help, losing lots of water according to water fill meter

NYCDave

Hi All,

I have a house with a one-pipe steam system and a 10 year old boiler. Recently, the boiler quit, and we had a
service guy from our oil company out to have a look. He cleaned the oil burner pump, and that fixed the problem,
but while putting everything back together, he noticed that our water meter on the water refill line showed a very
big number (in the thousands). He reset it to zero and told me to keep an eye on it. That was about a month ago.
Yesterday, I was down there and had a look, and the meter showed something like 975. I believe the units are in
gallons... That seems like a *lot* of water to go through in a month, but I actually don't know how much to expect.

If I am right, and this is too much water to be losing from the system, what is the most likely culprit? I did a little
reading on here, and I think our return lines are above the ground/concrete, so there can't be any major leaks?
We get a little tiny bit of steam out of one of the radiator vents in the attic, but I can't imagine that would add up
to gallons and gallons of water? There may also be a small leak in one of the horizontal outgoing steam pipes in
the basement as the drywall around it (the former owners sealed all the basement piping behind a dry wall ceiling
for some reason) shows a bit of damage, but again it can't be gallons and gallons? Where could that much water
be going??

Many thanks!!!

David in the NYC area

Fred

Have you watched your chimney, outside, during a heating cycle? Large plums of steam would indicate the boiler has a hole in it, above the water line and is boiling away. Typical monthly water use is a quart to a gallon, on the high end of the spectrum.

BobC

A residential steam system should only use a couple of gallons a month, do you have any pipes that go under the cement floor? If you don't have pipes going under the cellar floor that size leak should be very obvious.

Bob

Ironman

The boiler shouldn't use that much water in 975 months! You've got a major leak.

Check the chimney for vapor like Fred suggested, but I still can't see that much boiling off even if there's a hole above the water line. That's an average of 32 gal. per day.

Jamie Hall

Can you find the manual for the feeder and make sure just what that number really does mean? Because, if it's gallons, you have a major leak somewhere -- and the most likely place is in the boiler, above the waterline, as @Fred said. His estimate on water use is a little optimistic for most of us -- the system I care for can use as much as a gallon a week when it is running hard -- but 975 gallons per month? no...

NYCDave

Wow, thanks for the rapid responses everyone!!! I will definitely check the chimney during a heating cycle... I can't imagine I would have missed big steam clouds billowing out (but then again, I'm inside!) and I will see what I can find out regarding the water meter and the units that it reports... maybe it's liters (?? but even that would be a lot I guess). I will also see if I can establish if any of the pipes are under the floor somehow... but wait, in one-pipe steam wouldn't the return pipes be the same as the outgoing pipes? So maybe less likely to have them under the floor?

Thanks again!

David

Ironman

No, there could very easily be pipes buried under the floor.

NYCDave

Ok, thanks Bob... makes me wonder, we have two sump pumps, and they are constantly running... we do live in a very low area, and I've always assumed it's because of that, but I wonder if we are simply pouring water out of a pipe somewhere... yeesh... What's the best way to check for this possibility?

Ironman

Infrared camera. This is discussed in another current post.

Fred

You may well have found your leak. Do those sumps run like that during the summer when the boiler is not running? Are there any pipes that come up. out of the floor and attach anywhere into the boiler or near boiler lower piping?

JUGHNE

How warm is the water coming into the sump pits. Ground or surface water should be pretty cold to the touch.

If you post some pictures of the pipes returning water to the boiler near the floor and how they get there, some of the worst fears might be ruled out.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Bring the water to 1/2 a glass and put a small mark on the glass with a sharpie when the boiler is idle and has been off for at least 20 min

Shut your water feeder down. Check the water every 2-3 hours. If you see a noticeable drop in the water level after 8 hours or so you have a substantial leak. Turn the water feeder back on to prevent a low water condition.

Abracadabra

Pics of the water meter face to confirm we are talking about gallons.

NYCDave

Here is the picture of the feed meter, it's a VXT 120, and from what I can find online it seems to display in gallons… So there's definitely a lot of water getting lost somewhere… No pipes feeding into the boiler that are under the floor though.

lchmb

how about some pictures a bit further back..see where all the piping is...would seem if your adding that much water to the boiler your fuel bill would be huge trying to heat the house...

Fred

That is gallons. That's a lot, a lot of water. Have you checked to see if steam is coming out of the chimney when the boiler is running? Are there any hot water loops off of this boiler? Is there a full basement under the house or is the house or part of it on a crawl space?

NYCDave

Will check the chimney for steam next... full basement, no hot water loops... can't imagine where it's all going!

Gordo

@NYCDave : We have seen it where the VXT feed valve is clogged or somehow not feeding water into the system (or the feed valve to the feeder is shut!), or feeding a very small amount, but enough to keep you running.

Since the feeder is actually measuring time the valve is energized and not actual "gallons" fed per se, this could result in an artificially high "gallon" count display.

Push down on the manual feed rocker switch for a minute while observing the fill rate at the sight glass.

If the water level in the sight glass doesn't go up except a few fractions of an inch in a minute, then you can stop looking for the big leak for awhile and get the VXT (or your water pressure to your boiler) fixed.

JUGHNE

Dave, the steam gods may smile upon you after all!

NYCDave

OK, thanks so much for the comment about the fill meter possibly being stuck or inaccurate, I will check that out tonight… Took another look at the meter this morning and it had gone from 953 to 959, so it reports 6 gallons overnight. Also checked the date when it was reset and that was November 16, just about sixty days ago, so thats about 16 gallons per day so 6 gallons overnight sounds about right.

Checked a few of the radiator vents in the attic and several which I know haven't been changed in years are definitely leaking a bit, and I also know we have some steam leaking in one of the basement ceiling pipes since the drywall covering where it is is slowly getting damaged. None of these leaks can be very big, but I do wonder whether they could account for 16 gallons a day? It occurred to me that our room humidifiers, which are obviously not very high power, easily do a gallon per night each so maybe a few leaky valves and a small leak in a pipe could actually add up to this much? What do people think?

Checked the chimney this morning, and no Obvious steam plume. As I said I will check to see that the Fill meter/valve is working properly...

Thanks again to everyone for their help!

Jamie Hall

@Gordo -- I'm ashamed to admit that I had a similar problem with mine a couple of years ago. Except that mine was that some idiot (me) had neglected to reopen the valve to the automatic feeder when said idiot (me) had closed it for some unrelated maintenance.

Sigh...

NYCDave

So here are pictures of the piping on the system... as I said, I don't see anything returning to the boiler that could be running through the concrete floor...?

JUGHNE

I am sure you have checked those hose bibs on the lower part of the piping, but considering that you could be pursuing a serious leak, I would remove the hoses and cap the hose fitting.

We can see one return line against the wall and going behind the oil tank. How much more of it can you see in the basement.
Where are your main air vents?

Do you have a cold water shut off above the water filler/meter?

Johnson_Rod

Just a homeowner here, but I would look closely at that bottom spigot that has the green garden hose. You have an above ground wet return -- that whote pipe coming back to the boiler that passes and joins with the feed water line.

I'd watch the end of that green hose for water loss and/or around the spigot. Especially based on your comment about the sump pump. Looks like there may already be dampness and discoloration near there.

JUGHNE

That return looks to be borderline as to being wet or dry. Just right at the water line. Don't think it would contribute to the excess high water consumption read out though.

Fred

I'm leaning towards it being a problem with the water feeder/timer/display as Gordo says. That much water, if it were real, has to go somewhere and be obvious.

NYCDave

@JUGHNE, I will check out the hose bibs, as you suggest. I think this is the only return line. Unfortunately, the previous owners put drywall up everywhere in the basement except the boiler room, so outside of this room, I can't see any of the pipes... considering removing some of that now, especially since in one spot, it's clear the dry wall is degrading due to moisture. @Johnson_Rod, that green hose goes right into the sump pit, so I will pull it out into a bucket and see if anything is coming out of there. I would expect, naively, that the handles on that and the other hose bib would be fully closed, so that the water goes back to the boiler, and that these are there for draining purposes, is that not right?

Thanks again!

David

JUGHNE

Did you follow Gordo's suggestion above? Push the switch see if it really adds water.....you would probably hear it running. Click the switch several times, you should get a distinct sound.

I would remove the hoses from the drains, those are notorious for dripping/seeping. Get brass caps to put on them.

If after these two items don't turn anything up then it may be time to remove some sheetrock.
So you can't see any main vents on the system?

NYCDave

Thanks again @JUGHNE, I will follow @Gordo's suggestion when I get home tonight to see if the water filler actually adds water and will report... though honestly I'm not exactly sure where to push, hopefully it'll be obvious when I look at it. I need to explore to see if I can access the main vents... there are a few cutouts in the sheet rock here and there (water main, water meter, etc.) so I'm hoping they were smart/considerate enough to perhaps leave some access to the vents as well... will post my findings tomorrow as well. Just starting to realize how complicated a heating system can be!

Ironman

I know this is not directly related, but your boiler is not piped correctly. Your gonna get a lot of wet steam the way it is. Add in some leaking vents and valve packings, and that would account for some water loss.

NYCDave

Thanks @ironman! Someone told me this before, but didn't explain... can you elaborate please? What is wrong with the piping set up that will cause wet steam?

I tested the water feeder tonight twice... first time the water in the glass viewer actually dropped down suddenly at first and then ended up back where it started after 1 minute (which should equal one gallon). Second time it went up maybe half an inch or so (see before/after pics)... could also clearly hear water flowing and pipes past feeder got cold. I checked the strainer for good measure and it was clean, so feed meter is probably not malfunctioning...

Tried to see if I could find any main vents but they are not visible from any of the access points... not sure what kind of mornings nscdecided to wall everything in!!! I did look more carefully at where there was dry wall damaged and I can see this is a point where there is a T in the main with a pipe going up, presumably a riser...? The joint looked ok, nothing no obvious suggesting a leak, so now I wander if the leak could be higher up and the moisture could be dripping down the pipe? Sigh..

Gordo

Ok, your VXT does indeed feed water into your system, so it is clear you are losing water somewhere... perhaps several little "somewheres".

"Crypto-leaks" I call 'em. The devil to track down, sometimes.

I think, however, that while your VXT is feeding water, it is feeding very very slowly. So, while it reads that it fed "6" gallons, those are what I call "VXT virtual gallons", somewhat less than real Imperial gallons.

You still have leaks. And they should be repaired ASAP, no question.

Fred

Any chance that spigot on the bottom of that return pipe (with the hose that loops over the water pipe) is against the floor and not fully closed, letting water run through the hose and into the sump well?

JUGHNE

There were 2 hoses connected that way and the HO said he was going to disconnect them.

NYCDave

Hey @Fred, @JUGHNE, I pulled the hose that loops over the water pipe out of the sump, and checked for any water coming out. Nothing coming out, even when I was running the feed manually to check the meter. I also double checked that the valves are fully closed on this hose bib and on the other... I will still plug them I guess (don't know why they are there?), just need to go out and get a cap fitting...

I ordered new valves for the leaky radiators, and hopefully this weekend will remove the damage sheet rock near one of the long main runs where there is clearly moisture damage to see if I can figure out what's leaking there... I'll see if any of that slows down the refill rate.

Longer term, I guess I should expose all of the main pipes, both so I can insulate them (they are all bare) and so I can access and check the main vents... but that may take a while, it's a lot of sheet rock (wish they had never put it in in the first place!!!).

I am curious to know if there is any way to find out how much damage all this new water (with oxygen I guess) has done to the boiler... There is a little metal swing door that lets me look inside, but I have no idea what I am looking at... looks like a big empty rusty chamber... no water there... I seem to recall seeing flames in there once when the boiler was running, so maybe that's a combustion chamber?

Fred

That sounds like the combustion chamber. Not many ways to tell what impact all that water has had on the boiler until it leaks and then the only option is to replace it. I am still having a difficult time understanding where 16 gallons of water a day can go and not be hugely obvious. You're not going to lose that much water from leaky valves or bad vents. Just not possible to push that much water out of them and even if you could, the humidity would be staggering.
If I were you, I would mark the water line on the sight glass, drain a gallon from the boiler drain and then add water using the auto water feed to bring it back up to the original water line and see if that registers a gallon on the water meter. I'm still thinking there is some kind of failure with that meter.

NYCDave

Thanks @Fred, that sounds like a good idea! As @Gordo wrote, there is definitely some leaking, and I need to fix it, but I would really like to know if it's 16 gallons a day, or something less. Am I correct that to drain water from the boiler, I should use the hose bib directly below the sight glass? Just double checking since I haven't done this before.

Also, is there any way to know how much water is in the boiler, and how much a gallon more (or less) should move the water level in the sight glass?

Thanks again!

Fred

That boiler should have somewhere between 7 to maybe ten gallons of water in it. It really doesn't matter to determine if the water meter is registering correctly. Just turn the boiler off, note the reading on the water meter, put a mark or a piece of tape where the water is on the sight glass, drain however much water out as would allow you to be able to see see a lower level, at least 1 gallon, maybe two but put that drained water in a container that you are sure is a container that will let you accurately measure the amount you took out and then use the auto feeder to refill to the line and see how close the meter reads to what you took out when you reach the line or tape mark you put on the sight glass.
Yes the spigot under the sight glass.

Ironman

This is the correct way to pipe that boiler as per Burnham's Heating Manual:


The drop header is the better method as it assures 99% dry steam. All steam mains should be tapped off the header AFTER the boiler risers.

NYCDave

Thank you!!! This must seem obvious to all of you but I am just starting to learn… I guess what this does is make sure that anything that condenses right out of the boiler falls back into the boiler?

Jamie Hall

Exactly. Well, sort of -- since the header should have a pitch away from the risers and towards the equalizer, the condensate gets back in right away through the equalizer. Further, if the geometries are correct, not only any condensation, but any water droplets that were in the stream will return right away -- they simply can't make the corner into the risers.