It never did this before......

SteamyKitty

Paul- 28 inches to the waterline, I don't know about this.

Milan D- i am going to get this wet return line drained and flushed, I don't know how yet but it is going to happen.

Fred- the pressuretrol is set main at 2 and differential at 1.5 again now. I understand about investing in a more precise gage.
Mike said the pigtail was clean and so did 2 other people. I will also check the small orifice on the Pressuretrol is not clogged too.

You said to put a main vent on each main, I would like to have someone do that. Where are you located and is there anything I can do to pursuade you to come here? What is after the last radiator run out mean?

Fred, I understand your point about it running "fine." It was my subjective opinion based on a very limited knowledge of my heating system and solely based on the water in the glass looking clear and the heat working. After the pressure issue is resolved, I will buy new radiator vents- it is spitting water right now as I type this.

There is a little cardboard I put under the legs of the radiators on the side away from the pipe. How do I know if it is completely level or pitched the wrong way?

The wet returns are along the bottom perimeter of the floor and close to the end of the return line there is a 2 foot section that has cement over the pipe (by the doorway). This part of the pipe is still visible and above the floor.

I asked Mike about insulation on the pipes, he said this would cause even more pressure and make things worse. I think I can insulate the pipes on my own. i read that I have to tape insulation around the pipes- is that the entire process?

I need a trap to prevent steam from getting in the radiator in the garage. I will make sure to ask for this if I can find someone, somewhere, somehow willing to help.

Hatterasguy- no flow unless the pipe is shocked, so that's what you call it when you beat up a pipe with a hammer. So the return condensate is not returning to the boiler? It is staying in the radiators?

Ironman- I don't think the steam mains have a slope as far as I can see. I'm sorry I don't really know though

To be continued..

BobC

If it is a clog then the pipe has to be snaked out and then flushed with flowing water.

When you hammer on that return you may not be acting on a block, you might be be acting on a pool of water in a sagging length of pipe, and that pool might be a good distance from where your striking the pipe.

I would take a level and check the slope on that return along it's whole length. A laser level or a string strung taughtly along the pipe will make sags easier to spot.

Does the auto water feeder come on more than it should? Does the boiler ever appear overfilled?

Bob

SteamyKitty

Milan D- 2 staging sounds amazing. I'm excited to read about that.

BobC- thank you for giving me this important safety information, I will make sure this is taken into consideration. I think that it is definitely beyond my comfort zone to mess with the gas settings etc but I will make sure to not let this go unchecked.

Dennis53- I was told by the installer originally that every week during the heating system I need to take out water and let it run until the water runs clear. I think I only have one LWCO. I am attaching a picture of what I am calling the relief valve (probably wrong name) after this post. It is the thing that I am told is supposed to open on its own if the boiler reaches 15 PSI- it was found to be not functioning. I had it replaced since then.

Ok so Dennis, you said the LWCO looks high in the picture- hmm.. I really don't know. I thought it was always located there but I really don't know. No one has mentioned that. Thank you so much for noticing that. Maybe that is something the tune up person messed with? I don't know what to do. The water in the clear glass appears half way high up the glass- I was told it is supposed to be there-could it still be cycling on low water?

Bob- I ordered a copy of the lost art of steam heating. Do you know if it will give me step by step directions?

Milan D- what is a union upstream? Is this snake the same kind one would use for a clogged bath tub or sink drain? I open the wet return drain , drain out, and open the pipe upstream- open the pipe upstream- a vertical pipe? Two wrenches on the fittings, this part I understand.

Would you mind giving me links to what I need to buy in order to do this? I think I am going to stay home from super bowl Sunday and try to do this myself. I know it's a stupid idea and I would love to pay a professional but I need to find someone who knows how and is able to come here and the likelihood of that is very poor at this point. I really don't have anyone else to call. I started counting how many different people have been here to diagnose or fix the problem. It has been more than 10 people and I stopped counting at that point.

I suggested using my power washer through the wet return and got laughed at. I also suggested snaking it and the same individual told me that there is no snake able to do that and I just need to replace the return line if it was clogged but that it's not clogged. I have dealt with incompetence on many levels, in ways that have been shocking. This is why I have been spending all my free time researching one pipe steam systems- I understand the dead man reference- that is so true here in ny- these contractors say they know steam because they can install the boiler but half of them never even looked at my radiators or checked the valves before replacing parts. Almost all of them wanted to mask the problem by raising the pressuretrol. Parts that did not need to be replaced were replaced. I'm being really venting and negative. I apologize- I am usually a very positive and encouraging person but I'm a bit broken down and feel taken advantage of after reading all of your posts and having to acknowledge to myself that I have been desperate for help with this, kept trying, doing everything possible to get help, was told I'm crazy over and over again without the word "crazy" being used, paid them a lot of money, and am left discouraged and have nowhere to go except you kind, generous souls and you tube.

I think it's important that I share what it's like from the customers end regarding getting help with steam heat here in ny. You guys know your stuff and are brilliant and so skilled but you guys are the exception not the rule. Thank you for existing.
My boyfriend and family told me to leave it and let the boiler just break and replace the entire system due to how much money I have spent and not having anyone so far know how to or want to help me. Let the boiler just break??? I have not considered that as an option- do you think I need to do what they are saying? It is really important to me to take proper care of this house, i don't want to neglect problems that need to be addressed but if this is a dead end then please tell me so I can give up if that's what I need to do. This may be more than I can do on my own. I mean I have friends that would help me but I really would be messing with something I am not comfortable messing with. Even draining and flushing the wet return line has me confused.

I don't know if I am up to trying this myself. In case I decide to risk it and go for it - I am going to drain it and then snake it? Where do I attach the hose? Is this an empty hose or is it attached to water? What is the end point where I will need to collect what is coming out of it? Is it removing the air vent from the radiator in the garage like Mike did? And collecting stuff in a bucket that comes out? Mike did empty it once and said it was not clogged as well. Is it possibly not clogged? I don't know how I will know if he didn't know.

I got a random voicemail from a private number after I posted this yesterday that said "it's the damper." I gather someone who had come to my house and is also on this forum gave me an opinion that way- thank you. I don't know what to do about that but I will add it to the list.

I am attaching a picture of what I call the relief valve after this post.

SteamyKitty

Hi Bob
I don't know how often the water feeder comes on but I have not heard it come on yet this year. Do you have a link to what kind of snake I need to get?

A pool of water in a sagging pipe- ok this has not been checked out. Pool a great distance from sagging pipe- got it. I am going to check this out. Hopefully I find a sagging pipe and if I do? Those pipes are heavy would I try to wedge a piece of wood under it? It's kind of on top of the floor- pretty close to the floor if not maybe even resting on the floor. How does one go about fixing a sagging pipe?

I have not seen the boiler appear overfilled ever.

MilanD

@SteamyKitty

Take a video starting at the boiler when off and show the sight glass. Then let it turn on, follow each main pipe (overhead one) and follow it till its end. It should, at some point turn down towards the floor and head back to the boiler. Follow it then back to the boiler. If you have 2 of these, do it for the other one if there is another. Slowly, and well lit.

Point out where the cold return stays cold.

Then stay by the boiler and show its operation until it's built pressure and turned off on it and wait till it does another cycle and then anothe one. Look at the boiler water level while you are recording, eap. as the boiler turns off.

Then, head upstairs and shown the spitting radiator vents. If you can, point out which radiator starts first to spit, and if it's the same radiator that gets warm first. I'm presuming that your radiators heat mostly one at a time.

Have the rads spit water before all these issues this year? I'm assuming they haven't.

With this video, we can see what you see and go from there.

It's frustrating, and I'm quite sure exacerbated by 20 or so Ben Franklins you no longer have in your wallet.

There are NYC and long island pros here on the board: @EzzyT, do you know anyone in NYC?

SteamyKitty

I spent a shameful, embarrassing, disturbing amount more than I mentioned prior if I total all of it from the first people I called. I have invested a lot of time, energy, and money which is ok and part of the joys of home ownership except it's the lack of progression and constant dismissal/invalidation of an issue that came along with that that makes the situation very upsetting and exhausting.

Correct, Rads never spit water in prior years.

Long Island pros from this forum that I called would not come to me because they are not insured for queens. I practically begged but nope they weren't comfortable which I understand and definitely respect. I wouldn't do it if I were them either.

NYC steam pros- please give me the information if any of you personally trust the person is competent. The List offered on the website has been exhausted- I did not call if they did not mention steam heat on this website or in any of their online advertising but I have interacted with the rest in one communication form or another. I have had great disappointment with the people that mention steam heat as their expertise both here and on Angie's list so I don't think the probability of finding a good steam pro is likely if they don't advertise that it's their area of specialty.

Will this forum support a long video like that?

EzzyT

@SteamyKitty send me a private message and we can discuss about me taken a look at your system as whole and finding a solution to the issues that you have described.

MilanD

There are some fixes you could do. Some, you'll need the pros. Matter of fact, you pointed the exact reason people tear out steam: frustrations over the incompetence of many "pros".

I'm going back to the thought process of what exactly was going on when the system "worked" without short-cycling.

From all this you said here, it points to: boiler was originally downfired (gas valve pressure lowered). Then, your pressure was set higher - like to 4, 5 psi. Maybe more. These 2 things alone would heat up the system, keep it going without noticeable shortcyclinglong, and keep it going enough to satisfy the thermostat. Bonus: plus with each psi of pressure you get a little more than 215F of steam. Given that the burners would keep at it, you did not lose latent heat from boiler water sitting to be heated back up over and over and over again. Eventually, you are hot and al is well.

Now, do you remember or have a notion what your pressuretrol was set to in the past? Water spitting at 2 psi is not normal. The vent on one of your pictures is that drum looking thing with an adjusting slide. These aren't the best vents. That being said, how much water us coming from them: drips, streams, old faithfuls?

I'll answer your questions separately here;

Union is something that looks like this
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BLU125-1-1-4-Black-Union

Plug is this
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Ward-FBPL1-1-4-1-1-4-Black-Regular-Cored-Plug-786000-p

It will be on a fitting like this
http://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=1-1/4 tee black

This will give you access to the inside of the pipe to use the snake: yes same one for tubs. Most hand cranked ones are 25ft.

BUT, before you do ANY of that, and this all you can do yourself, open the drain behind your boiler, the one you pointed to m is at the end of your pipe that's cold. This will drain your boiler down to the Hartford loop, and then your return pipe on the floor - wet return. See if this moves the cold spot down the pipe.

NOW, if that pipe has a sag, water may sit in it and the cold section will stay cold. If this is the case, it'll be a big, yet looong and not as obstructive, version of a p trap you have under your kitchen sink. This would cause that water only to move down the pipe as more water is introduced on the supply side of it, by the condensate coming back from the system. IF, after you drain the pile to a drizzle, you introduce more water from up the stream, through an opening (plug or union), with a garden hose, and the water continues to run out of your drain behind the boiler (this will now be cold fresh water from the hose), pipe is not obstructed.

If so, cold water is then trully, excess capacity and your system has 2x + the water capacity needed to make steam and heat the house, pipes being the storage for all that water.

SO, this would be my absolute first step.

Then, we can add main venting and address other issues with overaized boiler. Main venting you can do yourself. The rest, with gas controls and downfiring, will have to be done by a pro. All that jazz is a bit above my paygrade too. I am however, familiar with concepts and what they do, as I explained before.

Steam boiler is a pot on the burner. Just like you can control it when cooking pasta or steaming veggies, one should be able to tune up the system, even if oversized, to create conditions you want. Cast iron boiler will take more or less water and can be heated with a bigger or a smaller fire. Trick is finding a pro that can do it.

Some people here on the board have done it on their systems, themselves. But as pros, even if in the know, doing it on someone else's system is another story, for obvious legal reasons.

So you may have to settle for the best "good enough" option, and that may be getting these mechanical things straighten out (venting and draining), and then getting the 2 stage gas valve to simmer things down after the innitial high burn.

Paul48

@EzzyT is a skilled and knowledgeable steam pro. If you're willing to work with him, he'll give you an efficient, silent system.

dennis53

Hang in there- with patience and persistence, you will succeed in the end, especially with @EzzyT on your side.

I think your short cycling is primarily due to an oversized boiler, but just a few thoughts on the water level and relief valve. In a steam boiler, the relief valve should be mounted above the normal water line. When you open it on a cold boiler, there should be no water present. If there is water, either your boiler is overfilled, or the relief valve is mounted too low. I would not recommend testing the valve on an actively steaming boiler.

You could shut off the water supply to the autofill device. Check the water level in the sight glass several times daily. While this would not help short cycling due to low water, it would make it obvious if there is a leak in the system. If the LWCO is operating properly, the boiler would shut off and not come back on regardless of pressure.

Dennis

Fred

If you can get @EzzyT 's eyes on your system, he will definitely be able to tell you what needs to be done to resolve your problems, right from venting, piping, possible trap, clogged or no clogged wet returns, gas vale staging, etc. I hope you take full advantage of this opportunity!

SteamyKitty

Milan D- I do not have any idea what my pressuretrol was originally set to. I remember the pressure gage not moving off the 0 though. The vents are dripping a little bit when I looked before but I can hear there is a lot more water action (gurgling).

I messed around with the wet returns for a couple hours today. Cold water unless I drain while the boiler is running and then it still wasn't hot hot, it's odd. Once I ran the hot and drained it a few times the return line that is always cold did get hot. This was before I read the more detailed instructions from you Milan D. Your instructions are excellent by the way.

The black Union I was calling "a big nut" lmao and Plug I should have known what that is, I did know I just didn't realize I did until I looked at your link. I hate to not follow through on everything you took the time to write out for me and part of me is so curious to know that I want to try but I am scared I will break something so I am going to wait for EzzyT.

Thank you Dennis, I am hanging in!

I was hoping someone would eventually welcome the puzzle/challenge and want to help and be curious or interested in taking the systems issues seriously and getting to the bottom of it. I have received that here with all of you beyond my wildest expectations. Thank you all for caring and thinking outside the box and taking me seriously and believing me and studying my pictures and asking such amazing questions and giving such great directions and if any of you need anything (I don't know if I have any skills like what you guys have) but I would come through and do my best whatever anyone needs. A research paper on dinosaurs? The best price on new timberland boots? Organizing a steam heat reunion party?

I sent EzzyT a private message. Hell yes I will take advantage of this opportunity. I feel so lucky.

Best,
Alison

Jean-David Beyer

Could the pigtail have been nearly plugged up, resulting in long cycles, and the previous tech this year have cleanded it out?

MilanD

Your dinosaur research skills got you here! Kudos!

EzzyT will take care of you for sure. I am just curious as to that cold wet return pipe. So it finally did get warm from the condensate - thus, not plugged?

Anyhow, after you connect to Ezzy and get all this figured out, post back to let us know what exactly was going on. We all learn from each other here.

Best of luck!

SteamyKitty

Jean-David- yes that is possible

Haha thank you Milan. I spoke with EzzyT and he will be coming to check it out next week.

So the cold wet return pipe- when I hit it with the hammer it gets hot. Then today while the boiler was running I was draining it from 3 locations ( not at the same time) I will show you the 3 locations in pictures after this. 2/3 are on the wet return and one is from the boiler. The boiler one was hot and the other 2 were cold. After the boiler was running for a while and I was switching between which ones to drain while adding more water eventually it got hot from the 2 locations on the wet return (both that are always cold) -wasn't burning hot still but was not cold anymore. Also the cold pipe next to Hartford loop when I drained that it was done rather quickly- I was confused by that- I then went to the other location on the wet return and it was gross water and it was tons and tons of it- I didn't drain it completely. I noticed at this point that the wet return was about an inch above the floor and then it was on the floor like around the bend and then it was about an inch above the floor again. The opening I was draining from was right after the bend. The bend is lower than the 2 parts of wet return that are connecting to it. I think that's where the water is sitting, clog etc. I tried to see if I could raise the pipe and it wasn't moving. I think the floor changed, possibly settled (I read about that somewhere). It's odd. Ofcourse now it is cold again- when I am not forcing movement in some form it won't heat up.

I will definitely update here plus I am secretly fascinated by steam heat troubleshooting now- shh.. don't tell.

SteamyKitty

Pics

rick in Alaska

I know nothing about steam, but I can tell you in the picture number 1459, your drain hose is draped over the pipe it is draining, so it can not drain all the water out of it. If you can't get the hose below the pipe, and keep it at that level, then drain what you can, and then take the hose off and let the rest drain on the ground. It should not be much water, but if it is, use a wet vac to clean it up.
Rick

Fred

You know, much of that water, sitting in those returns, especially long wet returns may take several hours/cycles to return to the boiler. They are all filled with water all the way back to the point where the end of the main drops down into the wet return and even that vertical drop is filled up to the level of the boiler water line. So it doesn't surprise me that they feel cold, maybe barely warm. The water stacks in those wet returns and as it drops from the main, it pushes the water nearer the boiler into the boiler to replace the amount of water that steamed into the mains. I wouldn't consider the wet returns clogged just because the pipe feel cold. It probably only feels warm near where the vertical drops down from the main. Given you can drain water from those locations, they most likely are not clogged. That one near the Hartford loop that you only got a little water from probably only had a little water left in it if you drained the other end of the wet return and opened that drain before you refilled the boiler back up to it's normal level and above the Hartford loop.

MilanD

Yes,

It's not obstructed. As I thought after musing in my previous post (and Fred confirmed too), 2x + capacity of your boiler water needs stored in pipes. Well, that's one good news!

Now on to figuring out how to best vent the mains, and then 2-stage that oversized baby boiler, and get the best use of the existing set-up.

You have probably just realized one thing: you are now a steward of the steam boiler heating system. No turning back, no ripping things out - and will become steam evangelist, telling those pesky relatives who suggest ripping it out to - back off!

Welcome to the world of steam heat. You have been initiated!

SteamyKitty

Woohoo!! Thank you

Pipe

Washing my hands clean on this one. Customer emailed me requesting full refund since I "didn't take her seriously and I had no idea what I was doing."

SteamyKitty

I asked for at least half of my money back as a compromise to be fair to both of us because I thought he was trying to help me out and he did spend time here but I really don't think he should have been touching my boiler in the first place and changing settings on it and he was hired for the job under false pretenses. The person answering the phone told me he was the best person around for steam and she told me he would definitely be able to help me.

Mike has since agreed to refund me half by the way which is why it is odd to see this post above from him.

I attached a copy of my receipt that Mike sent me so you can see for yourself.

Mike- you misquoted me- that's false defamation- an offense that makes you liable. I said that my issues were out of your league and that you should of told me that. I told you I felt that you took advantage of the situation and my desperation for help. I said I did not think you were qualified to be working on my system. (You weren't)

Why don't you tell the forum what you did for all that money? Ok I will.

Please see the copy Mike gave me to confirm the information I am providing below. It is on his companies stationary. I didn't screenshot the top because my address was there.

Let's review the facts-

1. Didn't believe me and thought I had not noticed short cycling for 7 years regardless of me insisting it was new behavior.
2. Didn't listen when I said radiators were gurgling
3. Person answering his phone reassured me he was an expert in one pipe steam heating- self proclaimed expert perhaps
4. Recommended I sue the installers of my
Boiler
5. My pressuretrol was set to 2 psi diff 1.5 and he lowered it to 1 psi and 1 diff. Please see attached receipt- he was proud to write it there.
6. a boiler drain I did not ask for?
7. Raised my gas instead of lowering it
8. Forgot to put back a part on my hot water heater

I appreciate the compromise of refunding half- side note- I could have done a chargeback on my credit card and gotten all of the money back- you kind of screwed me over (not on purpose but this is an issue of incompetence) but I thought you had good intentions and wanted to give you the opportunity to do the right thing on your own.

Pipe

Pipe said:

Washing my hands clean on this one. Customer emailed me requesting full refund since I "didn't take her seriously and ........"

Lets face the facts she has a grossly oversized boiler. That equals an improper installation. Chances are the gas pressure on the gas valve was turned way down, then raised up when she had her "tuneup" in the beginning of the heating season this year.

Again, washing my hands clean on this one. Best wishes.

Fred

@SteamyKitty , we are not permitted to discuss or post proprietary pricing on this sight. I would suggest you take the screen shot off of your post. I don't think Pipe was trying to mislead you or screw you over. If he were, he would not have brought your issue to this forum, nor would he have directed you here to get help from a broader knowledge base. I know people get angry with each other over issues like this and that's unfortunate but not everything is black and white. Some things take a trial and error approach to finally get a resolution. I feel bad for both you and Pipe but I feel he did make a good faith effort to resolve your problem and even came here to see if/what he might be overlooking. Other Pros are going to be hesitant to try to fix your problem if they feel they will be subject to a situation similar to this one. JMHO.

SteamyKitty

Thank you for letting me know. I deleted it.

I don't think he was trying to mislead me either- is that how my post came across? I think he thinks he is an expert in one pipe steam heating and I disagree. I think if you reread his original post, you can see he did not believe me and my email made him second guess himself so he came here to post it to check on himself which was so thoughtful and great and I thanked him profusely for that. I reread what I wrote and I think I wrote it pretty clear that I thought he had good intentions and was trying to help me but that doesn't mean he had any business touching my boiler.

However- a persons delusions of grandeur are their responsibility- having your company tell
Customers that you are the best after the customer says "seriously I do not want a repeat of the past 7 companies that came here." To quote she said "definitely be able to help me" "he's the best" "he's the owner" "he's the person for
Steam" Well- he is still accountable for what he does regardless of how well meaning and well intentioned he is.

I was begging him to do trial and error and everything he tried was because I begged him to- he wanted to walk away and say it was an oversized boiler and I pleaded with him to take me seriously and he tried to- but he was so damn sure it was boiler size. I told him I have no one else to call and that he is on the heatinghelp
Forum and I'm counting on him.

Remember he didn't post this to the forum until he got my email. He left that day thinking the boiler did this for 7 years and for some reason I only noticed it recently. (He said that) He sent me an email with his "proof" that the issue was the boiler size- it was after he read my response to his email the next day he finally considered Maybe what I was saying to him was true and then he posted here.

Good faith effort- that's definitely subjective-I think a good faith effort starts with honestly representing yourself and definitely being on the side of caution if someone is telling you that they have already had alot of his competition here and that no one has been able to fix this so far and that I do not want someone else coming here if they are going to do the same thing as the rest and I was reassured that would not happen.

Exactly that happened- not what I signed up for. If I didn't have to keep reinforcing that it definitely used to not short cycle- maybe he could have not been fixated and perhaps he could have thought of other options. While he was here providing the actual service- He jumped to the conclusion and held on.

I don't think any truly skilled pro should be hesitant to help me if they are good at what they do (not just think it) and care about solving the problem and have the knowledge, experience, practice to do the job. If they are going to come here, not believe me, drain my boiler, tell me it's oversized well then yes they should be very concerned about getting paid because from now on I won't pay them.

A good pro would have skills in their trade, integrity and honor and not feel comfortable taking large sums of money after they misadjusted a boiler that was already having issues. I think a good pro is someone who believes their customer. A good pro would know that a customer pays you and tips you and buys you food and gives you drinks etc when a customer sees that you are competent, listening to their concerns, and working hard even if there are hiccups along the way.

It is not fun to call lots of people to your house to solve a problem and pay them all even though they don't understand how your heating system works. I paid everyone who came here and I am talking double digits of people came here and out of all of them I asked 2 for a refund- one was Mike and the other was a company who replaced my pressuretrol, told me the problem was fixed, I believed them- silly me- this is before I began studying steam heat- they left and I woke up with no heat the next day. My original pressuretrol is back on my boiler- the one they put on could not go lower than 2 PSI.

Fred, how do you explain him not knowing the pressuretrol is subtractive? Is that someone who should call themselves a steam expert?

His time is valuable right? What about mine? Mine is valuable too and he wasted my time and his time.

You guys are not intimidated by boilers because you know what you are doing. Put yourself in the customers shoes- it is gas and fire and the pressuretrol is the emergency please don't blow up system. If you don't know what you are doing- no business touching it or charging money for it.

I didnt mention any of this until he posted that here- he was trying to sabotage anyone else wanting to help me- and look what happened- you fell right into it Fred- that other pros will be hesitant.

Hey pros- if you have good intentions and are a nice person and are great at hot water heating systems (I have steam so stay away from me) and know how to tune up a boiler but don't know how to figure out issues that are not obvious on a one pipe steam heating system- stay away, don't come here I won't pay you.

But if you are a jerk, liar, you smell, you're nice, honest, rude etc. I don't care who you are and what you mean to do- as long as you know how to safely troubleshoot my heating system- I will pay you and tip you and make you coffee and recommend you to all my neighbors.

Fred

@SteamyKitty said: "I didnt mention any of this until he posted that here- he was trying to sabotage anyone else wanting to help me- and look what happened- you fell right into it Fred- that other pros will be hesitant."
@SteamyKitty , just for clarification, I am just a Homeowner, as are several of the other posters on this string, trying to help with your problems. We've all had to learn the hard way, some harder than others.