HTP UFT Tankless boiler
Comments
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^ that's an energy efficiency curve regarding return water temps and condensing not an output curve.
If you drew that curve for a standard atmospheric boiler- it would be a straight line across at 86%.
As you see, the mod-con becomes more energy efficient as return water temps drop. That's why I mentioned you never want to run a mod-con at 170-180F temps.
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NY_Rob said:
36 ft of fintube zone.
210 BTU's /ft at 120F Average Water Temp.
36x210= 7,560 BTU's zone output with 130F Supply Water temp... which will just hit condensing range with 89% efficiency.
Why would you choose a 100K Boiler with a minimum turndown of 10K BTU's when it will without a doubt short cycle on your 36' zone?
The UFT 80W with 8K minimum output will be almost a perfect fit.
36 feet baseboard + a radiator in the bathroom, not sure how to rate that... is it equal to 42 feet of baseboard?
42*210=8.8K BTU
10K input at 90% efficiency = 9K
8.8 required vs 9K minimum
that is considering people in the house can handle the longer wait time of house heating with 120 degree water. I have a feeling they will need a faster heating so they will end up with higher temp and lower efficiency...
Do the smart thermostats work well with this? like nest or ecobee ?
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So Fernox TF1 Total filter is the only model offered in USA, Omega is only sold in UK.0
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^ I believe the minimum output of the UFT-80 boiler would be 7.6KBTU's and the minimum for the UFT-100 boiler would be 9,500K BTU's.
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No waiting for heat, you generally don't use setback with mod-cons. It's kind of "set it and forget it" on the t-stat.doctorman said:...that is considering people in the house can handle the longer wait time of house heating with 120 degree water. I have a feeling they will need a faster heating so they will end up with higher temp and lower efficiency...
If you do use setback, it can only be a couple of degrees or you'll be waiting for hours to hit setpoint.
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A few other considerations. Some installers and designers get hung up on a 20° operating delta T. With condensing equipment, the return temperature drives efficiency. In some, many cases running a 30°∆ will drive the efficiency some % points.
Also when calculating BB output look at the average temperature across the loop or zone for accurate output. BB in series causes a lower temperature at the end of the loop.
The HDS design software is excellent for simulating, or confirming actual output for series BB zones.
One last thought, a few winters back the New England area had 3 or so weeks of below design temperatures. That's a tough service call to handle when the boiler is running non stop. cranking the operating aqua stat doesn't correct the shortage, by the way
Sizing at or a tad below design doesn't leave any wiggle room. Keeping in mind a heat loss calculation is a "best guesstimate" all based on inputs and weather whims.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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obviously I am not a plumber but the logically the temp the water is return to the boiler is reached byhot rod said:A few other considerations. Some installers and designers get hung up on a 20° operating delta T. With condensing equipment, the return temperature drives efficiency. In some, many cases running a 30°∆ will drive the efficiency some % points.
Also when calculating BB output look at the average temperature across the loop or zone for accurate output. BB in series causes a lower temperature at the end of the loop.
The HDS design software is excellent for simulating, or confirming actual output for series BB zones.
One last thought, a few winters back the New England area had 3 or so weeks of below design temperatures. That's a tough service call to handle when the boiler is running non stop. cranking the operating aqua stat doesn't correct the shortage, by the way
Sizing at or a tad below design doesn't leave any wiggle room. Keeping in mind a heat loss calculation is a "best guesstimate" all based on inputs and weather whims.
-how fast the flow is and
-how long the baseboard
-and how much tempretuatre difference there is between the water in the pipe and the enviroment.
-what temp the water leaves the boiler at
Their are 2 variables that the boiler can adjust, the temp of the outgoing water and the flow.
Do HTP UFT boilers have settings for those 2?
it sounds like a setting that a geeky customer might be able to fine tune during the year.
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Geeky customer, yeah a modcon is a good boiler for nerds. LOL!
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doctorman said:
obviously I am not a plumber but the logically the temp the water is return to the boiler is reached byhot rod said:A few other considerations. Some installers and designers get hung up on a 20° operating delta T. With condensing equipment, the return temperature drives efficiency. In some, many cases running a 30°∆ will drive the efficiency some % points.
Also when calculating BB output look at the average temperature across the loop or zone for accurate output. BB in series causes a lower temperature at the end of the loop.
The HDS design software is excellent for simulating, or confirming actual output for series BB zones.
One last thought, a few winters back the New England area had 3 or so weeks of below design temperatures. That's a tough service call to handle when the boiler is running non stop. cranking the operating aqua stat doesn't correct the shortage, by the way
Sizing at or a tad below design doesn't leave any wiggle room. Keeping in mind a heat loss calculation is a "best guesstimate" all based on inputs and weather whims.
-how fast the flow is and
-how long the baseboard
-and how much tempretuatre difference there is between the water in the pipe and the enviroment.
-what temp the water leaves the boiler at
Their are 2 variables that the boiler can adjust, the temp of the outgoing water and the flow.
Do HTP UFT boilers have settings for those 2?
Thermal equilibrium is what you boiler strives for and will reach, unless artificial conditions are put on it. Like aquastat and high limits Think about where you boiler would operate if all the controls were removed, it would find equalibrium. But it may not be a point you want the system to operate at!
The heat emitters connected to a boiler dictate the operating conditions.
When we talk about efficiency defined it is the amount of energy input divided by the amount of energy output.
So several efficiencies come into play in heating a building
.
Boiler efficiency=how much fossil fuel goes in divided by how much energy comes out.
Distribution efficiency the rate of heat delivery divided by the energy, watts, required.
And building efficiency, how much energy goes in and how much leaks out.
So first spend $$ on making the structure as high or efficient as possible, but keep it healthy.
Design for the lowest supply operating temperatures, and lowest possible return to a condensing appliance. European panel rads design around 30- 40 ∆T for efficiency reasons. It will take more surface area, or more feet of fin tube to leverage low temperatures, it's a $$ balance point.
ECM technology for circulations, ZVs not a wall of circulators for small zoning. It is rare to find a residential application that cannot be circulated with a single circ pump these days. Some styles of ZVs use no electricity when in full open position.
I'm of the opinion that the ∆T in the distribution does and should vary. The load is dynamic, always changing, so should the input within reason.
On a cold home start up expect to see a high ∆, regardless of what delta you selected for design. As the room and the heat emitters warm the space the ∆ tightens. Radiant floors design around a 10- 15 for ultimate comfort. Just before reaching setpoint you may see a 3- 5 ∆
Some more reading on these concepts.
https://www.pmmag.com/articles/96839-finding-the-equalibrium-between-thermal-and-hydraulic-conditions
it sounds like a setting that a geeky customer might be able to fine tune during the year.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Your CH pump will control the flow if you use a multispeed or DP ECM pump like the Grundfoss Alpha.doctorman said:Their are 2 variables that the boiler can adjust, the temp of the outgoing water and the flow.
Do HTP UFT boilers have settings for those 2?
The HTP UFT boiler has settings for:
Min outdoor temp
Max outdoor temp
Minimum CH supply temp
Max CH supply temp
You enter your desired values in the installer menu, and by reading the outdoor temp sensor the boiler calculates the CH water temp based on your high and low CH values and min/max outdoor temps. It's a constantly moving target. The boiler will modulate it's firing rate based on SWT and RWT to stay near high limit for the current outdoor temp without overshoot.
Below is the default ODR curve from HTP...
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Correct the ability to move the boilers output needs to be in the equation.
It's described as an old, drafty home with questionable windows. A room by room load calc would be the best first step.
Secondly I'd look at ways to reduce the load especially if it is 30 btu/ft as suggested along the thread? "Drafty" is a bigger energy stealer then just cold. Find and eliminate the drafts. A blower door test would be a good investment to show the leaks.
Size the boiler to that adjusted load after any improvements and add or confirm there is enough heat emitter.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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Yes insulation is the gift that keeps on giving in all seasons. I’ll never argue over emitterization, other than the cost of it to do so.Which is a gift that keeps giving in the heating season.0
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thanks for theNY_Rob said:
Your CH pump will control the flow if you use a multispeed or DP ECM pump like the Grundfoss Alpha.doctorman said:Their are 2 variables that the boiler can adjust, the temp of the outgoing water and the flow.
Do HTP UFT boilers have settings for those 2?
The HTP UFT boiler has settings for:
Min outdoor temp
Max outdoor temp
Minimum CH supply temp
Max CH supply temp
You enter your desired values in the installer menu, and by reading the outdoor temp sensor the boiler calculates the CH water temp based on your high and low CH values and min/max outdoor temps. It's a constantly moving target. The boiler will modulate it's firing rate based on SWT and RWT to stay near high limit for the current outdoor temp without overshoot.
Below is the default ODR curve from HTP...
NY-Rob great info...
wow, I just learned how far the circulating pumps have come...
I would never let my plumber sell me a crappy pump now lol
Grundfos Alpha2 or Alpha3 look amazing, I assume I need stainless steel for heating (not cast iron).
so Auto Adapt technology is as good as it sounds?
Alpha 2 seams to have that not alpha1.
also, Alpha3 demo videos are really cool but not sure if it is available.
as for the zone valves and other components of the system would appreciate your input.
So one Grundfos Alpha2 pump can handle almost any residential job?
I have another project with a house with around 5000 sqft, mix of baseboard and hydronic-air system that I will post about in another thread, wonder if I can get one of these pumps for there as well.
finally.. 3yrs warranty is the best in the market for a good circulating pump?
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The cast iron Alpha is suitable for standard closed loop hydronic systems, no need or benefit to spend $$$ on SS.
"Auto Adapt" works for some, not suitable for all situations.
You have to closely observe the output GPM rate under all configurations (zones open/closed/hi-fire, etc..) before committing to "Auto" mode. In my system, "Auto" would underflow my highest head zone by just a bit, so I switched to CP speed 1 and that works perfectly.
Alpha2 is the newer version of the original Alpha, same control feature set- but the Alpha2 has added protection against magnetic particles that may be in your CH water.
In the end it's still only a 1/12 hp (IIRC) pump, so it has it's limitations, but with seven speed/pressure settings it can fit into many average size systems.
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so with alpha2 I would not need the magnetic filter (TF1)? is it hard to purge and clean it up, TF1 seams so easy to clean up.NY_Rob said:The cast iron Alpha is suitable for standard closed loop hydronic systems, no need or benefit to spend $$$ on SS.
"Auto Adapt" works for some, not suitable for all situations.
You have to closely observe the output GPM rate under all configurations (zones open/closed/hi-fire, etc..) before committing to "Auto" mode. In my system, "Auto" would underflow my highest head zone by just a bit, so I switched to CP speed 1 and that works perfectly.
Alpha2 is the newer version of the original Alpha, same control feature set- but the Alpha2 has added protection against magnetic particles that may be in your CH water.
In the end it's still only a 1/12 hp (IIRC) pump, so it has it's limitations, but with seven speed/pressure settings it can fit into many average size systems.0 -
I would still recommend a magnetic device. you can buy multi purpose air/dirt/ magnetic separators, get all functions in one "box"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Dirtmag... as good as it gets!
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-546196A-1-Sweat-5461-Series-DISCAL-DIRTMAG-Air-Dirt-Separator-with-Magnet-1 -
looks great, not sure why Fernox TF1 was mentioned before and not that. that looks better.NY_Rob said:Dirtmag... as good as it gets!
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-546196A-1-Sweat-5461-Series-DISCAL-DIRTMAG-Air-Dirt-Separator-with-Magnet
so
1x UFT Boiler
1x DISCAL-DIRTMAG Filter/air vent
1x Grundfos Alpha2
3x Taco Zone Sentry, 3/4"
1x Xtrol 30 Expansion tank
1x zone valve controller - possibly
hoping AFSupply has them in stock.. let's get this party started
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Zone valve controller-1
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The HTP UFT is a no-frills boiler, it's almost half the price of the same size Lochinvar, etc.. It does not have a built in zone controller (device that activates your zone valves and tells the boiler there is a call for heat). You need to provide one in addition to zone valves.
If you have a simple system with only a few t-stats you can control the zone valves directly from the T-stats.
Wire per the diagram below to use zone valves without a zone controller...
FWIW- many here like the Taco Zone Sentry Zone Valves:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-Z075C2-1-3-4-Zone-Sentry-Zone-Valve-Sweat
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No, I have never done plumbing.NY_Rob said:
Are you installing the boiler yourself?doctorman said:hoping AFSupply has them in stock.. let's get this party started
most installers I speak with are not very knowledgeable about condensing boilers, or the newest technology out there.
It has become my experience that most people in the construction business know something from years ago when they started in the business and hate to change or do not care to look for new things out there.
The very good plumbers that have the knowledge and are caring are not available at this time of the year or charge 2 to 3 times others.. which I understand...
so I am trying to learn as much as I can and chose the best material and learn the basic so if things dont look right I can stop it or question it. with coordination with the installer, we will come up with something good without breaking the bank.
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^ Sounds like a plan!
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should I install a pressure/temperature monitor in line at the outlet and the return or the UFT boiler has the feature built in?0
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Pressure gauge is built in to the boiler, but you literally have to crawl under the UFT to see it (and it's tiny)... do yourself a favor and install a second one in an easy to see location.
Quite a few of us use the Azel DS-60P Digital Temp Gauge to monitor supply and returns. If you have three zones, purchase two units- that will give you four probes.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Azel-Technologies-DS-60P-Dual-Zone-Digital-Temperature-Gauge-with-Two-Universal-Sensor-Probes?gclid=Cj0KCQiA38jRBRCQARIsACEqIetjyvyokSyIteS0-QmhP2IlzJ-LG3OxP-ESnEMpD-OqgeP0Nj50usYaAm7xEALw_wcB
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I'd second Robs advice about a good quality pressure gauge. Most gauges supplied with the boilers are low quality combi gauges.
I like a liquid filled, stainless steel type. Also available in rear mount. The last longer in the service trucks also.
A bit more $$, but what good is an inaccurate gauge?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Saw the pressure gauge at the bottom of UFT.NY_Rob said:Pressure gauge is built in to the boiler, but you literally have to crawl under the UFT to see it (and it's tiny)... do yourself a favor and install a second one in an easy to see location.
Quite a few of us use the Azel DS-60P Digital Temp Gauge to monitor supply and returns. If you have three zones, purchase two units- that will give you four probes.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Azel-Technologies-DS-60P-Dual-Zone-Digital-Temperature-Gauge-with-Two-Universal-Sensor-Probes?gclid=Cj0KCQiA38jRBRCQARIsACEqIetjyvyokSyIteS0-QmhP2IlzJ-LG3OxP-ESnEMpD-OqgeP0Nj50usYaAm7xEALw_wcB
makes sense to put external gauges.
not sure why you would not recommend the mechanical ones like this
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-TR25-CB1-60-250-1-4-NPT-25-Face-Temperature-Pressure-Gauge-Tridicator-6265000-p
no digital part to go bad and 4 of them is 50$
am I missing something?0 -
^ I like the min/max feature, and you can easily relocate the probes if you'd like to test other areas. You also don't have to break the pipe to use the digital gauge.
It's also nice to have everything in one place for a quick "status check"....
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that won't give you the pressure...NY_Rob said:^ I like the min/max feature, and you can easily relocate the probes if you'd like to test other areas. You also don't have to break the pipe to use the digital gauge.
It's also nice to have everything in one place for a quick "status check"....
do I care for the pressure reading?
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doctorman said:
Saw the pressure gauge at the bottom of UFT.NY_Rob said:Pressure gauge is built in to the boiler, but you literally have to crawl under the UFT to see it (and it's tiny)... do yourself a favor and install a second one in an easy to see location.
Quite a few of us use the Azel DS-60P Digital Temp Gauge to monitor supply and returns. If you have three zones, purchase two units- that will give you four probes.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Azel-Technologies-DS-60P-Dual-Zone-Digital-Temperature-Gauge-with-Two-Universal-Sensor-Probes?gclid=Cj0KCQiA38jRBRCQARIsACEqIetjyvyokSyIteS0-QmhP2IlzJ-LG3OxP-ESnEMpD-OqgeP0Nj50usYaAm7xEALw_wcB
makes sense to put external gauges.
not sure why you would not recommend the mechanical ones like this
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-TR25-CB1-60-250-1-4-NPT-25-Face-Temperature-Pressure-Gauge-Tridicator-6265000-p
no digital part to go bad and 4 of them is 50$
A gauge in that price range is usually an economy grade. You kinda get what you pay for with gauges.
am I missing something?Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Yes, you need a pressure gauge, there is a perfect spot to add one right on top of the boiler where they have that useless hy-vent (which you can remove because you will be installing the Caleffi DirtMag).-1
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alright .. one fluid-filled pressure gauge for the outlet,NY_Rob said:Yes, you need a pressure gauge, there is a perfect spot to add one right on top of the boiler where they have that useless hy-vent (which you can remove because you will be installing the Caleffi DirtMag).
chemical cleaners and inhibitors...
any recommendation on those?
Perhaps Sentinel X400 to clean the system and then flush and run X100?
not sure how much I need though, it says 1 quart good for 25gallon system.0 -
sorry guys 1 more question...
trying to order the mag filter.. so many choices
The DISCALDIRTMAG does air , but it is priced 1/3 higher
and hte instruction shows it needs to be installed on the outlet hot side .
https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/03555-15na.pdf
Is it much better to have the air vent in this unit?
Dirtmag 5463 brass body is the same without the air and installs on the return.
Dirtmag NA5453 has a plastic body rated for upto 45psi and Manual screw air vent. and largest diameter is 1"
The UFT boiler has 1 1/4" out and in
my zones will be 3/4" baseboard.
does the filter have to be 1 1/4" or can I use the 1"
(1 1/4" is a bit harder to get)
Caleffi
546197A 1-1/4" Sweat DISCAL-DIRTMAG Filter/air vent
vs.
546196A 1" Sweat DISCALDIRTMAG
vs.
546116A 1" Male NPT DISCALDIRTMAG
soldering brass is not an issue right?
the cast iron part does not interfere with the soldering?
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You might want to find an installer and ask him if he will install parts you purchased.... many won't.
That's why I asked earlier if you will be installing the boiler.0 -
Is the air vent on the UFT boiler really bad enough to require a separate air eliminator?
Do I really need the inline air eliminator?NY_Rob said:You might want to find an installer and ask him if he will install parts you purchased.... many won't.
That's why I asked earlier if you will be installing the boiler.0 -
I would switch out the can vent on the UFT to a key vent to quickly remove air from the boiler itself. I would NOT install the boiler without air elimination (Micro bubble removal)-1
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the UFT has 1/4" connector for the air vent?Shane said:I would switch out the can vent on the UFT to a key vent to quickly remove air from the boiler itself. I would NOT install the boiler without air elimination (Micro bubble removal)
http://www.shophtp.com/ecommerce/product/7855p-063/air-vent
so if I put key vent do I need the inline airvent as well?
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