It never did this before......

Pipe

I went out on a steam heating service call earlier this week to address "steam boiler issues." Apparently the homeowner has had multiple heating contractors out to diagnose her issue but the issue still remains.

Issue: The boiler short cycles. It will quickly get to pressure, turn off, then start back up a few minutes later. "It never did this before and I've had 4 other contractors out here who replaced the pressuretrole, pig tail, relief valve, air vents, etc."


Here are some facts:
Burnham IN5 140k BTU gas fired steam boiler with proper near boiler piping, equalizer, hartford loop, etc. Its all proper.
Connected load: EDR of 262.25 bringing BTU load of 62,940
Boiler installed 2009 and, according to the homeowner, did not short cycle until this heating season.

I confirmed that the boiler was grossly oversized but homeowner insists that the constant short cycling of her boiler (resulting in a triple gas bill) only developed this year after her contractor did an "annual tuneup".

I found the gas pressure low, at 2.9" WC and raised to 3.57" WC
I performed combustion and draft analysis.
I checked wet return.
All radiators are getting hot - but homeowner says they used to be hotter.

There is not a steam main air valve anywhere on the system.
The wet return gets hot, but gets room temperature as it gets within 4-5 feet from the boiler.
Proper Hartford loop.
Pressuretrol working.

The system will run on a call for heat. On a cold start, within 15 minutes the pressure will rise, as noted on the gauge and the pressuretrol - set to under 2psi, opens. Within a few minutes the pressure drops and starts up again repeating the cycle.

I explained to the homeowner that the boiler is operating just as designed but its oversized. I even measured all the radiators while out on the call and performed a heat load calculation which I emailed to her.

Today I got this response:
"Thank you for the information. I understand the boiler is technically oversized for the house- I knew this before you came here and I understand that you are confident that it has always been doing this and I didn't notice until this year. I don't mean any disrespect and appreciate your patience and effort in trying to troubleshoot the issue-however I am 100 percent positive that it did not do this before this year. I consider my word to be one of the most important things I have. I don't say things I don't mean and I certainly wouldn't say 100 percent to you if I wasn't absolutely, positively, without any doubt positive that this was not even close to how this boiler ran for the 7 years prior. 100 percent- not even 99- I can't even give 1 percent to this. That is how much I know that this boiler would run for long periods of time and the pressuretrol was not shutting the boiler down- I can't say never- but the boiler was not building pressure like this because the needle barely moved past the zero. The boiler would run and run and run without a problem- at times it could heat the house just from running one time.

Point being- there is an explanation- there always is. It's not obvious or easy to figure out but I am going to figure it out. I felt like giving up on Wednesday after you left but a good nights sleep fixed that. I am relentless and determined and confident that there is something happening that should not be happening. It makes me uncomfortable using the boiler because no one has been able to figure out what it is so for all I know it could be something dangerous. When I figure it out- I will let you know.

It's very frustrating for me because everyone who has come here rather believe that my experience of the boiler is inaccurate than admit that they do not know what the problem is and are done spending their time trying to figure it out. My word is more important to me than that and I wouldn't break my word for anyone or anything and I give you my word that this boiler did not even run similar to how it currently runs.

I was reading a thread on the forum about a modulating pressuretrol. - would this help the situation in the meantime? "



So here I am trying to brainstorm a different scenario. Am I missing something??

Maybe a few radiator air valves were bad and let out steam - I asked, both her and her husband agreed that they used to hiss all the time. (they changed the air valves on the 6 radiators this year - but after this problem developed) That could possibly explain why it didn't short cycle as often - but I'm betting against that.

Any thoughts from the steam community? Or is it just as I explained in the first 5 minutes of the service call, the system is oversized, grossly. Period.

Paul48

"I found the gas pressure low, at 2.9" WC and raised to 3.57" WC"

I'd bet that the pressure was lower than that, when another contractor turned it up to 2.9". That would explain things.

KC_Jones

If the air valves hissed all the time either the pressure was high or those valves have been bad all these years bleeding the pressure off and allowing long run times without pressure. The valves could have become gunked up from all the years of leaking steam and became blocked this year causing pressure to build.

With a boiler that oversized and no main venting (IMHO) it's essentially impossible not to build pressure if everything is working properly.

My guess, there has been something happening for 7 years that shouldn't have been happening and now it's "fixed" causing this issue. Sometimes the opposite perspective is needed. The customer could be 100% correct, but viewing the past as correct and the current as wrong when the opposite is true.

What has the water usage been like for the past 7 years? That could tell the tail of the lack of pressure.

Paul48

Yeah.........A couple of conditions (improper) that could allow that to happen have been identified. Believe the homeowner, but figure out how to go forward.

Fred

I'm guessing the boiler was down fired and the guy that serviced it the first time this year tuned it back up to manufacturer's spec sheet. Down fire it, as ,much as possible, do a combustion test and put some good main venting on those mains.

Jamie Hall

No main vents? Should have them -- but you may have difficulty persuading the homeowner to install them. Worse, they won't help the problem with the boiler cycling on pressure after 15 minutes much.

However, @Paul48 's comment may indeed explain things. If the pressure was low, but the burner was operating more or less properly, your BTU input was also low -- the poor thing had essentially been downfired, and might not have been able to produce rated -- or even close to rated -- output. Which would explain a lot.

As the the radiators not being as hot as they were before, without an actual measurement which you don't have, all you can do is smile sweetly and go on to something else.

ratio

If the radiators were "hotter", then the system had to have been running at an elevated pressure. My armchair diagnosis is that the piggytail was clogged, the gauge never wiggled much (low pressure), the pressuretrol never cut off (no short cycling), the system ran nice and long, the radiators got nice and hot, the HO is telling the truth.

Good luck with the job!

FWIW, I would (without mentioning it!) discount any references to pressure, there're too many ways to get that wrong without making a concerted effort. The short-cycling complaint, however, I would count as valid, as that is something that is easily noticed. Look for a problem that would have caused all the verifiable symptoms. Figure on all the evidence for the original problem being removed/repaired already.

Fred

I suspect @ratio is spot on. Before the boiler was serviced, the pigtail was clogged and the Pressuretrol never saw the actual pressure so it just hummed along. That also explains the reason the radiator vents hissed. Pressure was way too high and the gauge, which I bet is a 0-30PSI gauge hardly moved. They never do at anything below 7 or 8 PSI. Everything got toasty hot!

EBEBRATT-Ed

When it was installed the radiator vents did all the venting and it operated reasonably well for not having a main vent.

One by one the vents failed, the rads don't get as hot as they used to, the boiler builds pressure now, short cycles, fuel bill up, heat down, basement nice and tosty.

Why raise the gas pressure on an oversized boiler? Down fire if possible and verify stable ignition and combustion testing.

Add main vents and fix radiator vents

MilanD

If you can 2 stage the gas valve, that may solve all these issues. That will, however, be a tough sell.

By all means lower the gas valve pressure to the minimum amount possible, taking that the spec wc is net btu input, and proportionally down to as close to attached edr as you can with good combustion. Def to 2.9 wc you found first, and perhaps even lower. This would be the solution that's only time and no supplies. Then, see if the thing would run without cutting out on 1.5-2.5 psi. Then raise the psi some more and call it fixed when you get it not to shut off... This is what was happening prior to your involvement.

From what's been described and others' suggestions, the boiler probably just built pressure and fought lack of venting with pressure. Could habe been clogged pigtail, broken trol, lower gas pressure... or a combination of the above... who knows. How it's now eating more fuel is by cycling on lower pressure which takes longer to satisfy the tstat ("rads not as hot"). I bet the "rads are not as hot" means they were piping hot from all the pressure which compressed the system air before it had a chance to be expelled from rads' vents.

Then, show the home owner what's going on and what should go on, and walk away.

That's a tough one...

Pipe

thanks guys for the feedback. sometimes you need another set of eyes to get a different perspective. The homeowner actually found me here at heating help.com so I'm going to direct her to this post.

SteamyKitty

Hello everyone! I am the homeowner.

-Boiler was drained numerous times but never skimmed
-the wet return line is cold following after the burning hot Hartford loop and for approximately the first 6 plus feet of wet return. The wet return line is Cold next to the boiler and the farther you get away from the boiler, the return line is scorching hot-Seems pretty odd to me. No one has had any explanation for that yet.

I banged on the huge nut with a hammer that connects the pipes and on the wet return line pipes and it got hot!!! (Desperate times call for desperate measures) I asked one of the plumbers to take the pipes apart there after the Hartford loop- the wet return line- I was banking on something being clogged near there- I was wrong.

And without me doing my hammer trick, the first approx 6 feet of return line stays cold- even after the boiler is running for a long time. On its own without the hammer it won't progress beyond room temperature but usually it actually stays cold to the touch.

Mike set it up to drain the return line into last radiator in garage and dirty water came out but that was that. Could wet return still Be clogged near the boiler where it stays cold?

-combustion analysis (was fine)
-wet steam??( I don't understand this) how do I know? What is wet steam? The air vent in the final bedroom is gurgling (also new behavior) does this mean that my steam is guilty of being wet steam?
- overfired boiler- now being addressed hopefully
-pigtail and pressuretrol- is it representing reality or too much/too little?
-water ph lol

Aside from Mike, all of the people who came to my house tried to solve the issue by raising the pressuretrol- I argued with them repeatedly about this. I even quoted Dan when he describes a "hapless" person who comes along to do this. Here is what happened- whatever they raised it to- according to that pressuretrol- it would reach the pressure within about 15 minutes and shut down and then short cycle from there. It short cycles every 2 minutes and when one person set the psi (cut in at 3 or 5 and cut out at 7- it would short cycle every 3 minutes). Raising the pressuretrol did not fix the short cycle it just added an extra minute before it short cycled and broke the air valves on the radiators.

Almost every supposed professional that came here told me that everything is running "exactly as it should." This was following them watching the boiler repeatedly short cycle. I called **** on that and all of you have thankfully Confirmed that for me.

All the air vents are now vari-valves and Mike adjusted them.

The water in the glass is not surging.

Another company-approximately a month ago-A cleaner was added and within an hour it went from green to dirty brown. The boiler was drained a couple days later so I do not know if the cleaner even worked or not? I do know my water was cleaner before my tune-up and before this cleaner adding episode. It is now clear again.

Called company who did tune up to come back- volatile individual who screamed "we just changed the glass, we didn't touch anything else, the boiler water is supposed to be dirty- this is not my problem." I don't know if I can believe that or not-it's basically a complete unknown factor- what actually occurred during the tuneup.

The next company I called discovered the relief valve was clogged. I always almost always drain water weekly so the fact that it was clogged enough to not work when it was eventually checked was alarming to me.

when the individual who came to "tune up" the boiler in October said it was running perfectly was odd to me- I would hope he had checked that? And if he did and it got clogged when I have barely got to even use the heat this year- I'm perplexed.

I look at the pressuretrol as a check on the boiler- the fact that the boiler is running off of it constantly is definitely a problem that I am not comfortable keeping this way. I am happy to add main valves and do whatever is in the best interest of the system in the future but first I want this to be figured out because I don't want to do all of that and have it still not work. It worked for 7 years (perhaps unsafely or with screwed up settings) without main valves- I understand this was setup because of coal in the past and this system is archaic and I should put main valves on- but why now? If it gets to the point where I need to move on and fix the problem- I hope that adding the main vents fixes it but I'm not ready to give up on making sure I first know what is actually happening. I don't want to treat the symptoms without knowing what the problem actually is.

Another individual let the first/last radiator (garage) let out the steam at 3-7 psi without the air vent on for approx 10 minutes- it filled
Mine and my neighbors yards with steam (facial anyone?) and guess what- yes it was still short cycling- is that helpful? I sense that's important information but I don't really know. Shouldn't it have stopped short cycling while clouds of steam Were emitted from the radiator with no air vent in the garage?

Is there any chance that this pressuretrol
Could be getting tricked? Or falsely triggered? It thinks it has that much pressure but it doesn't? If it really is building this much pressure this quickly- I don't want to just live with it. (I have my original pressuretrol (some said it was not working and some said it was) back on because the replacement one couldn't be set below 2
PSI- gotta love it) the boiler was rapid cycling with the other pressuretrol as well which points to the pressuretrol probably not being the problem.

Could there be water stuck in the radiators? And if so could this cause the boiler to build so much pressure so quickly and short cycle?

Installed the nest thermostat a month after the tuneup. I was getting confident it was going to be this since it was installed before we needed to use heat but after the tuneup so I put my old Honeywell back on to test my theory- nope not the nest. It short cycles the same regardless of thermostat. Nest even sent someone here to check out the situation. (This company is excellent, they truly care about their customers and perfecting their product). All the wiring is correct with the control etc.

The radiator in the bedroom (final stop) is gurgling with the new air vent. It never gurgled in years prior. It's like a rapid fire gurgling machine gun.

I also have heard water rumbling/boiling while in the basement- I think it is the boiler but it sounds odd. I had never heard this rumbling before either. I have only personally witnessed it a handful of times, one time it was while someone working on the boiler and he got totally freaked out and shut it off and called His boss to come. His boss had no idea and guess what- he wanted to raise the pressuretrol. La la la

Why is it building so much pressure so quickly?! This is on my mind everyday. It seems to me it could go to 15 if the pressuretrol wasn't on it to stop it or the relief valve eventually.

SteamyKitty

Paul48- In your experience, do you find that the gas pressure is set too low by inexperienced installers? Is this something that comes set a particular way from the factory? Is it safe to lower it? Is there a potential downside to trying this?

KC_JONES-I think I understand what you are saying. This was probably setup incorrect from the time of installation and now it is set up correctly- causing the problem. That's smart thinking and wouldn't surprise me considering the oversized boiler that was installed, it insinuates inexperience on the part of the installers. My water bill is around the same amount as my neighbors water bill. Boiler doesn't seem to be using much water to me, it looks like it barely loses any but this is subjective I suppose. I have an automatic feeder so I don't know what it does when im not home. Valves gunked up after years of leaking steam- this makes sense too. Would letting clouds of steam wildly out of the radiator in the garage without an air vent be somewhat similar to having broken air valves all these years? The broken air valves were acting as vents and 10 minutes of steam exiting a boiler I would think would also act as a vent? Or not?

Jamie Hall- thank you for explaining that the way you did. It sounds like this could possibly fix the problem (I know it's not how it's supposed to be set up) and perhaps the tune up man adjusted this and by taking away my incorrect settings- Poor thing was downfired- I like that.

Thank you Ratio-your response made me happy and relieved- you get it- you understand- so validating for me to read that. I have been looked at like I'm crazy when I don't believe these supposed heating professionals (aka I say I know steam but actually don't have a clue) when they tell me everything is fine and running normal. Lucky for me, I know the sounds of the house, do a lot of laundry down there, and pay attention to such things. If not for me being confident in this, I would have said "oh ok thanks teehee giggle bye" to the first person who came here and told me everything is running exactly as it should. I wanted to do that- but I knew with certainty that this was new behavior that had not happened in the years prior. Short cycling is really easily noticed- so true. I knew it the very first time
I heard it- I stopped in my tracks and said "that's not what it usually does" and so the saga began.

Fred- imagine that- the pressuretrol never sensed the pressure and it kept going and going and going. No one has said that the pigtail was clogged though. Still quite possible that it was. Yes 0-30 gage that barely moved off the zero all these years and in the past month I saw it go to 7. (Granted it was set to 7 at that point- but the gage does seem to correspond to the pressuretrol
Settings) in its own non precise way. Fred- you mentioned that those Gages never show anything before 7psi. I'm confused by what that means. Mine is 0-30 but it shows supposed 2,3,4,5,6,7- so many people have played with the pressuretrol and whatever they set it too that gage does seem to correspond to it. I wonder if the pressuretrol is sensing even less pressure than reality? That's scary thought.

Hatterasguy- you are sharp- they broke my nice valves and replaced with 6 maid o mist valves that he then broke again by putting pressure to 7 PSI. Water shooting out air vents. no heat the next morning- I wanted to fight that guy.

SteamyKitty

Most of the valves were physically cracked when I removed them and replaced them all With vari-valves. That is what I have on all Of them now. Although- I had Hoffmans originally and have been thinking of buying those again. Could that possibly help? Or long shot?

MilanD- what is 2 stage the gas valve? And why a tough sell? I googled briefly and it sounds wonderful if this doesn't get solved via another route.

Forget locker room talk- it's all about boiler room talk. I hope it's okay that I joined in.

Yes, I am aware of how long what I just wrote was. I apologize in advance if I repeated myself. Steam heat issues can really make an almost sane person go a little crazy.

As of now if I am understanding correct- lowering the gas pressure and raising the pressuretrol to see if that stops the short cycling is the next move? The underlying theory is that the tune up person turned the gas up and the pressuretrol down which caused the short cycling even though he denies touching it.

Is it possible that lowering the gas pressure could help without raising the pressuretrol?

Do you think I should buy Hoffman or some other air vents too? It's hard for me imagine that this is a venting problem after watching all that steam fill the backyards and it still Short cycled. I know that I only have limited Knowledge so please bare with me if my ideas up above make little or no sense - I started thinking that I was alone on this and going to have to figure it out myself so I have spent most of my free time researching all
Of this. I have become fascinated as a side effect and am interested in learning and trying whatever ideas all of you experts come up with.

I miss the good old days when the boiler was satisfied by the thermostat instead of the pressuretrol.

Mike, Thank you for posting this on the forum. I appreciate you taking your time to do this. To everyone else who has taken their valuable time to try to help as well, it means more to me than I have words to express- Thank you all so much.

Paul48

We have to be clear about something......If everything is proper with a steam system, and an over-sized boiler is installed, the boiler will short cycle. Your current contractor is attempting to figure out what conditions existed before that prevented the boiler from doing that. Short of being a clairvoyant, he can only take educated guesses. We understand your frustration, but in that frustration, you're all over the system. It has to be tackled in an A-B-C manner. Sometimes you have to slow down, to get more accomplished.

ratio

Whew! Sounds like you've had a hard time of it. The good new is: we're here to help! There're some really smart people here, we'll get it figured out.

Ironman

@SteamyKitty,
Can you post some pics of your boiler, its near piping and of some radiators with their near piping?

SteamyKitty

I do understand that Paul. I think you have given me good advice as well. I will try to slow it down and will follow all of your leads. I feel so lucky to have all of your help. You are all very generous.

Paul48

@SteamyKitty
I should have included a disclaimer....I am not a heating professional. I am a machinist of 35 years, with a fascination for heating. I've spent the last 35 years trouble-shooting machinery of all types. I can help unravel a mystery. I know that available gas has a relationship to btu output, but would never tell you what it should be. That's beyond my skill set and is a job for a pro, with the equipment to do the job correctly.

SteamyKitty

Please let me know what else you need.

Paul48

Pictures....From distances showing as much as possible. Showing the things @Ironman asked for.

SteamyKitty

I thought I had attached them already. Oops

SteamyKitty

More pics

SteamyKitty

Pics galore

SteamyKitty

Inside garage which connects into the basement/wet return

MilanD

My thinking approach to this was to answer what could have been going on in the past that the system didn't cycle on pressure and get it back to that state.

I'm not versed in all the ins and outs of various boilers but have spent, like you, massive amount of time figuring and greening our boiler operations as an end user, and am now somewhat of an aficionado.

Oversized boiler and unvented mains will cycle on pressure unless 2 things happen: sky high op psi (pressiretrol set high) and/or combined with the lower btu input on the burners (downsizing of the boiler by lowering btu input via lowering of gas valve pressure, essentially, simmering the fire down as steam boiler is nothing more but a cast iron pot on a stove burner).

What was your system like before the 5 different boiler people had worked on it is anyone's guess. From your orig description (piping hot radiators) and from what Mike posted he's done, looks like boiler was most likely downfired. Maybe inadvertently, or this may have been done in the past by someone who knew what was going on.

Years ago we had several burners removed on our grossly oversized commercial boiler (1.1 MILLION BTU input). Boiler ran fine, we had the heat, and op pressures were in 2-3-4 psi range, if not more. I wasn't aware or understanding any of it 10 years ago... Point is, big oversized, the boiler was underfired, op. pressure was a bit high, and all was fine as far as I knew. I can't tell if it cycled on steam, but I think it must have. Our gas bills were ghastly.

I'm not understanding your pipes being "cold" 6 ft from the boiler in your wet returns and that whole business. After running for a while, returns, wet and dry, will be hot. 200F degree hot. If you are now cycling on pressure, not heating as well AND you see water from the rad vents, your returns indeed may be plugged, condensate is filling the system, rads and pipes, steam is pushing it out of vents and op pressure is building quickly. Water is being added by your auto feeder, and eventually you will completely fill the system. You are - waterlogged.

If indeed your returns are cold - there is your explanation for the whole thing.

SteamyKitty

Milan D - I am following everything you said. I understand it and all makes sense to me.

I know how bizarre this sounds - You got it right - the wet return is cold for 6 plus feet near the boiler and piping hot far away and it only gets hot close to the boiler if I hit it with a hammer. I showed Mike. Otherwise it stays cold even after the boiler heats up from 67 to 72- what's closest to the boiler is cold. It's right next to the Hartford loop- it's cold and Hartford loop is hot. I think Mike mentioned it in the original post he wrote as well- maybe he explained it better- he described as room but it's actually cold and I have seen when they open it, cold water has come out of it. Returns are cold half-way to be precise.

That picture right there shows the wet return by the Hartford loop- all of that and then some
More stays cold.

Thank you for explaining everything so nicely.

Paul48

The radiator in the garage is of concern. It would appear that someone was trying to scavenge heat from a return. I'd think that it would be plugged, at least partially. It also interferes with maintaining 28" to the water line, which adds the pressure on the return side, so the condensate gets back into the boiler.

MilanD

> @Paul48 said:
> The radiator in the garage is of concern. It would appear that someone was trying to scavenge heat from a return. I'd think that it would be plugged, at least partially. It also interferes with maintaining 28" to the water line, which adds the pressure on the return side, so the condensate gets back into the boiler.

Given it all worked fine in the past, I think rad there is fine. If anything, it's a p trap and raises the waterline.

MilanD

Hot water from the Hartford loop can be backing in from the boiler pressure, the equalizer pipe, and the water column pressure, as well as jusy metal heating passively down the run.

Check out that wet return pipe for a clog. This clog may be coincidence at this time and not a causal issue of all other pressure/cycling/boiler size problems, but is adding to, esp. with water coming out of rads.

Harford loop will hold water in the boiler. Drain the wet return and see if hot water starts coming out. If it's plugged, it'll stop draining water after the plug. It may take a while to drain if it's plugged up, but I'm assuming its most likely obstructed and not 100% plugged up so you will eventually get a drizzle of hot condensate.

Op pressue is another matter and should be addressed after pipe plug has been cleared.

Fred

First off, I see the Pressuretrol is set with the Main at 1 PSI and the Differential set also at 1 PSI. This is a "subtractive" Pressuretrol. What that means is you have told the Pressuretrol to not let the system pressure to go past 1 PSI But, with that differential, you have also told the Pressuretrol to kick the boiler back on when it reached 1 PSI. In theory and practice, it will shutdown and back on. Set the Main scale to "2" and set the Differential at "1.5" That will allow the pressure to go up to 2 PSI and shut down then come back on at .5 PSI.
Second comment, While the gauge may seem to read pressure correctly, the 0 - 30 PSIU gauge is simply not good or accurate at low pressures. It is required to be on the boiler by most local codes but we always try to tell people to install a 0-3 or 0-5 PSI gauge, in addition to that 0-30 gauge. It just helps to accurately see the real system pressure. With that gauge, the pressure may actually be a few pounds higher than it actually says.
Third, If the pigtail hasn't been cleaned, clean it. It is still very possible that it can't see an accurate pressure because of a slug of crud in that loop. Make sure the small orifice on the Pressuretrol, in the fitting that that screws onto the pigtail is not clogged too.
Drain the boiler and, if you can, drain the wet returns and flush them out. We don't know what chemicals were added to the boiler . Some are not meant to stay in them. Others, if too much is added will cause pressures to rise and all kinds of weird things to happen. They can cause foaming, unstable water levels, higer pressure, etc.
Regardless of the current situation, all single pipe steam systems need very good Main Venting to operate properly and those main vents help keep pressure down, especially when you have an over-sized boiler. Put them on, each main, after the last radiator run out. You Need then regardless so putting them on will eliminate one issue in the mix and help to some extent. You felt the boiler ran fine for seven years. Well, it heated the house and ran, as best as you knew "Fine". That doesn't mean it ran correctly or efficiently and I can tell you, with no main vents, it did not run "fine".
That particular radiator vent you have on those radiators is known to spit water. That won't help things. I'd go back to the Hoffman's or Vent-rites. But for now, let's focus on getting the pressure issue resolved.
Make sure all radiators have some slight pitch back towards the supply pipe. Water must be able to run back to the boiler. If they are completely level or pitched the wrong way, the radiators will hold water and the vents will spit. 1/4 " pitch is fine. Additionally, if any of the radiators are holding enough water that they aren't getting hot, that just compounds your pressure issue because it makes the connected EDR even less. Turn all radiator valves on, if you have any shut off.
The near boiler piping looks good. The installer seems to know what he was doing.
Am I seeing correctly, in your pictures? Are some or all of your wet returns under the floor?
One final observation, you don't have any insulation on those pipes. That by itself will cause steam to condense before it gets to the radiators and will cause the boiler to run for extended period, also raising pressure. Insulate those pipes. I know it ran before it was serviced but each and every element of the system needs to run properly to be effective. Your system may well be running like it should, after the service and that may be different from what you considered normal. Now it needs attention to get it running effectively and efficiently, given it is over-sized. Needs vents, insulation, pigtail cleaned, radiators/pipes checked for pitch, probably down fired, maybe a two stage gas valve, Pressuretrol properly set.
Finally, I assume someone thought they could run the hot condensate from a dry return into that radiator in the garage, which I assume drains back to the boiler?? Not a good idea, steam and all the condensate from all the rads on that main. Should have a trap of some type there to prevent steam from getting into that radiator.

Ironman

Also, check the slope on the steam mains: they should drop down away from the boiler at least 1" for every 20' of horizontal run.

MilanD

Hatt is one of the best there is. Check the clog. Then we'll deal with the rest. System won't operate with a clogged return.

As to 2-staging, and downfiring an oversized boiler, several pros here are against it due to it not being engineered by spec from the manufacturer. Several other pros have done it and there are a few threads discussing it. I personally think 2-staging iis the best for oversized boilers, short only to being able to actually downfire boiler to size of edr connected and lower the water level to new edr ratio, which noone will do.

Downfiring is like still using a large pot instead of medium pot (oversized boiler) but inputing less btu (smaller burner), as if it were a medium pot (correctly sized boiler). But, this comes up to an issue with too much water still in the boiler (pot is still too large with more water) and it will be taking too much time to build steam between cycles as you are essentially simmering excess water to the boil point each time tstat calls for heat. This kills efficiency. So, because this is not to manufacturers spec (downfire and lower water level), pros will not do it for obvious reasons: if anything goes wrong, warranty is voided on a custom setup and they would be left holding the bag. Can't blaim them.

2 staging is gettin, in essence, the best of 2 worlds, to fire on high to get steam quickly, and then turn on the simmer to percolate less steam. This will require a 2 stage gas valve. Less steam means less op pressure. As it drops after the initial build up, at some preset psi, full burn engages, and so on. Modulating (2 staged) burn. This also mimics the coal fire back in the day, with dampers engaging on pressure build, simmering water, then again opening up as pressure drops. The original modulator.

On gas fired boilers, some concerns are with drop in efficiency by few %, and with chimney stack temperatures, but with less energy use, you still come out ahead vs full fire and cycling on pressure (as what you are now seeing), and you are only sizing down to propper btu, which should still keep the chimney temp above the condensation temps.

Issue is that doing all this is on your dime and getting it to run as it should would take a few days of pro coming and tuning it in = more $$.

And this is why properly sized boiler is always the best, although even 2 staging the proper sized boiler still makes for a better efficiency as you can dial down psi to a few ounces, and that saves fuel.

BobC

Just make sure you check the combustion numbers at high and low fire AND the flue temperatures - don't want condensation in the chimney.

Bob

dennis53

"The next company I called discovered the relief valve was clogged. I always almost always drain water weekly so the fact that it was clogged enough to not work when it was eventually checked was alarming to me"

You should not have to drain anything unless you have a second float style LWCO that I missed. What relief valve was clogged?

It may just be the angle of the photo, but your probe LWCO looks high. Could the boiler be cycling on low water? Water leaves the boiler, racing to the big radiator vents. Probe shuts off boiler and starts feeding water. New water cools the wet return?

Dennis

SteamyKitty

Thank you for all for taking your time to help me. Does anyone who is confident they can help me want to come help? I am happy to pay you. I'm in queens, NYC. If that is not able to happen and i am on my own with it- i am handy and strong and can borrow my neighbors big pipe wrench etc but I would kind of need a step by step guide in order to do it myself. I am overwhelmed by this but am determined to get this taken care of one way or another.

I already changed the pressure trol as you advised Fred. Thank you.

From what I understand, draining the boiler and wet return lines and then flushing the wet return lines is the first thing for me to do. I don't even know how to do that. That's embarrassing to admit- are there instructions anywhere that you can direct me to?

I am going to reread and study everything that everyone wrote. It's a lot to take in, so many smart ideas and good questions and impressive observations. I am going to try to start Monday with draining and flushing the return lines unless someone wants to come here, take pity on me, and do a "case study" and get paid for it - I can dream- right?

Thanks again, so much.

SteamyKitty

Also, I am going to answer all of your questions and respond to everything as soon as I can.

BobC

Buy a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating', it's great read and a great education.

Bob

MilanD

Who's in NYC? Look at find a pro. I also think Mike should be able to help too.

As to cleaning out the wet returns, if you have an union upstream, that would be a good place to start. Or a plug. Open the wet return drain behind the boiler, drain out and open pipe upstream. You can then get a drain snake and slowly work it down, plus a hose.

All of this on an OFF boiler. And cooled off.

Make sure you have extra supplies that could break whilst you are doing this, or quick access to them.

To back out any fitting, get some penetrating oil, like pb blaster or kroil, and let it work before you start wrenching. And always use 2 wrenches on the fittings: one to back out, the other to hold against.

Jamie Hall

There are several very good men in the New York area. Look under Find a Professional under New York.

SteamyKitty

i have asked mike to come back and help me to follow through on fixing the issues and am waiting to hear back from him. I have exhausted the rest of the list of pros that come up for my zip code (11435)- 30 miles. Exhausted either by having a phone conversation and the person was not knowledgeable about one pipe steam heating systems or they came to my home, charged me an exorbitant amount of money, and dismissed that there was even rapid cycling occurring. This has been a horrible ordeal. I don't want to rehash the negative experiences I have had throughout the past 2 months and I don't mean to be rude but it's been a lot of money and they either didn't know what was wrong or knew there was a problem but didn't know what to do to fix it- nothing has been accomplished except for weeding through plumbers and heating professionals.

I am sure that these individuals you recommend are very good men in many ways but as for experts in steam- aside from A real good plumber, Mike, and 72 degrees- the rest were a dead end for my situation for one reason or another.

I also had numerous well known companies from the area come here as well- they did not know about steam heat- it was bizarre and ludicrous. A real good plumber seemed very knowledgeable in steam but has not responded back to me since our initial conversation and it won't work out with 72 degrees for financial reasons. I am the person who realized the wet return is not hot and I am the only person who thought this was a problem- until today when several people on this forum confirmed that this was not normal.

I have even spoken to Dan on the phone approximately a month ago to discuss this situation with him. I don't have anyone else to go to at this point and I understand if Mike doesn't want to help me any further- this is a real annoying situation. I am grateful for all the help I have already received here. I have to work on figuring out how to implement all these great solutions you all have given me.