Loosing pumps

ratio

I'm in the on-call rotation myself, I have some small understanding of what it's like. And I usually get the tap to meet those ...special... customers who can't see the value of maintenance.

Paul48

@Harvey Ramer
In this case......they have 2 short sections of pipe, with supply-supply and return-return. Why not have a set of closely spaced tees on each, for each boiler?

icy78

> @Harvey Ramer said:
> It is hydronicly correct to pipe the boiler circuits in parallel, and connecting to the system loop via 1 set of closely spaced tees or a hydraulic separator. This allows equal load to all boilers. If you had 2 sets of closely spaced tees in series, the first boiler in line could be bearing full load while the second one is short cycling under a micro load.
>
> The only thing is the piping has to all be sized correctly for the flow, and or the circs' flow rates balanced.

That's a point I missed . When I checked the boiler circs head it was on one circ only because the other one was non working. So I have not checked the boiler circs with both running! How did I forget to say that!? I'm excited to get back and find this out. Will have another pump and the new display to install, and get more pics and data.
>
> One thing that needs to be fixed on the system is the air separator. Those type of air scoops need 18" of straight pipe to the inlet, in order to work. It says it right in the manual. It should also be placed on the supply side of the closely spaced tees instead of the return.
> So we have no good air removal.

That will be a tough sell because they say they don't have air problems.
>
> The boiler circs are pumping down on a vertical pipe. If to large of an air bubble accumulates, flow will slow to a trickle and the circs will loose sufficient lubrication and burn up.

15 gpm thru a 1x1/4 cu pipe.
>
> Also, if any kind of a petroleum based contaminate remains in the system. That could kill the seals in the pump, depending on the specific material used in that pump.

Hoping TACO gets the water sample data soon.
I may have an independent analysis done too.

jumper

Are we forgetting that old pumps lasted? Obviously something changed. How does OP know pumps were running in middle of pressure head curve?

icy78

> @jumper said:
> Are we forgetting that old pumps lasted? Obviously something changed. How does OP know pumps were running in middle of pressure head curve?

Delta P via Pete's plugs.

We know nothing about how the old system ran. Neither does anyone at the facility apparently.
Yes, the piping changed. It had to. Went from one 1938 gas boiler to two mod cons.

I think at one point I said it was piped right.....as I'm learning thru this thread and thru literature suggested by some, I may have to sing a different song about that! Which is fine by me, if it means that the issue becomes resolved and I learn possibly quite a bit during this saga.

icy78

So I have a bit more info. I have not been back to the site yet as I was waiting for the water analysis results and pump failure diagnoses which haven't arrived yet. So, on @hotrods recommendation, (altho he didn't know it) I now have a PCS TESTER 35. So I sampled my back up sample of boiler water. Here's the numbers.
PH....................... 8.6
Conductivity........1135
Salt%.....................0
TDS........................895ppm
Temp at testing.....61f

I think I sampled correctly. Poured some in a glass. Immersed the sensor. Scrolled thru mode after each reading stabilized.

I think I recall from an idronics article that TDS should be 10-30. If so, is that what caused pump failure? (by slowly plugging the lubrication port)?

hot_rod

Here is the data from the current online Weil manual. It does not mention TDS as some others do. Ph, hardness, note about soft water, etc. I would suggest TDS is high and it may be chloride levels.
It does mention adding the inhibitor from Sentinel. That should be with good quality water. Sentinel may have more info on using the inhibitor?

hot_rod

The product that Weil ships and recommends. odd that they only list one. I'd suggest Rhomar and Fernox are other good options.

https://www.sentinelprotects.com/us/support/videos/the-benefits-water-treatment-hydronic-heating-systems

hot_rod

the water spec from Sentinel
They claim softened water can be used, looks like Weil strictly forbids it?

The UK water spec does now allow softened water, but a conditioner should be added also? Softening with ion exchange generally raised the TDS and conductivity due to the exchange of the salt (brine) for the hardness removed.


https://www.sentinelprotects.com/us/water-treatment-specification-guidelines

icy78

> @hot rod said:
> Here is the data from the current online Weil manual. It does not mention TDS as some others do. Ph, hardness, note about soft water, etc. I would suggest TDS is high and it may be chloride levels.
> It does mention adding the inhibitor from Sentinel. That should be with good quality water. Sentinel may have more info on using the inhibitor?

I totally missed the NO SOFTENED WATER in the manual. (Probably reading too late at night)! Both the supply house, and the guy I usually ask boiler questions of at the shop, said softened water was the best. Hmmmm. I pretty much rely on you guys now and literature I'm pointed to and my own reading. I think I'm getting too much erroneous info from my previous sources.
I see Sentinal quotes max 30mg/L dissolved solids. I had it in ppm so will have to see how that compares.
And I have to read about conductivity and it's effects.

Canucker

icy78 said:

> @hot rod said:

> Here is the data from the current online Weil manual. It does not mention TDS as some others do. Ph, hardness, note about soft water, etc. I would suggest TDS is high and it may be chloride levels.

> It does mention adding the inhibitor from Sentinel. That should be with good quality water. Sentinel may have more info on using the inhibitor?



I totally missed the NO SOFTENED WATER in the manual. (Probably reading too late at night)! Both the supply house, and the guy I usually ask boiler questions of at the shop, said softened water was the best. Hmmmm. I pretty much rely on you guys now and literature I'm pointed to and my own reading. I think I'm getting too much erroneous info from my previous sources.

I see Sentinal quotes max 30mg/L dissolved solids. I had it in ppm so will have to see how that compares.

And I have to read about conductivity and it's effects.

Wow, that's a low spec. You have 895 mg/L, if your TDS reading is accurate

Gsmith

30 mg/l = 30 ppm. each mg/l = 1 ppm and vice versa for most substances in general usage (slightly different if very exact numbers are required).

icy78

> @Canucker said:
> > @hot rod said:
>
> > Here is the data from the current online Weil manual. It does not mention TDS as some others do. Ph, hardness, note about soft water, etc. I would suggest TDS is high and it may be chloride levels.
>
> > It does mention adding the inhibitor from Sentinel. That should be with good quality water. Sentinel may have more info on using the inhibitor?
>
>
>
> I totally missed the NO SOFTENED WATER in the manual. (Probably reading too late at night)! Both the supply house, and the guy I usually ask boiler questions of at the shop, said softened water was the best. Hmmmm. I pretty much rely on you guys now and literature I'm pointed to and my own reading. I think I'm getting too much erroneous info from my previous sources.
>
> I see Sentinal quotes max 30mg/L dissolved solids. I had it in ppm so will have to see how that compares.
>
> And I have to read about conductivity and it's effects.
>
> Wow, that's a low spec. You have 895 mg/L, if your TDS reading is accurate

Yeah I did the reading three times. @Canucker said mg/L is the same as ppm. In that case I am WAY out of line, IF my memory is correct on the idronics article. (Too busy today to review it!)
Remember everyone, this is about losing the circ pumps. I would think high TDS would be the likely cause here?
( I am not ignoring the other problems that poor water quality can cause in a system though. It sure is a good example of how having better diagnostic tools can ensure a better system.)

icy78

Went back to this site today. Per Taco: "clean up the water, dirt is blocking the lubrication ports" 1 of our plumbers installed this bypass filter, and installed it incorrectly. Now, I'm wondering , if with this piping, (or say it went above the zone valve) that another piping issue arises? It seems that in this configuration, that when the building circulator runs, that it will now be pumping TOWARDS the ex tank. Or is there enough pressure drop that it is not an issue? The separator is also in the wrong location I think. Shouldn't it be between the closely spaced tees and the building pump? Also with the separator where it is now, how does that effect the PONPC for the building pump and the boiler pumps.
(I ordered Dan's book Understanding Primary Secondary piping, but haven't recieved it yet. Friday I hope.)
He's going to change the filter install but I sure want it right, so as not to have to have it changed again.
I took a fill water sample. Here's the numbers
TDS=610
SALT= 0
COND=810
PH= 7.58

Comes off an as-needed softener. I guess it flushes and regenerates only as-needed.
Weil McClain says no softened water but 7.58 is pretty good. 7-8.5 per WMc.

About the filter pic. The piping out of the filter tees into the piping running between the seperator and the ex tank.

Comments anyone? Thanks.

hot_rod

From what I can tell that is just a particle filter? That may take some debris out but it will not "fix" water that is excessively hard or high TDS, which it looks like you have.

It looks like the bypass is just in one of the zones, it may take weeks, months maybe years for all the fluid to pass thru it, and it is a small capacity filter that could need frequent replacement cartridges. Is it rated for the temperature?

Dirt and debris filters out best with a dirt separator, down to 5 micron. Installed in the main line so all flow, all the time passes through.
Particles smaller that that should be removed from the fill water ions, can either be removed by softening, not ideal but sometimes the lesser of two evils with extremely hard water. Or DI or RO water brought to the job.

But before that a cleaner and a good power flush would be a good idea, dirt and debris needs a good flow rate to flush out. You may need something like a 5 hp pump to provide enough flow to flush a large system like that unless you can isolate zones.

It's a time consuming process to properly flush old dirty systems.

I can't see enough of the piping to see where the expansion tank relates to the various pumps. With P/S piping it is a bit hard to pick the "spot"

Air seperation is best at the boiler outlet, sometimes P/S benefits from several good seps, one on the boiler, one on the primary loop.

icy78

> thanks for the reply.

@hot rod said:
> From what I can tell that is just a particle filter? That may take some debris out but it will not "fix" water that is excessively hard or high TDS, which it looks like you have.

Yes that is a 5 micron filter recommended by taco for this job.
>
> It looks like the bypass is just in one of the zones, it may take weeks, months maybe years for all the fluid to pass thru it, and it is a small capacity filter that could need frequent replacement cartridges. Is it rated for the temperature?

For sure the filter was located in the wrong place. I am just wondering if BOTH ends need to move, because when the zone valve opens the pump is pumping right at the expansion tank I think. I will post a picture at the end.
>
> Dirt and debris filters out best with a dirt separator, down to 5 micron. Installed in the main line so all flow, all the time passes through.
> Particles smaller that that should be removed from the fill water ions, can either be removed by softening, not ideal but sometimes the lesser of two evils with extremely hard water. Or DI or RO water brought to the job.
>
Good info

> But before that a cleaner and a good power flush would be a good idea, dirt and debris needs a good flow rate to flush out. You may need something like a 5 hp pump to provide enough flow to flush a large system like that unless you can isolate zones.
>
More good info

> It's a time consuming process to properly flush old dirty systems.
>
> I can't see enough of the piping to see where the expansion tank relates to the various pumps. With P/S piping it is a bit hard to pick the "spot"
>
> Air seperation is best at the boiler outlet, sometimes P/S benefits from several good seps, one on the boiler, one on the primary loop.

hot_rod

There are devices on the market, caleffi or other brands that will do exactly what you need. Not sure why a "bandaid" approach has been used?

A top brand inline mag separator like the one show in my other post can and will take down to a .05 micron, or 100 times smaller particle that what you have in there now.

If a system have magnetite, it looks like inky water, it's hard to even know that small metal particles have corroded away to form that black sludge.

Drain a sample form a low point and hold a magnet to the fluid.

I don't know that you have magnetite, but if circulators are failing from fine deposits, chances are...

Regardless if you have defined the sludge or sediment, a DirtMag will handle it quickly and efficiently.