flow rate in my system
> 3 zone , direct pump with zone valve, I have temp read out for in and out on all zones, so that can help.
>
> so how is the alpha2 usually installed then?
> does the boiler provide the 110v it needs and turn it on and off?
> in that case, do I need to put an outlet fed from the boiler and plug the pump in?
>
> I am still not clear what goes wrong if the pump is left on the return.
You have to follow the instructions for the pump. The adaptive feature will not work if the power is cut at the end of the heat call, unless they have re designed it. It gets constant power. When all the zone valves close it will sense the pressure and stop.0 -
Leon82 said:
You have to follow the instructions for the pump. The adaptive feature will not work if the power is cut at the end of the heat call, unless they have re designed it. It gets constant power. When all the zone valves close it will sense the pressure and stop.
1) so the Alpha2 plugged into a regular wall outlet and we are good to go... no connection to the boiler...
2) still unclear how to explain to the plumber that the pump has to be in the supply line after the Exp. Tank.
what happens if it is not there?
3) differential pressure bypass valve
I did not notice my plumber putting such a thing.. is that required as the diagram? not quite sure I understand what it does and since I am in the middle of the install I have very little time to research all these...
4)Swing valve check at the end of the return...
necessary?
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found the answer to my Q #3 differential pressure bypass valve:
here :
https://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/blog/how-does-differential-pressure-bypass-valve-work
"DPBV's are not needed when using a pressure-controlled variable speed pump"
I assume that is referring to Alpha2 pump... so I won't need DPBV, correct?
---Update---------
http://lp.us.grundfos.com/rs/100-PJL-037/images/ALPHA1 Quick Guide.pdf
Page 15
DPBV's are not needed for Alpha pumps
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The answer to Q #2..
seems to be here
http://lp.us.grundfos.com/rs/100-PJL-037/images/ALPHA1 Quick Guide.pdf
Page 4
"The added pressure causes air bubbles to shrink, which makes them less buoyant and helps carry them through the loop where they can be removed by an air elimination device such as an automatic air vent or separator. Pumping Away helps eliminate air, enhances quiet performance, and helps systems run more efficiently"
So the issue seems to the removal of air bubbles...
If I understand this
so having the circulator at the return ... umm I Honestly think I am okay with air bubbles still, the pump at the return... there is an air vent in the boiler,
another high quality micro air bubble remover at the outlet
probably the question is..
is it better to install the air eliminator before or after the Exp Tank at the outlet
--------------------
UPDATE: SPOKE with Tech at Calleffi
https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/03555-15na.pdf
I was told to install the Exp Tank before the pump as we all know at this point, but it has no problem being on the return and it might even last longer due to the cooler water of the return.
Caleffi Dirtmagcal air eliminator has to be on the outlet and will do just fine with dirt removal....
====
so my final Question remains abut connecting the Alpha2 to boiler or not
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1) yes.doctorman said:Leon82 said:
You have to follow the instructions for the pump. The adaptive feature will not work if the power is cut at the end of the heat call, unless they have re designed it. It gets constant power. When all the zone valves close it will sense the pressure and stop.
1) so the Alpha2 plugged into a regular wall outlet and we are good to go... no connection to the boiler...
2) still unclear how to explain to the plumber that the pump has to be in the supply line after the Exp. Tank.
what happens if it is not there?
3) differential pressure bypass valve
I did not notice my plumber putting such a thing.. is that required as the diagram? not quite sure I understand what it does and since I am in the middle of the install I have very little time to research all these...
4)Swing valve check at the end of the return...
necessary?
2) It's very important, but it requires a long technical explanation. I doubt that you wanna hear it based upon your response to my simple explanation earlier. And your plumber certainly doesn't seem like he cares to learn the technical side of things. Still, if you wanna know more, look at Mark Eatherton's post from about 2 weeks ago about the Point Of No Pressure Change. It's an actual video demonstration that explains it.
3) You don't need it with the Alpha since it's a delta P circulator that automatically senses pressure changes that occur when a valve opens or closes and then compensates by varying its speed from 0 to 100%. You should set to "Auto Adapt".
I would caution you to heed hot rod and Seymour Cates' posts about how pumping direct with the Alpha is not a good idea as it will conflict with the boiler's logic. You should do p/s as shown in the diagram.
4) There's no need for a swing check, in fact, check valves should never be used in conjunction with zone valves. That means that you should remove the internal flow check from the Alpha, because you'll be creating a section of piping that will be isolated from the expansion tank when the zone valves close if you don't. I know the diagram shows it, but it also shows a pressure differential bypass which you won't use with the Alpha.
Can I add a note? Hydronics systems require proper design as well as proper installation and no two systems are exactly the same. There are many different methods, and sometimes more than one is viable for a particular job. However, you can't necessarily mix methods and components. In fact, most of the time, you can't. You came here primarily asking about components and not system design, which would have dictated which components to use. Now that you're in the middle of the installation, you're discovering the importance of proper design and that you can't just use any component with any type of system design. In other words, you put the cart before the horse. Please, pump the brakes for a moment and take the time to get it right now, before going any further and then having to correct it. Follow the p/s diagram (less the PDB valve) and tell your plumber to do so whether he understands it or agrees with it.
We're trying to help you get it right.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.2 -
All correct.
The Alpha IF operated in one of the ∆P modes can be plugged directly into the wall receptacle.
If it is ever operated in one of the fixed speed modes then either a pressure bypass valve, or just fire the pump on a heat call.
I believe the manufacturer prefers to see the ECM pump powered constantly, the power consumption is only a few watts in standby mode.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream-1 -
Spoke with Customer service, very hard number to fine...
Grundfos Alpha2 (800) 333 1366
99163906 ALPHA2 15-55F/LC Cast Iron Circulator Pump (w/Line Cord)
No need for DPBV's with Alpha
Alpha can be just plugged in to the wall , which is preffered with Auto Adapt model
they recomend the Auto adapts mode when zones are not equal in size specialy
and for summer they say do not unplug it, just put it in summer mode so it will turn on for 2 min per day so no scaling goes on the pump...
pump could be installed on return and supply as long as the expansion tank is before it.
- do I need a check vave ? one came with the pump and I am sure the plumber put it on the discharge side already... but probably not really needed.
alright... 2.5 hours on the phone with 3 companies and I have a plan now...
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