Steam Boiler Comparison help

katelamb

j a_2

Negative on the heat loss, nice to know, but it's useless when sizing a steam boiler....On a swap out situation. Manufacture specs on piping are a minimum. A true steam guy will make some changes,all in an effort to make your system work better...Be sure to keep us in the loop..Don't forget, the other factors, like make up air and venting both overlooked at times...By venting I mean chimney venting...

gerry gill

im confused. Money to change the boiler seems to be an issue but there is talk of finishing the basement???

New England SteamWorks

The best steam boiler, for what it's worth, is the Burnham 3-pass MegaSteam. Hands down better than any other residential steamer. And not pricey. The only caveat is that it is oil only. But an oil tank is a small price to pay for such an efficient, and long lasting, boiler.

HVACNUT

> @New England SteamWorks said:
> The best steam boiler, for what it's worth, is the Burnham 3-pass MegaSteam. Hands down better than any other residential steamer. And not pricey. The only caveat is that it is oil only. But an oil tank is a small price to pay for such an efficient, and long lasting, boiler.
>
>
>> When you say "oil only", can you install a gas conversion burner?

New England SteamWorks

Gas burner not approved by Burnham, unfortunately.

ChrisJ

HVACNUT said:

> @New England SteamWorks said:

> The best steam boiler, for what it's worth, is the Burnham 3-pass MegaSteam. Hands down better than any other residential steamer. And not pricey. The only caveat is that it is oil only. But an oil tank is a small price to pay for such an efficient, and long lasting, boiler.

>

>

>> When you say "oil only", can you install a gas conversion burner?

No,
That's what's meant by "oil only" in this case.

Burnham won't approve of gas conversion burners for some mysterious reason.

It works..........but forget about using any warranty with them. Not that the warranty means much anyway.

j a_2

ChrisJ said:

HVACNUT said:

> @New England SteamWorks said:

> The best steam boiler, for what it's worth, is the Burnham 3-pass MegaSteam. Hands down better than any other residential steamer. And not pricey. The only caveat is that it is oil only. But an oil tank is a small price to pay for such an efficient, and long lasting, boiler.

>

>

>> When you say "oil only", can you install a gas conversion burner?

No,
That's what's meant by "oil only" in this case.

Burnham won't approve of gas conversion burners for some mysterious reason.

It works..........but forget about using any warranty with them. Not that the warranty means much anyway.

Not only warranty, but permits for approved appliance, and gosh forbid your insurance company...And when you go to sell the property, the home inspector may be savoy enough to catch it...Lots can go wrong...

ChrisJ

j a said:

ChrisJ said:

HVACNUT said:

> @New England SteamWorks said:

> The best steam boiler, for what it's worth, is the Burnham 3-pass MegaSteam. Hands down better than any other residential steamer. And not pricey. The only caveat is that it is oil only. But an oil tank is a small price to pay for such an efficient, and long lasting, boiler.

>

>

>> When you say "oil only", can you install a gas conversion burner?

No,
That's what's meant by "oil only" in this case.

Burnham won't approve of gas conversion burners for some mysterious reason.

It works..........but forget about using any warranty with them. Not that the warranty means much anyway.

Not only warranty, but permits for approved appliance, and gosh forbid your insurance company...And when you go to sell the property, the home inspector may be savoy enough to catch it...Lots can go wrong...

Most of your points are good, but unless it's a missing GFCI in a kitchen or bathroom, the home inspector isn't going to catch it.

j a_2

Yup but he would be the least of my worries...Around here if there just happens to be an issue and the insurance co. As I have seen sends out a licensed plumber and he sees a obvious violation, it's the end of story...He does an about face, gets his money for the trip out...Owner gets a certified letter, you now have no coverage...Mr converter whoever it may be will surly be getting a lawyer letter...Possibly even the previous home owner if he was the installer..Liabilty never seems to end

ChrisJ

j a said:

Yup but he would be the least of my worries...Around here if there just happens to be an issue and the insurance co. As I have seen sends out a licensed plumber and he sees a obvious violation, it's the end of story...He does an about face, gets his money for the trip out...Owner gets a certified letter, you now have no coverage...Mr converter whoever it may be will surly be getting a lawyer letter...Possibly even the previous home owner if he was the installer..Liabilty never seems to end

What happens when the boiler mfger says no, but the conversion burner mfger says yes?

j a_2

Never tested those waters, but in the end the poor owner who put his trust in the people he hired will suffer the most...If BURNHAM says no then it's plain and simple no...That is fact

HVACNUT

I just read the Mega Steam I&O manual. It does clearly state you cannot convert to Nat or LP gas, but doesn't explain why. Condensing flue gasses? Could it be that much lower than using (AFG or NX). I don't know which.
Just out of curiosity, I think I'll call US Boiler on Monday. They're using the CYA clause for sure.

j a_2

FYI there are some models,more commercial that are convertible..not sure of model numbers....Licenced installed have to go by the book, home owners, I quess can do what they ever so desire...but still will be liable, and that's key...Town houses and condos up here have very strict rules, as to hiring contractors to work on the property, with very good reason

ChrisJ

> @j a said:
> FYI there are some models,more commercial that are convertible..not sure of model numbers....Licenced installed have to go by the book, home owners, I quess can do what they ever so desire...but still will be liable, and that's key...Town houses and condos up here have very strict rules, as to hiring contractors to work on the property, with very good reason

Because MA sucks?

j a_2

ChrisJ said:

> @j a said:

> FYI there are some models,more commercial that are convertible..not sure of model numbers....Licenced installed have to go by the book, home owners, I quess can do what they ever so desire...but still will be liable, and that's key...Town houses and condos up here have very strict rules, as to hiring contractors to work on the property, with very good reason



Because MA sucks?

That's a good question....I'll ask around

katelamb

> > @New England SteamWorks said:
> > The best steam boiler, for what it's worth, is the Burnham 3-pass MegaSteam. Hands down better than any other residential steamer. And not pricey. The only caveat is that it is oil only. But an oil tank is a small price to pay for such an efficient, and long lasting, boiler.
> >
>

How would one convert from gas to oil? How large are modern oil tanks these days? We still have natural gas for hot water and cooking... but then again, we do at our rental property as well, and we have oil fueled hot water rads there, so it's possible to split it all up... I suppose I'd be interested in the cost of conversion and overall energy and cost savings of oil over a comparable gas powered boiler

Steamhead

I wouldn't go to oil- you'll have trouble finding someone who can maintain it properly, and there's always the chance the oil company will let you run out of oil. This from a guy who still heats his own house with oil.

Burnham has consistently stonewalled us when it comes to running gas burners in the MegaSteam. From a business standpoint this is insane- oil heat is a dying market except where natural gas is not available. They could sell a lot more MegaSteams if they weren't so uptight about using gas burners in them.

Take a look at the Slant/Fin Intrepid series. We have a bunch of these with Carlin and Midco gas burners in them, and they run great. Here's a video of one:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/161736/flir-video-of-slant-fin-intrepid-boiler-fired-with-carlin-ez-gas-burner

j a_2

I to still heat my house with oil, luckily I am capable of maintaining it...Gas,two doors up but I will not spend 10K to bring it down as a on main extension....As a prior contractor, weather I agreed or not about converting, boilers over, I just did not want to put myself in a position to go against the manufactures recommendations, as that is what is preached to us by our governing powers to be...I saw it as I had no choice.....

New England SteamWorks

Steamhead said:

I wouldn't go to oil- you'll have trouble finding someone who can maintain it properly, and there's always the chance the oil company will let you run out of oil. This from a guy who still heats his own house with oil.

Sigh...

katelamb

We'll have photos of the header hopefully tomorrow - we finally had all the asbestos removed from our pipes so we can see what we're working with!

mynameisphunk

mynameisphunk

@Steamhead - I'll give you a call tomorrow. I'll PM you my phone number again as well.

SteamCoffee

Iirc the homeowner was referring earlier to moving the boiler? It might be a good time to get rid of the water heater and go with indirect hot water....

mynameisphunk

The options I have so far from local contractors don't seem great (at least by Steamhead's opinion of the products), but at least in this smallish town in south central Pennsylvania, it seems like my options in order to have good post-install support and proper installation are all going to be atmospheric boilers. So far, I have quotes for Bryant, Burnham, and Slant/Fin - but all atmospheric (the Slant/Fin contractor looked at me funny when I asked about an Intrepid boiler with a power burner).

Given the three of those options, which manufacturer makes the least hateful atmospheric gas boiler to live with, assuming all are installed properly?

Steamhead

If that's the choice you have, go with the Slant/Fin Galaxy.

KC_Jones

The important part is to size and install it correctly. Make sure there are specifics in the contract about proper piping per manufacturers specs.

And sizing, if you want to double check them we can help with that. The calcs aren't to involved for steam. Just need to measure the radiators. I would highly recommend you do this, when I got quotes (Hanover also) none of them sized correctly.

katelamb

I believe Frank measured 340 sq ft of radiation. We don't have the Slant/Fin quote in-hand yet (not sure if we can mention specific contractors on the forum, though I know we can't discuss price. Would be interested to know who you had quite locally though) When we get that quote we can post their recommended size and double check that it's correct.


> @KC_Jones said:
> The important part is to size and install it correctly. Make sure there are specifics in the contract about proper piping per manufacturers specs.
>
> And sizing, if you want to double check them we can help with that. The calcs aren't to involved for steam. Just need to measure the radiators. I would highly recommend you do this, when I got quotes (Hanover also) none of them sized correctly.

Steamhead

340.75 to be exact.

KC_Jones

I wouldn't use names, no point in my opinion. Good that you have it already, if they oversized you have the numbers and can ask for an explanation.

If you want to post the suggested boilers from the quotes we can let you know if they are right or not.

SeanBeans

Man i would love to rip out that bad boy.

Asking the pros here...

To eliminate that T how would one go about making enough space to bring bother directions down to the header?

If you were to crack that t out of therr you wohld be left with only a few inches of room to bring 90s down.. can anyone enlighten me to the best way to do that?

Cut it back and thread it in place?
Screw that run out and replace it with a shoter piece from the next fitting?

Thanks, am very curious

Ironman

Cut it back and thread it in place. A Ridgid 700 does the trick.

SeanBeans

@Ironman does the ridgid 700 have the cutting capability? Or just the threading i know you coukd cut it with a sawzall but what if youre off by a tad?

Ironman

The 700 is power drive that accepts up to 2" threaders. I'd cut it with a portable band saw.

https://youtu.be/9GoV43tD9WQ

mynameisphunk

KC_Jones said:

I wouldn't use names, no point in my opinion. Good that you have it already, if they oversized you have the numbers and can ask for an explanation.



If you want to post the suggested boilers from the quotes we can let you know if they are right or not.

We've had quotes for the Burnham PIN4SNI-ME2 (did not measure radiation, they measured heat loss), PIN5SNI-ME2, Bryant BS2AAN000150, and we're waiting on the Slant/Fin Galaxy quote.

KC_Jones

Hmm that's interesting, you actually have someone proposing a boiler that is too small by the numbers. The IN4 (rated 271) would have a 6% pickup factor the IN5 (rated 358) would be considered proper by normal standards.
The Bryant is proper within that product offering, but larger than the Burnham so its getting "up there" rated at 383
I just looked at the Slant Fin catalog and they will probably recommend the 160 (rated 408) as the next size down 120 (rated 306) would be deemed too small by current standards.

Personally I'd use the 120, but that's just me as a homeowner.

ChrisJ

I could make the IN4 to work.

Not sure about others.

mynameisphunk

@KC_Jones - why would you personally use the 120 (I don't know the reasons why/why not)? The 340sqft actually includes a radiator in the attic that hasn't been used since at least 1988 (previous homeowners never used it), but may eventually be used. What is the risk of using a slightly undersized boiler?

@ChrisJ - why the IN4 for you?

mynameisphunk

Additional question so I can understand the piping:

If we went with the Burnham IN5 and used both supply mains to the header as indicated in the manual, would the installer need to eliminate the current T from our two steam mains and have those individually come down and connect to the new header? Or can the T remain, and just have the vertical pipe connect to the new header?

Steamhead

They're trying to get away with a smaller pickup factor. But I wouldn't try that on your system.