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Loosing pumps

icy78
icy78 Member Posts: 397
Have a client whose lost 4 circ pumps in the last 6 months. 0014 taco. Amps, head, voltage, temps are good. Runs in middle of curve. Pumps are taco on WC 230 ultras, on primary loop , . Water smells really bad. Acrid, burn-your-nose smell. After it cools it smells slightly sweet but still irritates the nose. Has the x100 treatment at the correct color. Our plumber checked pH. 8.75
When I go back I figure I'll totally flush and treat the system. What do you guys think?
Jackmartin
«13

Comments

  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,709
    NPSH matters even on closed systems. Contrary to what's said.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,303
    Seizures or impeller eroded off?

    What type of system? Pex, barrier or non? Copper, Rubber tube, iron, PB, some pics of the boiler always help too.

    Flush, rinse, heat, rinse, etc.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    kcopp
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,184
    No IFC right. Glycol mix?
    Series 2 or 3? Any lockouts or codes, high return temp?
    Did you do the installation? Primary and secondary piping is correct?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,218
    Iron particles in the system. Filter or magnetic separator??
    kcopp
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited February 2017
    What is all this driving emitter wise? Tubing/piping type.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:
    > Seizures or impeller eroded off?
    >
    > What type of system? Pex, barrier or non? Copper, Rubber tube, iron, PB, some pics of the boiler always help too.
    >
    > Flush, rinse, heat, rinse, etc.

    1950s all copper fintube. Primary secondary. On second thought I think there's some cast iron rads in there too. (maybe flat, above the first floor ceiling. did see some dielectrics. Boiler was changed out about 6 years ago.> @jumper said:
    > NPSH matters even on closed systems. Contrary to what's said.

    Wouldn't that only be a possibility if they were way oversized? (On a closed system)
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    What has failed? Motors, bearings, impeller? It's easier to fix if you can narrow the possibilities. Maybe Taco would be willing to help with forensics.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,004
    Seized up I assume?

    Is the pump sized correctly, it that the size the boiler requires?

    Does it run quietly when installed? no cavitation noise.

    What is the operating pressure at the boiler?

    Does it have good air elimination?

    Pumping away from expansion tank connection?

    I'd flush, run a cleaner for a few days, refill with demineralized water.

    Sounds like it may have had glycol with the smell you describe.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @Paul48 said:
    > What has failed? Motors, bearings, impeller? It's easier to fix if you can narrow the possibilities. Maybe Taco would be willing to help with forensics.

    Yeah I'm sorry. Thought I'd said that but I didn't. On all of them the impeller seizes up.> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
    > Iron particles in the system. Filter or magnetic separator??

    There may be iron particles. I did not think of that.> @HVACNUT said:
    > No IFC right. Glycol mix?
    > Series 2 or 3? Any lockouts or codes, high return temp?
    > Did you do the installation? Primary and secondary piping is correct?

    No glycol. Only x100 treatment as far as is known. Series 3 boiler. Only fault is >58 rise which I'm atribbuting to a failed circulator. Company I work for installed it . Piping looks correct to me. If I get time later I'll draw it out otherwise it'll be pics from hopefully Monday.
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 3,815
    I presume its the primary circ off the top of the boiler. I have had a number of the 0014 go bad on this model boiler.. Each time I have replaced it w a Grundfos 26-99.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @hot rod said:
    > Seized up I assume?
    > Yes

    > Is the pump sized correctly, it that the size the boiler requires?
    > I did not personally check it. Was shipped with the boiler I'm told.


    > Does it run quietly when installed? no cavitation noise.
    > Yes runs quietly

    > What is the operating pressure at the boiler?
    > 13 psi ....I verified

    > Does it have good air elimination?
    > I saw a 3" taco air scoop. I will check closers later.

    > Pumping away from expansion tank connection?
    > I highly doubt it

    > I'd flush, run a cleaner for a few days, refill with demineralized water.
    > I believe it fills off a softener now. yes

    > Sounds like it may have had glycol with the smell you describe.
    I will dig into that.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @kcopp said:
    > I presume its the primary circ off the top of the boiler. I have had a number of the 0014 go bad on this model boiler.. Each time I have replaced it w a Grundfos 26-99.

    VERY interesting! I have lost 2, 0014 pumps this last year at another place. Zman pointed out to me there, that I was to the far left of the Curve so I got a bit educated on that. This/these run smack in the middle of the curve. 15 gpm I think it was.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    The bearings are seizing. They're not mounted with the motor up, are they?
  • Jackmartin
    Jackmartin Member Posts: 181
    You have answered your own question you say your plumber has told you you have a p.h.reading of 8.5. Neutral p.h.is 6 to seven and you want a neutral p.h in any heating system. The solution you are running now has the same p.h.level as household chlorine bleach. Someone , well meaning I am sure, has added additive to the water and it is doing nothing good. The smell is the result of the base p.h.rotting your system from the inside out .No metal of any kind deals well with oxygen or a very basic solution. Flush out the system and check everything you can for erosion then fill it with city water, the bacteria in city water once they decompose in the heating system, have a protective film. I would also suggest,as good as it sounds ,demineraluzed water has an acid phone profile it will attack the system looking to complete it's outer electron number so you will have lose of metal to the water. Do a pdf download of the Grunfoss literature on pumps it is free and a really good reference to have on your tablet. Dan has some excellent pdf downloads too;so check them out as well. All the best Jack Martin Winnipeg Canada .
  • Jackmartin
    Jackmartin Member Posts: 181
    The post I put up has phone it should read p.h. this tablet has a mind of its own!!!!! All the best Jack
    aircooled81
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @Paul48 said:
    > The bearings are seizing. They're not mounted with the motor up, are they?

    Horizontal mounting.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @Jackmartin said:
    > You have answered your own question you say your plumber has told you you have a p.h.reading of 8.5. Neutral p.h.is 6 to seven and you want a neutral p.h in any heating system. The solution you are running now has the same p.h.level as household chlorine bleach. Someone , well meaning I am sure, has added additive to the water and it is doing nothing good. The smell is the result of the base p.h.rotting your system from the inside out .No metal of any kind deals well with oxygen or a very basic solution. Flush out the system and check everything you can for erosion then fill it with city water, the bacteria in city water once they decompose in the heating system, have a protective film. I would also suggest,as good as it sounds ,demineraluzed water has an acid phone profile it will attack the system looking to complete it's outer electron number so you will have lose of metal to the water. Do a pdf download of the Grunfoss literature on pumps it is free and a really good reference to have on your tablet. Dan has some excellent pdf downloads too;so check them out as well. All the best Jack Martin Winnipeg Canada .
    >

    WC calls for 7.0 to 8.5 ph. So I am on the high end. What taco 0014 allows I don't know. Bleach checks in at 11. So I haven't read up on it but 11 would be corrosively alkaline?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,004
    Your ph doesn't mean much unless you know the chemicals in the systems. Inhibited hydronic glycols typically 9- 10.5. That system may have traces of glycol. If it did, or will have glycol it needs to be an AL, aluminum blend, running an 8- 8.5 ph.

    The Rhomar Pro-Tek treatments typically run 8- 8.5 blended with tap water. They suggest keeping it below 8.5 if it has aluminum in the system

    A perfect ph is hard to pin point when you have steel copper, aluminum, cast iron, and possibly stainless in the system. Aluminum is most sensitive to low or high ph.

    A good hydronic treatment should, when properly mixed, provide a film on all the cleaned components to help protect from aggressive fluids.

    Any water treated with RO, DM, or distillation will show a low ph. It will buffer back up to neutral within a few days from what we have experienced and documented.

    I suggest a hydronic conditioner with DM or treated water for that extra protection like film providers, ph buffers and oxygen scavengers that are in the inhibitor package.

    I doubt that 8- 8.5 ph would alone be the cause of 4 failed pumps in 6 months.

    After 2 failures with no apparent cause, it might have been time to try another brand?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Canucker
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,184
    If I am correct, the 0014 primary pump is on the return on an Ultra. Again, does it have an IFC? If so, remove it.
    Is there an indirect water heater? WH pump on the primary supply, return on WH loop enters below the primary pump. Is the WH pump wired into the boiler for priority or to the CH zone board? If wired into the zone board you might have conflicting pressure. Break out the manual and
    recheck the coding in the installer set up to make sure the parameters are correct. Not really on subject but maybe set primary and WH pumps for a 2 minute post run time.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @hot rod said:
    > Your ph doesn't mean much unless you know the chemicals in the systems. Inhibited hydronic glycols typically 9- 10.5. That system may have traces of glycol. If it did, or will have glycol it needs to be an AL, aluminum blend, running an 8- 8.5 ph.
    >
    > The Rhomar Pro-Tek treatments typically run 8- 8.5 blended with tap water. They suggest keeping it below 8.5 if it has aluminum in the system
    >
    > A perfect ph is hard to pin point when you have steel copper, aluminum, cast iron, and possibly stainless in the system. Aluminum is most sensitive to low or high ph.
    >
    > A good hydronic treatment should, when properly mixed, provide a film on all the cleaned components to help protect from aggressive fluids.
    >
    > Any water treated with RO, DM, or distillation will show a low ph. It will buffer back up to neutral within a few days from what we have experienced and documented.
    >
    > I suggest a hydronic conditioner with DM or treated water for that extra protection like film providers, ph buffers and oxygen scavengers that are in the inhibitor package.
    >
    > I doubt that 8- 8.5 ph would alone be the cause of 4 failed pumps in 6 months.
    >
    > After 2 failures with no apparent cause, it might have been time to try another brand?

    Thanks for that info. More for me to read up on!
    I agree about trying another brand. The client had no service done since install 6? years ago and had just been changing pumps. 1 at 6 months (warranty) 2 around two years, later he thought. Now 4 in the last 6 months.
    So now I'm charged with finding out why.
    Sure appreciate all the input from you all!

    Agree about the brand.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > If I am correct, the 0014 primary pump is on the return on an Ultra. Again, does it have an IFC? If so, remove it.

    No IFC

    Is there an indirect water heater? WH pump on the primary supply, return on WH loop enters below the primary pump. Is the WH pump wired into the boiler for priority or to the CH zone board? If wired into the zone board you might have conflicting pressure. Break out the manual and
    > recheck the coding in the installer set up to make sure the parameters are correct. Not really on subject but maybe set primary and WH pumps for a 2 minute post run time.

    No indirect. Post and pre purge set for 30 secs right now. I went thru all the parameters and checked them .
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,184
    I don't know man. Boiler should be going out on a hard lockout before seizing pumps. Are the supply and return sensors good? I know on the Ultras they get brittle and just hang there. Ohm them out?
    If ok, then its gotta be cavitation.
    Stupid question (don't hit me)
    Pump should be on the return. Direction is correct, pushing down into the boiler?
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,217
    Is the center hole in the impeller shaft clogging with system debris? If so, the pump could be overheating.
    Solid_Fuel_Manicy78
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,303
    edited February 2017
    I agree with @Steve Thompson (Taco) when I was a mechanic there were shops that just threw parts at a vehicle and said "must be junk parts from the supplier" when there was obviously another problem.

    Sure every brand has a bad circ from time to time, but when a system eats them annually there is a problem and it's not the pumps. Wet rotor circulators rely on the system fluid for bearing lubrication and subsequently bearing cooling. That center hole @Harvey Ramer was speaking of is where the rotor and bearings reject that fluid. I've deserted many a failed circulator and the ceramic shaft just rides in metal bushings. The pressure that the circ builds forces a small amount of fluid into the bearings and out in the center of the impeller through the hollow shaft.

    This is a 0010 that still moved but was pumping toward the PONPC and eroded the impeller from cavitation.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    icy78
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    My system consists of a cast iron boiler, gravity conversion, with cast iron radiators. The boiler water is fairly nasty, and there's never been any attempt at cleaning the system or filtering it. I have no problems with circulators failing, and I'd venture to say there are 100's of thousands of systems that the same could be said about. The circulators have ceramic shafts and(solid) carbon bearings. They are built to be extremely durable. There's something strange going on, and they'll figure it out. I'm betting it's the aluminum sealing the bearings to fluid, causing them to over-heat and fail. That's my WAG. At this point, you could say it's the aliens, and be just as right as me.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @Steve Thompson (Taco) said:
    > Sorry, disagree with the "try another brand" - and not because I am somewhat biased. Regardless of replacing a brand x with brand y (or brand y with brand x) it is obviously important to find out the root cause if the problem.
    >
    > Please call me at 401-441-2934 or send an E Mail [email protected] to arrange a CSI of the failed pumps. Probably will need you to arrange sending us a water sample for analysis as well. No way these should be failing like this.

    Awesome! I'm really happy and impressed that you are offering to help as a taco representative. I thought of changing brands because the customer is getting desperate and wanted me too. I was skeptical at best but if that's what they want I have to do it. I still HAVE to know what the root cause is personally because I want the answer. I HATE not fixing it right. I'll probably call tomorrow or Tuesday.

    thanks again
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited February 2017
    I have to say that @Steve Thompson (Taco) Is the only pump rep that frequents this site trying to make things right.

    Bottom line is as been said, finding the reason for the failures. Because if you don't, no matter what pump, or pump manufacture you throw in it will likley meet the same fate.
    icy78Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    If I'm understanding correctly the system, and it's pumps that are failing is 6 years old? And now pumps are failing back to back in a 6 month time frame?
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @Gordy said:
    > If I'm understanding correctly the system, and it's pumps that are failing is 6 years old? And now pumps are failing back to back in a 6 month time frame?

    He picked 2 pumps up at our shop about 2 months ago and changed out the seized ones. One lasted 6 weeks on the slaved boiler and the other one failed on the other boiler 2 weeks later. So both installed at the same time.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited February 2017
    Interesting.

    What I'm driving at is the original pumps that were in place before the ones installed 2 months ago that failed so quickly. Why did the original pumps last so long?

    Hopefully you are saving these failed pumps for taco to examine, and help in decifering the issues.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @Gordy said:
    > Interesting.
    >
    > What I'm driving at is the original pumps that were in place before the ones installed 2 months ago that failed so quickly. Why did the original pumps last so long?
    >
    > Hopefully you are saving these failed pumps for taco to examine, and help in decifering the issues.

    Remember they only just placed a service call. They themselves have changed all the failed pumps except the one that failed at 6 months in. They have no records of dates of other pump replacements but there are a pile of pumps in that room. Maybe they'll be able to find their purchase history. That would help.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    So hopefully I get sent there tomorrow. My plan is to save water samples, take pics, flush,flush,flush then refill off the softener , change pump (s), take new water sample, add X100 treatment and take sample. Bring pumps back. (Check pressures and piping again) and report back here. Communicate with Steve Thompson.
    Anything else? Thanks again.
    HVACNUT
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Okay. Devil is in the details. As to whether this is a recent development, or an on going issue since the system was new.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,184
    Well icy78? What's up? The suspense is killing me.
    kcoppSolid_Fuel_ManGrallertHilly
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > Well icy78? What's up? The suspense is killing me.

    I feel your pain HVACNUT! Especially at 4:15a.m!☺ Anyhow, I don't have much. Went back. Drained system. Checked tank pressure. Cleaned one boiler drain on a system low spot that was plugged. Flushed system after taking another sample. Added 3 tubes Sentinel X100. Changed slave circ. (Master circ still working with old cartridge installed. ) Pointed out to maintanance that the master display was a bit deteriorated, and walked thru building verifying that all baseboards were heating. Found out that older part of building is 1938. Didn't know they had copper pipes then! Anyhow get back to boiler room and found master display, a blank blue screen.! Arrrggg! Cycle power no help. Switch harness with slave display, no help. Switch displays, o.k. Glad maintenance saw that sequence! So its running now.


    TACO is being really stand up on this. They are really wanting to get to the root of this problem, as am I. They are taking the circs and water sample and will let me know what they decide. All the guys were really helpful whether emailing or on the phone. I'm happy with their response.

    So now I'm thinking about that plugged boiler drain. It was the low spot, but it totally blocked the 1/2" drain below the system circ.....but the water was soooo clean otherwise.

    Impellers nice and clean . Maybe the lube port is plugged?
    Pumping away, yes.

    Prior to flushing the system the water stank. My only test was the smell test but each loop passed that after flushing. Then it was flushed again.

    I'll try to post pics but have never been successful doing that.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    Some pics I hope!
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    Huh! Maybe it'll work this time!

    Nite all!
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 3,815
    So you added inhibitor to the system..... Did you ever depressurize the system and add cleaner? What is the volume of the system? Looks huge. I am almost thinking that 3 tubes is not enough.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 397
    > @kcopp said:
    > So you added inhibitor to the system..... Did you ever depressurize the system and add cleaner? What is the volume of the system? Looks huge. I am almost thinking that 3 tubes is not enough.

    No. The whole system was drained and flushed and drained and flushed then I just guesstimate it at 75 gallons. Added three tubes and then ran system for an hour and checked for the correct color with the Weil McLain kit. The yellows were dead on so I left it at that and took a sample of water as it is now.