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Loosing pumps

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  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,870
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    Are you getting bad primary pumps on both boilers or just one? If one, left or right boiler. Air scoop is on the return and that's a really small air eliminator for that system.
    Is it cascading?
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @HVACNUT said:
    > Are you getting bad primary pumps on both boilers or just one? If one, left or right boiler. Air scoop is on the return and that's a really small air eliminator for that system.
    > Is it cascading?

    Bad pumps on both boilers. I agree about the air scoop I think. Do you mean the scoop is sized wrong or that the small auto vent is a problem? The scoop was left in from the previous boiler (, yes , not in the best place.) It originally went to a compression tank they tell me.
    I don't know what cascading means here.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Cascading is one boiler carries the loads when they are low, and the other comes on line when loads are high enough. They could also alternate as lead/lag boiler so both get close to the same usage.

    Effectively the two 5:1 TDR ultras become 10:1 TDR.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @Gordy said:
    > Cascading is one boiler carries the loads when they are low, and the other comes on line when loads are high enough. They could also alternate as lead/lag boiler so both get close to the same usage.
    >
    > Effectively the two 5:1 TDR ultras become 10:1 TDR.

    I see. They are set up as master/slave. I don't know exactly when the slave fires tho. I will look at that whenever I have to go back. I've never had to set that up before. Pretty straight forward? In the Custom settings I guess?
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,870
    edited February 2017
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    The air vent itself is small. Be nice to add a Spirovent on the supply.
    Cascading has a Master boiler and the other boiler(s) are followers. The Master talks to the others via a communication bus. Typically the Master sees the load until a time or temp set point to bring on the follower. Can be programmed to alternate primary function so both boilers get equal use.
    Is Taco going to the site?
    Is it possible the secondary pump is overpowering the primary pumps, therefore bypassing the primary loops altogether and leaving the primary loops in limbo, overheating and seizing the primary pumps because they're not even really moving water.
    I know the soft lockout will auto reset once the temp drops at the return sensor. A hard lockout of >58 diff. (I think) requires a manual reset and should do so before pump failure. So your seizing impellers on different pumps on different boilers. I think it's improper sizing between the primary and secondary pumps.
    If you can get Taco out to the site, great. If not, get all your info, circs, boilers, connecting load and so forth, maybe tech support can help over the phone.
    Post your findings. I'm home for 6 months due to bone fusion surgery so I must live vicariously through my HVAC brethren.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    If it is piped P/S which from what I can see it is. How can the secondary pump over power the primary pumps? If the p/s is piped right that is. There is a bit going on there not in full view in the pic.
    icy78
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @HVACNUT said:
    > The air vent itself is small. Be nice to add a Spirovent on the supply.

    They won't spend more than they have too.

    > Cascading has a Master boiler and the other boiler(s) are followers. The Master talks to the others via a communication bus. Typically the Master sees the load until a time or temp set point to bring on the follower. Can be programmed to alternate primary function so both boilers get equal use.
    OK that's what I thought. I was thinking staging terminology, but does cascading then refer to modulating staging?

    > Is Taco going to the site?
    They are picking up the damaged goods and samples.
    > Is it possible the secondary pump is overpowering the primary pumps, therefore bypassing the primary loops altogether and leaving the primary loops in limbo, overheating and seizing the primary pumps because they're not even really moving water.

    PS is correct. I checked suction and discharge heads anyhow thru the gamut of zones opening and closing.

    > I know the soft lockout will auto reset once the temp drops at the return sensor. A hard lockout of >58 diff. (I think) requires a manual reset and should do so before pump failure. So your seizing impellers on different pumps on different boilers. I think it's improper sizing between the primary and secondary pumps.

    Isn't one of the nice things about PS that you can have pumps of different capabilities in the same system? (Hydrolically seperated)
    > If you can get Taco out to the site, great. If not, get all your info, circs, boilers, connecting load and so forth, maybe tech support can help over the phone.

    > Post your findings. I'm home for 6 months due to bone fusion surgery so I must live vicariously through
    Bummer about the bone fusion. Find ways to enjoy your time off. Stay on the Forum! All the best in recovery.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,352
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    It is tough to see exactly how those boilers pipe into the building circuit. This rough drawing is what it looks like to me.

    If so there needs to be check valves on both boiler circulators to prevent those pumps from potentially flowing directly against one another. Maybe the checks are in the pumps?

    In some cases it is good to have checks on supply and return on P/S piping.

    Also it looks like the 3 piece system pump is flowing up to the zone valves, check all flow direction arrows :). But the central air purge is then on the return piping? And the boilers tee in downstream of the air purger?
    Ideally the air elimination is at the hottest point in the system.

    I wonder if something got changed from the original design, a pump installed backwards?

    I'd guess the swing check on the 3 piece pump is oversized, possibly grossly so. Check valves need to be sized by their Cv
    number. The cv number is with the check in full open position.

    If that is a 2", possibly a Cv of 150 or so? If a swing check does not see full gpm flow the gate inside is fluttering somewhere between closed and full open, could lead to noise and increased pressure drop. Better to have a flow check there as swing checks depend on pressure differential to close and seal. With the pump off, there is now pressure difference across the check

    I'm not sure why that check is even needed in a true P/S piping? with only one system pump and zone valves.

    Good that someone installed PT ports to check that pump operating condition.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @hot rod said:
    > It is tough to see exactly how those boilers pipe into the building circuit. This rough drawing is what it looks like to me.
    > You got it!

    > If so there needs to be check valves on both boiler circulators to prevent those pumps from potentially flowing directly against one another. Maybe the checks are in the pumps?
    >
    The checks are in the piping on the supply primary loops.

    > In some cases it is good to have checks on supply and return on P/S piping.
    >
    > Also it looks like the 3 piece system pump is flowing up to the zone valves, check all flow direction arrows :). But the central air purge is then on the return piping? And the boilers tee in downstream of the air purger?

    Yes. Since I've bought a few of Dan's books( and am hooked) I find piping issues on many jobs, ours and others. I think I've gotten the HVAC Foreman to buy into what I'm learning. Time will tell but I noticed on the last install it was piped as I've been preaching from the little I now know.

    > Ideally the air elimination is at the hottest point in the system.
    > Yes, agreed.

    > I wonder if something got changed from the original design, a pump installed backwards?

    See where I talk about Dan's books.☺
    >
    > I'd guess the swing check on the 3 piece pump is oversized, possibly grossly so. Check valves need to be sized by their Cv
    > number. The cv number is with the check in full open position.

    You got me there. Cv still mystified me. All I know own is its important to get it right.
    >
    > If that is a 2", possibly a Cv of 150 or so? If a swing check does not see full gpm flow the gate inside is fluttering somewhere between closed and full open, could lead to noise and increased pressure drop. Better to have a flow check there as swing checks depend on pressure differential to close and seal. With the pump off, there is now pressure difference across the check
    >
    > I'm not sure why that check is even needed in a true P/S piping? with only one system pump and zone valves.

    See Dan's books comment.☺
    >
    > Good that someone installed PT ports to check that pump operating condition.

    Yes. Some of our installers put them in always. Even residential. Others, only if told to.☺
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    I've been biting my lip re: the near boiler piping. My amateur opinion, is that both those boilers should be piped to a set of closely spaced tees, not as supply-supply, return-return. That eliminates the possibility of boiler pumping to boiler.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,352
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    Does your shop have a differential pressure gauge to read this PT ports? That would tell a lot about where that pump is operating.

    I see the check valves on the boiler supply in the additional pic. Do the boiler pumps also have checks inside?

    Again, those 1-1/4 checks on the boilers are oversized. Not sure of that brand, here is a Cv for another common brand.

    Basically the Cv is the GPM flowing through a valve or device with a 1 psi drop.

    So those 1-1/4 and 2" on the main pump are probably oversized.

    Those checks are probably not the cause of the pump failures. Either fluid quality, or the operating condition of the pumps would be my guess.

    Maybe the boiler HX are plugger, measuring pressure drop across the HX would indicate that, a few more PT ports in critical locations would be a nice feature right about now.

    Still some weirdness in the piping.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @hot rod said:
    > Does your shop have a differential pressure gauge to read this PT ports? That would tell a lot about where that pump is operating.
    >
    Yes I have a nice Dwyer digital. Pump is smack in the middle of the curve.

    > I see the check valves on the boiler supply in the additional pic. Do the boiler pumps also have checks inside?

    Negative.
    >
    > Again, those 1-1/4 checks on the boilers are oversized. Not sure of that brand, here is a Cv for another common brand.
    >
    > Basically the Cv is the GPM flowing through a valve or device with a 1 psi drop.
    >
    > So those 1-1/4 and 2" on the main pump are probably oversized.
    >
    > Those checks are probably not the cause of the pump failures. Either fluid quality, or the operating condition of the pumps would be my guess.
    >
    > Maybe the boiler HX are plugger, measuring pressure drop across the HX would indicate that, a few more PT ports in critical locations would be a nice feature right about now.
    >
    > Still some weirdness in the piping.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @Paul48 said:
    > I've been biting my lip re: the near boiler piping. My amateur opinion, is that both those boilers should be piped to a set of closely spaced tees, not as supply-supply, return-return. That eliminates the possibility of boiler pumping to boiler.

    I'm definitely not qualified to decide that.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,352
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    So the 3 piece system pump goes to a header of Taco zone valves, just out of the picture?

    I don't see any pressure bypass valve, or does the pump have a variable speed drive?

    Paul, I have seen boilers tied into a header which pipes to the closely spaced tees. As long as the pipe is sized to handle total gpm, it should not be an issue.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @hot rod said:
    > So the 3 piece system pump goes to a header of Taco zone valves, just out of the picture?

    That is correct. The layout guys assumption is that a centrifugal pump doesn't care if one zone or 5 is/are open. I don't agree but I'm not that guy. I did email him a piece by Grundfos illustrating the effects of head on a centrifugal pump. Relieved no comment.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,352
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    So the layout guy has an answer to all the failed pumps?
    Same guy that put the Raypak DHW heater in place of the boiler?

    If it is a single, fixed speed pump it will need a PAB installed.

    How many zone valves and were they all open when you tested the pump performance?

    Send him this link


    http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_16_na_0.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @hot rod said:
    > So the layout guy has an answer to all the failed pumps?

    Umm nope.

    > Same guy that put the Raypak DHW heater in place of the boiler?
    >
    Ummm yup.

    > If it is a single, fixed speed pump it will need a PAB installed.

    PAB?
    >
    > How many zone valves and were they all open when you tested the pump performance?

    Checked primary and secondary pumps thru 1 open...2 open...etc.
    > Darn. I think I didn't check suction on the secondary pump when cycling thru the zones. Head stayed pretty fixed at 43 thru out. I don't have secondary pump data. Dum.

    > Send him this link

    I'll read it! I don't want to push my luck tho. I mostly am happy with my job. Things like this make it interesting. Wish it was some other outfits work tho. Much easier to reccomend changes.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,352
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    I wonder where all the output from the system pump goes when most of the zone valves are closed? Could be that is where the pump issues are.

    Any velocity noise when only several, or just one zone is calling? The ∆P meter connected across the system pump should tell a story, and show how or if the pump runs up the curve as valves close off.

    The tee above the system pump is suspicious, makes me wonder if the piping changed, that it was a true loop at one time or was planned to have a DPBV installed.

    Different names for that bypass valve PAB (pressure activated bypass) DPBV (differential pressure bypass valve)

    Basically they are a valve that opens as pressure increases (pump delta P) and sheds that excessive flow back to the system, think of it as a relief valve.

    A more elegant way to solve over pumping multi zone valved installations is with a delta P circulator. Also explained in Idronics 16.

    Focus on these several pages of Idronics 16, 39- 42 to get a picture and visual of how that pressure activated bypass valve works and why it is so critical.

    Without seeing all of the piping it is possible one is installed near all the zone valve connections to the loop?

    I'd lay awake nights until I got to the bottom of a troubleshoot like that. Amazing that the building owner is okay with all those failed pumps.



    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Every commercial system I install and wire has a variable frequency drive (VFD) and a differential pressure transducer at the circulator. Many of which are 5-10 horse power. This is a deltaP pump but with separate components, if something fails the pump can still be line started.

    I'm still curious about the original system water and the nasty smell.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,870
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    > @icy78 said:
    > > @HVACNUT said:
    > > The air vent itself is small. Be nice to add a Spirovent on the supply.
    >
    > They won't spend more than they have too.
    >
    > > Cascading has a Master boiler and the other boiler(s) are followers. The Master talks to the others via a communication bus. Typically the Master sees the load until a time or temp set point to bring on the follower. Can be programmed to alternate primary function so both boilers get equal use.
    > OK that's what I thought. I was thinking staging terminology, but does cascading then refer to modulating staging?
    >
    > > Is Taco going to the site?
    > They are picking up the damaged goods and samples.
    > > Is it possible the secondary pump is overpowering the primary pumps, therefore bypassing the primary loops altogether and leaving the primary loops in limbo, overheating and seizing the primary pumps because they're not even really moving water.
    >
    > PS is correct. I checked suction and discharge heads anyhow thru the gamut of zones opening and closing.
    >
    > > I know the soft lockout will auto reset once the temp drops at the return sensor. A hard lockout of >58 diff. (I think) requires a manual reset and should do so before pump failure. So your seizing impellers on different pumps on different boilers. I think it's improper sizing between the primary and secondary pumps.
    >
    > Isn't one of the nice things about PS that you can have pumps of different capabilities in the same system? (Hydrolically seperated)

    I'm no expert by any means on PS piping, but I know there's a formula, your primary pumps gpm cannot exceed the gpm of the secondary connecting load, and that doesnt seem to be the case. Even though its hydrolically seperated, if my thinking is right, even with the closely spaced tee's (where the primary pumps don't know the secondary pump even exists) but I can't help thinking its a flow problem rather than particulates or chemical reaction.
    > > If you can get Taco out to the site, great. If not, get all your info, circs, boilers, connecting load and so forth, maybe tech support can help over the phone.
    >
    > > Post your findings. I'm home for 6 months due to bone fusion surgery so I must live vicariously through
    > Bummer about the bone fusion. Find ways to enjoy your time off. Stay on the Forum! All the best in recovery.
    Thanks, I will. Gotta keep the brain exercised. And daytime T.V. sucks.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    You guys are giving me great info and food for thought. The DPBV I get. We had one in a factory where loop was 1000 gallons but a lot of 2-way valves to AHUs. Carrier chiller had lost a couple compressors from short cycling and installing the DPBV made all the difference.

    There is NOTHING to relieve pressure at one zone open conditions except that zone. That piping is how it's always been i think but I could easily be wrong.

    Taco said it will be a couple weeks at least until they decide on the pumps and water sample. I do have the slave display to install soon so I may be able to check other things while I'm there.

    Give me a list! (course I may have my own list after reading what you all are loading me up with)☺

    @hotrod if this were a refrigeration issue I'd be sleepless too! I don't know enough about hydronics to be losing sleep over it. Yet.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    @HVACNUT said , the flow from the primary can't exceed the flow from the secondary.

    How can that be? Surely there are many instances where that is the case?

    Or can't exceed the total secondary flow? Altho I don't get that either because at any one time the total secondary flow in many systems could be less than, equal to, or greater than the primary flow.
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,675
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    If the primary flow exceeds the secondary flow, the water moves backwards through the closely spaced tees. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, long as you are ready to deal with it, elevated return temps is the first thing that comes to mind.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    The formulas for P/S. @icy78 get some downloads from Caleffi idronics series. Well worth the time to look at. Maybe you can slowly change the "layout guys" perception.

    Sometimes it's easier to visualize what is going on with flow rates using a hydraulic seperator.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    With condensing boilers it is much more important to get that return temp down as low as the system allows to gain boiler efficiency. To do so system side flow must be greater than boiler side flow.
    icy78
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,588
    edited February 2017
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    Overall, the piping of this system could have been better, I seriously doubt it is what is causing the pump failures ( until the big pump starts failing). Water quality seems like the obvious culprit.

    The big question in my mind is what effect both the ph and the suspended solids has had on the aluminum heat exchangers in those boilers. If the lower part of the boilers looks like your plugged drain, you have much bigger issues.

    I would recommend a thorough flush and cleaning of the boilers themselves. A system like this should have a quality dirt separator and scheduled monitoring of water quality. It will take some time before conditions stabilize.

    If the owners balk at the cost, I would remind them in writing what the cost of boiler replacement would be. They should also see the section of the warrantee that excludes failures do to unsuitable water.

    Those pumps are pretty durable. If they are failing, other components are sure to follow.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    That's a hard sell, "after the fact", on a system you recommended and installed. That little over-sight could cost you a lot of money, going forward. How would a judge see it? The system was not installed to factory specification. It's one thing to do it to a residential customer. It's another to do it to a business. They have deeper pockets for attorneys. Just sayin'
    GordyZmanHatterasguy
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,588
    edited February 2017
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    I did not pick up on this being their installation. By the sounds of things the system was likely not flushed at all as part of the installation?
    His company should just suck it up and put in the separator.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @ratio said:
    > If the primary flow exceeds the secondary flow, the water moves backwards through the closely spaced tees. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, long as you are ready to deal with it, elevated return temps is the first thing that comes to mind.

    Still , the max temp the circulator would see is 180f as that is the max output setting.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @Zman said:
    > I did not pick up on this being their installation. By the sounds of things the system was likely not flushed at all as part of the installation?

    I really doubt it was flushed.

    > His company should just suck it up and put in the separator.

    Which separator? Air?

    We did do the change out. 6 years ago. There's 50 guys in our company. I didn't even know this place existed until 2 weeks ago! All new to me.
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    @hotrod, @gordy . Copied all 68 pages of idronics 16 today between refrigeration calls. Will read it soon.

    Some of you are not believing that I personally didn't install this. I am in the service department and do almost zero install. I have been under the impression that design and installation knew what they were doing. Since reading here and in Dan's books, I have realized that contrary to local, and our shops opinion, we really don't know what we're doing at least on the hydronic side.. I am out to change that. I have to be careful and thoughtful about it because the owners do a lot of the design and layout process. I'd like to keep my job and stay friendly. Training is essentially nonexistent. This is how they've operated for decades. Time to change!

    As always. Really appreciate ALL feedback

    FWIW the company is really good about making-it-right, when they see they've goofed somewhere.
    We in the service dept are always allowed to write NO CHARGE on a bill or part of it if eg. I messed up or caught something installed incorrectly and had to fix it..
    Hilly
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,588
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    6 years is a long time to talk freebies.

    My guess is that the water quality issues where never addressed in the boiler replacement.

    Old systems that have previously leaked can have tons of nasty stuff in the water due to the steady supply of oxygenated water that replaces the leaked water. The byproducts of corrosion stay floating around until someone deals with it. The ferrous particles love the magnetic fields of wet rotor circulators. The other particles settle out wherever they can.

    I would suggest installing a magnetic dirt separator like the caleffi dirt ago and flushing the aluminum heat exchanger in the boiler.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    icy78
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    Alright!! 2a.m. Sunday. 3 boilers out of 3 not running. (Different job) looks like no maintenance done in last 7 years. Good times!☺
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 428
    edited February 2017
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    ratio said:

    Why would they need maintenance, they were working fine. Do you know how much they wanted to charge for that so-called "maintenance"?!?

    I've really enjoyed following this thread. To me it's like a book, there's a mystery and a lot of the right characters have been cast into the story. I'm following along closely in hopes that narrative will find closure and many of us can benefit from a real world lesson.

    But I must say Seriously?!?! I'm not sure, I cannot tell, seriously?
    How many miles can you get out of your car without maintenance? How long does your lawn mower last without maintenance? The list goes on. If somebody wants to shop around because of a price they are quoted for maintenancing some equipment so be it.... but to say that is a waste of money is the wrong way to think. Ford isn't going to warranty that pickup truck if you never put oil in it.

    As I read over I am not sure if you are referring to the entire "system" needing maintenance or if it's just the individual circulators that have failed. Either way, if any component in that system needs to be on any sort of maintenance schedule, as required or suggested, by the manufacturer then I believe it should be taken seriously.
    Zman
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    I'll toss this out there re: the near-boiler piping for the original "problem child". You have circs in parallel, creating double the flow, to a set of closely spaced tees. It would seem, that on the return, first circ, in sequence, sees a wildly different head than the second. Is it within possibility that the first takes all the flow?
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    It is hydronicly correct to pipe the boiler circuits in parallel, and connecting to the system loop via 1 set of closely spaced tees or a hydraulic separator. This allows equal load to all boilers. If you had 2 sets of closely spaced tees in series, the first boiler in line could be bearing full load while the second one is short cycling under a micro load.

    The only thing is the piping has to all be sized correctly for the flow, and or the circs' flow rates balanced.

    One thing that needs to be fixed on the system is the air separator. Those type of air scoops need 18" of straight pipe to the inlet, in order to work. It says it right in the manual. It should also be placed on the supply side of the closely spaced tees instead of the return.
    So we have no good air removal.

    The boiler circs are pumping down on a vertical pipe. If to large of an air bubble accumulates, flow will slow to a trickle and the circs will loose sufficient lubrication and burn up.

    Also, if any kind of a petroleum based contaminate remains in the system. That could kill the seals in the pump, depending on the specific material used in that pump.
    Gordy
  • icy78
    icy78 Member Posts: 404
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    > @Hilly said:
    > Why would they need maintenance, they were working fine. Do you know how much they wanted to charge for that so-called "maintenance"?!?
    >
    >
    > I've really enjoyed following this thread. To me it's like a book, there's a mystery and a lot of the right characters have been cast into the story. I'm following along closely in hopes that narrative will find closure and many of us can benefit from a real world lesson.
    >
    > But I must say Seriously?!?! I'm not sure, I cannot tell, seriously?
    > How many miles can you get out of your car without maintenance? How long does your lawn mower last without maintenance? The list goes on. If somebody wants to shop around because of a price they are quoted for maintenancing some equipment so be it.... but to say that is a waste of money is the wrong way to think. Ford isn't going to warranty that pickup truck if you never put oil in it.
    >
    > As I read over I am not sure if you are referring to the entire "system" needing maintenance or if it's just the individual circulators that have failed. Either way, if any component in that system needs to be on any sort of maintenance schedule, as required or suggested, by the manufacturer then I believe it should be taken seriously.

    @Hilly. I will definitely be updating.

    The maintenance that @ratio made his funny comment on was a call I was on this morning at 2 a.m. and felt like communicating with someone at that lousy time to be working
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 428
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    Opps, crap on me...