help, losing lots of water according to water fill meter

NYCDave

@Fred , @Gordo , everyone else: went down this morning to check the feed meter. I marked the water level in the sight glass, took out a gallon of water as suggested by Fred, and saw the water level dropped about half an inch in the sight glass. then turned the feed on for one minute (should be one gallon). The level in the sight glass barely budged. I ran it for another minute and again the level barely budged. So, I thought we had an explanation finally (!). then I ran the feed another minute and this time the level jumped up past where it had been before I remove the one gallon. See pics. This seemed very strange, so I decided to try the experiment again. I marked the level, and pulled out another gallon through the drain. This time the level of water in the sight glass didn't drop at all!! So now it seems that my sight glass is not working reliably, making it impossible to get any information regarding the feed meter. Any ideas on why the sight glass may not be responding reliably?

Thanks as usual!!!

( first picture is water level after removing 1 gallon, top of tape marks water level at the start. Second picture is the one gallon in the milk jug. Third fourth and fifth pictures are after running the water for one minute then another minute than a third minute)

BobC

The ports from the sight glass ports into the boiler are gunked up. Take out the sight glass and try and work a #14 wire through the valve into the boiler casting, this probably wont help but it's worth a try. If that does no good the sight glass fittings have to be removed and the ports cleaned out.

i would then flush the boiler out a few times and use a wand to get in there and clean it out. t might also be worth while to throw in some washing soda and let the boiler steam for a couple of hours, followed by a few complete flushings. All of this will have to be done when you can live without the boiler for half a day or more.

Once everything is really clean throw in a couple of Steamaster tablets to keep it clean. I've used it for 4 years and my boiler water is as clean as it was the first day.

Bob

NYCDave

Thanks @BobC! Not so sure if I can take this on myself or not... I guess I have to drain the boiler, which I presume is as simple as opening the drain hose bib and letting all the water out... Then do I just unscrew the sight glass connections at the boiler body? I'm guessing getting them out should be doable if they are not rusted in there... but not sure about getting them back in without leaks... do you use teflon tape or anything? That's what I've done with radiator valves, but this is a different animal... Are there torque specifications? I would hate to strip or shear one of these...

As for a wand... clueless as to what that is, but I have read others mention steamaster tablets, which seems like a good idea, but I don't know where/how you are supposed to get them into the boiler? Similarly, people mention skimming a lot, but again not sure where to get access...

My first goal at the moment is to get the glass reading reliably, so I can then determine just how much water I am really losing, so I can then find/fix the leaks... so I may just remove the glass to clean it out and put it back, and save boiler cleaning until spring?

Thanks again to all for advice and patience!

JeffM

To take the glass out, just carefully unscrew the nuts at either end of the glass. Those nuts compress a gasket which seals the glass to the fittings. The glass is short enough to slide into one of the fittings and be tipped out for removal (clean it while out). You may want to have spare gaskets on hand for refitting the glass in case the old ones have hardened or get damaged.

Fred

@NYCDave I'm not sure the sight glass tappings are clogged at all. The fact that you were able to drain a gallon of water out of the boiler and the sight glass level dropped suggests to me that the sight glass is fine. Also, the fact that the level in the sight glass rose above the tape line in your second test again implies the sight glass is fine. It sounds to me like the water feeder is defective. It sounds like it intermittently fails to lift the solenoid to allow water to feed but still registers water based on time and when it does lift the valve and feeds water, it adds a bit more than a gallon. That part is fine. It isn't going to be 100% accurate since incoming water pressure varies and the unit of measure is actually time rather than flow. My guess is that the problem is the water feeder. It doesn't feed water, most of the time so the LWCO calls for water multiple times. Occasionally it feeds water and brings the boiler back to it's normal level.

NYCDave

Thanks @Fred , I hope you're right!!
I noticed another post about frequent feed, to which someone( @scully) responded: Isolate the feeder (essentially turning it off). See if it actually goes off on low water and how long it takes.

Do you think that's a reasonable strategy to try here as well?

Fred

NYCDave said:

Thanks @Fred , I hope you're right!!

I noticed another post about frequent feed, to which someone( @scully) responded: Isolate the feeder (essentially turning it off). See if it actually goes off on low water and how long it takes.



Do you think that's a reasonable strategy to try here as well?

I certainly do as long as you are sure your Low Water Cut off is working like it should or you watch the boiler every couple hours until you are comfortable it is not losing water. Keep me posted

NYCDave

Hey Everyone. Sorry for the pause in progress reports, I decided I wasn't up for either unclogging my sight glass, or trusting my low water cutoff valve. Instead, I called our oil company to see if they would have a look. The guy came in, heard my story, pulled the big pipe that takes the exhaust to the chimney out of the top of the boiler, looked inside, and said I have a hole (actually two holes) in the boiler... showed me... sure enough, a hole.

So, that finally explains the missing 30 gallons/day of water. Several people suggested this was the likely problem, but I checked several times and never saw any steam coming from the chimney. Maybe the hole wasn't big enough for that? I also didn't know one could just pull out the exhaust pipe and have a look...

He checked out the place where there was dry wall damage and said that must have been a steam leak, but it's not leaking now, so he said it must have 'scabbed over'... now sure what he meant, rusted shut perhaps?

I also asked him where the main vents might be, and he said could be anywhere, have to open up the sheet rock... so that's now on the long term plan.

In the meanwhile, we need a new boiler, so I am now asking for opinions on sticking with oil, versus converting to natural gas!! A whole new topic!! Also asking for recommendations on boiler installers in the Westechest County, NY area. We will probably wait until summer to install it, as even at 30 gallons/day, it's not much on the water bill, and even if we burn some extra oil for a few months, I'd rather get it done when we don't have to worry about frozen pipes if something goes wrong or takes too long...

Many thanks to everyone here for all the advice, I have learned a lot (and realized, I have a lot more still to learn!!!).

Fred

Sorry to hear this update but at least the mystery is solved. There are some excellent Pross on here who may cover your area, when you are ready to hqve it done. Be sure to line one of them up so you will know the job gets done right. Also, in the meantime, try to find those main vents. Start looking in the areas around the ends of the mains where they drop down to the wet returns at the floor. Stay on this site from time to time to keep us posted.

NYCDave

Thanks Fred!!! Also thinking already I need to look into (or perhaps have the guy who does the install job look into) why this boiler failed... It was installed in 2005, and I thought these were supposed to last 20-25 years, so seems a bit soon... I supposed if there was a smaller leak initially, that could still have led to enough oxygenated water intake to erode the boiler and lead to the hole? I guess in the future, I will keep a closer tab on how much water is being fed in! Live and learn...

ChrisJ

Looks like a Burnham V8 series?
Sadly, they're known for this.

Fred

What model Burnham boiler is it? Burnham had some serious problems with the IN 7's. Seems the castings were subject to rusting through very early. If you decide to stay with oil, many swear by Burnham's Megasteam boilers. If you convert to gas, there are other options out there that may be less sensitive to water quality and rust through. I have a 34 year old Burnham that still purrs like a kitten but when the time comes to replace it, I'm not sure that the replacement will be a Burnham, given their track record over the past 10 years. Of course, none of them are made like they use to be.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

What model Burnham boiler is it? Burnham had some serious problems with the IN 7's. Seems the castings were subject to rusting through very early. If you decide to stay with oil, many swear by Burnham's Megasteam boilers. If you convert to gas, there are other options out there that may be less sensitive to water quality and rust through. I have a 34 year old Burnham that still purrs like a kitten but when the time comes to replace it, I'm not sure that the replacement will be a Burnham, given their track record over the past 10 years. Of course, none of them are made like they use to be.

I believe they had the same issues with both the V7 series and V8 series.

IN series is atmospheric gas.

adambnyc

You might want to consider working with one of the pros here earlier than in the spring. If the holes are small enough, there is a chance that a temporary patch could be put on it while you work toward the plan of the rip and replace.

Do you have natural gas available to you? That's probably the first question when considering an oil to gas conversion. Also, do you have an above ground oil tank or a UST?

j a_2

Flll the boiler manually,till u feel cold water in the risers just on top of the boiler, we call this flooding the boiler....Check for any obvious leaves....When the tech was there and informed you of the meter readings did you have him investigate...That much water usage has got to be completely obvious,or there is a error with the vtx....me I do not like auto feeders. Counter or no counter....It's only a back up to the low water cutoff....

NYCDave

Thanks @Ja, the first service guy who noticed the meter was there very late at night to clear a clogged oil pump, so he didn't have time to explore, and I didn't realize how much of a problem it was till I notice the meter had run up hundreds of gallons a few months after he had reset it.

We now have visually confirmed a whole in the boiler (likely two) but I didn't know about the flooding approach, so will file that away for the future.

@adambnyc, thanks for the suggestion of patching the boiler, I hadn't thought about that... The holes are not that easy to see... one looked to be about an inch in diameter, can something that big still be patched? The other looked much smaller... Also, I have been reading that you can sometimes replace individual segments of the boiler... is that worth exploring, or is it better just to do a wholesale replacement?

BobC

You can just replace a boiler section but the cost of the labor to do so is expensive and another section could fail in short order depending on the cause of the failure.

Bob

NYCDave

Hi All... Time to revive this thread, as our local plumber hauled off the old boiler with the hole, plumbed in natural gas, and installed a new IN8 Burnham gas-fired boiler (with a Honeywell 404F-1367 pressuretrol and a cycle-guard probe-type CG400-2090 LWCO switch). I thought our heating troubles were over... Not so!

First the good news. After running for 4 days, the new boiler has not required any additional water! This means the 40 gallons/day we were losing with the old boiler were all going through the hole, no other significant leaks in the system, that's a relief.

Now the bad news. After three days of cold radiators, I started observing the boiler, and here is what it does: It comes on for one minuted. During that minute the water in the sight glasses bounces around and goes down until there is only a bit of foam at the bottom. At that point, the boiler cuts out. About 3-5 seconds later, a little orange light comes on on the bottom of the cycle-guard LWCO. The boiler stays off for 10-20 minutes, before repeating this same behavior. Once the boiler is off, the water in the sight glass returns to its original point, which is about 3/4 of the way up, where it should be according to the manual. So it seems to me that when the boiler is on, the water is boiling so violently that it somehow triggers the LWCO probe... but I have no idea why this could be. For the one minute that the boiler is on, I can feel one of the main vents venting well, and some of the radiator vents on the second floor, so it seems that it's making steam ok, but 1 minutes is not enough to warm the rads up at all. Also, I can't figure out why the boiler doesn't come back on sooner! The orange light on the cycle guard only stays on for a second or so, and I would think once the water settles back to the original level, the boiler would ignite again? Anyone offer any clues/suggestions?

Note that I did check the gas meter to see how many cubic feet were being used when the boiler is on, and it was about 2 cubic feet every 30 seconds. According to the boiler manual, this translates to 240,000 BTU, which is around the max boiler input, so this seem ok (?). Also note the pressuretrol cutoff is set very low, ~0.5 PSI, and the cutin must be at basically 0 PSI and raising the cutoff to ~2 PSI did not make a difference, so I don't see a pressure issue.

Jamie Hall

Oh dear. Did anyone bother to skim that new boiler? Sounds to me as though you need to skim. And skim some more. And maybe still some more.

The LWCO is sensing a low water level due to the boiler water bounding all over the place (and getting into the headers and the system and everywhere). There is probably a time delay set on the Cycle Guard (there should be).

You might also post a few pictures of the boiler and near boiler piping -- if the boiler wasn't skimmed it may not have been piped quite as well as it might have been, either...

NYCDave

Thanks Jamie!! I don't think the plumbers did any skimming... I will ask them but honestly I'm not 100% they know what that is. I tried hard to find someone local who was more of a steam expert, but then we needed to pull the trigger and get someone in before winter set in.

I'm kind of surprised the boiler stays off for so long.. does anyone know how/where the time delay is set on the cycle-guard? Also, if it detects low water, shouldn't it feed new water into the boiler? (thankfully it doesn't do that, but I don't know why).

I looked at the manual as well, and it recommends removing oil from the system by boiling-out the boiler after 3 days... seems to involve adding boil-out compound, boiling for three hours, draining the boiler and washing with high-pressure spray... sounds like a lot of work... the plumber certainly didn't do that, should I ask them to do that and would it help?

MilanD

Pics please. Boiler losing all the water in 5 minutes is very strange. It's possible he didn't pipe in Hartford loop or equalizer and the water is backing into wet return... that's old and not flushed/cleaned, and water has hard time coming back. If it were full of water and boiling violently one would think that as soon as it turns off, water would settle, probe would sense water and the boiler will fire up again. Then again, it may be pushing all the water into the main, and it takes a while for it to make its way back through the wet return...

We need pictures, or a video of and around the boiler (controls, piping, returns) as it's doing what it's doing to be able to pinpoint what's going on.

Is the boiler piped as the installation manual picture shows?

NYCDave

Thanks MilanD! I will try to get some pics and maybe a video when I get home tonight... The near-boiler piping is probably not ideal... For one thing, the manual says minimum 24" height between normal water line and the first 90 degree elbow in the riser, and I think we are around 20". I think this is because the new boiler is taller than the old one, and they didn't want to redo too much piping. Second, there is no drop header, after the first bend, the riser goes horizontally for about 8 inches, then there is another 90 degree elbow back to vertical and a few more inches of pipe to the header... I guess I need pics.

That said, the water in the sight glass returns back to normal water level very quickly after the boiler cuts out, so I don't think it's losing any water, though I agree I would have thought that as soon as the water was back, the probe would sense and turn the boiler back on... I'm mystified why it stays off so long...

Jamie Hall

Oh dear. Again. We need pictures. Your description of the piping doesn't sound very promising, somehow.

And your description of the skimming process is way off base. Skimming isn't hard, just time consuming -- and it does need to have a skim port on the boiler to make it work. No chemicals or additives involved.

Try looking for skim in the search function here -- a number of threads on the subject.

NYCDave

Thanks again Jamie! I will provide pictures after I get home tomorrow... Still, I will say that the old boiler, which had basically the same piping, worked reasonably well... I mean, there were probably inefficiencies, it definitely wasn't perfect, but the boiler came on, the radiators got hot, not too much noise, all in all everything was fine until it rusted out.

As for skimming, I understand (thanks to this site) it's not complicated, what I was describing was the procedure called 'boil out' that's described in the owner's manual, and I was wondering if that would also help, mainly because I can show that to the plumber and say 'hey, the manual says you're supposed to do that and you didn't'... whereas if I just tell him that someone told me you are supposed to skim the boiler, he'll just roll his eyes or something...

So, do you guys think 'boiling out' the boiler also help the water boil more quietly?

MilanD

Near boiler piping and 24" from water line to header is crucial in good operations. Esp. if the new boiler has a higher water line.

I am sorry to say, it sounds like you will need to have things repiped to spec, and skimmed for proper operation.

If you don't want to skim (it's easy but time consuming), you may be use tsp or lye to clean it by way of soaking it at 180*F and then wanding. I'm attaching cleaning instruction from Weil McLain for their boilers - should be safe on all boilers. Lye mixed with water makes for a strong soap, or use TSP - although it's banned in some municipalities, so check if you can use it. If using chemicals, always follow safety protocol and use personal protective gear, esp eye and hands protection.

Here's the video of my wanding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGKQwAFQD0A

This is Geery Gill doing it:
https://youtu.be/q1tw9rz-pUk

Fred

As has been said, the boiler needs to be skimmed, skimmed and skimmed some more to get all the oils off of the surface of the water. Hopefully the installer installed a skim port (above the normal water line. If he didn't have him do it! As for the boiler staying off for 20 minutes, that is the way that dreaded Cyclegard LWCO works. Most people change them out for a Safegard, which doesn't shut down like that. I believe the Cyclegard has some dip switches that will allow you to shorten the time down to about 10 minutes but even that isn't ideal for a steam boiler.
Pictures of the piping the plumber did will help too! I just hope the plumber read the installation instructions before he installed it. Now is the time to correct any plumbing errors, if there are some.

NYCDave

Ok, thanks guys, it's so cool that this resource exists!!! On the other hand, I don't understand why the plumbers never seem to know any of this stuff, I mean, this guy came highly recommended, he must have installed a bunch of gas boilers before, is mine the only one that needed skimming???

Regarding skimming, I do actually have a question/problem if I try to do it myself... since the boiler is only ever running for one minute at a time, how do I get it hot before skimming? Aren't you supposed to let it run for a while before shutting it off to skim?

Also, if I don't have a skim port, how hard is to put one in myself, and/or can I use a different port that's already there?

Thanks again!

KC_Jones

NYCDave said:

Also, if I don't have a skim port, how hard is to put one in myself, and/or can I use a different port that's already there?

Thanks again!

He should have put it in, it's right in the manual along with the proper procedure to execute the skimming. All he has to do is read.

Does your contract state doing it to manufacturers spec? I'd get him to do it because that's what you paid him to do.

How did he size the new boiler? Did he measure all the rads in the house and match that to the boiler rating? If the header is low, no skimming or even thought of skimming I wonder if it was even sized correctly.

I can't wait to see the pictures.

Jamie Hall

As to keeping the boiler running - you don't have to. Part of the genius of skimming is that you bring the boiler up to a simmer -- not a boil and hold it there or close to it, by turning the burner off, then letting it cool a bit, then back on for a bit, and so on. You shouldn't have any problem doing that. It just takes time...

Fred

I'm concerned that you need to get this boiler fixed before the weather changes. If it is truly only running for a minute or two at a time, you won't get enough steam (if any) to heat the house. Post some pictures soon

NYCDave

Thanks Fred!! That's a big concern of mine as well. I will take pictures tonight. However, realistically, I am very dubious that this plumber is willing to tear apart the near-boiler piping and redo it all, so I am guessing for the moment I am stuck with that. The challenge is to make the system work well enough until that can be addressed maybe next summer. Sounds like a good boiler cleaning/skimming may save the day if I can either get him to do it or figure out a way to do it myself. Regarding doing it myself, I'm still not sure how I would 'bring the boiler up to a simmer'... at the moment, the only control I have over it is via the thermostat, and the only thing that does is cause it to run for one minute, and then the cycle guard kills it for the next 15 minutes... don't know how to get around that to do the skimming...

MilanD

I'm afraid you don't understand. With improperly piped header, even a skimmed and cleaned boiler will suck the water up the header and you simply won't be able to heat at all. Best case you get the cycle guard to fire the boiler right away as the water returns, but that's about it. You'll be cycling the boiler without making much steam. This is mostly a piping issue.

I hope you didn't pay him yet for this sub-par install.

Fred

While you are skimming it, you can bypass the LWCO by wiring around it Just while you are skimming though). That will allow you to bring the water to a boil. That LWCO is an issue you have to address before the weather gets really cold. You should have an owner's manual for that Cyclegard. It should give you the dip switch settings for shorter off times. Ideally you would change that Cyclegard out for a Safegard. The probes are the same so you just need to switch out the control box. You can't go through the winter with 1 or 2 minute run cycles and 15 to 20 minute off times.Skimming will help that as getting a stable water level will not trip the LWCO.
Look in your boiler manual. It will show you the boiler tapping for the skim port. Now is the time to put that in as the plugs should be easy to get out of a new boiler. That is also the biggest reason I suggested getting the boiler piped correctly. Getting those fittings apart after a full heating season will be an added challenge. But let's see how he plumbed it. It may be that he did a decent job. We're just skeptical, without pictures.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Fear. Fear of another installer who can't or refuses to read the boiler installation manual.

We can only try to educate homeowners that when they hire an installer that they (the homeowners) must read the boiler manual themselves and at least become famalier with the basics because unfortunately too many installers don't care and can't read

NYCDave

Ok, here are the pics... I expect much derision, but as I said, this plumber will not fix the piping, I don't know how to do it myself, and the old boiler worked ok with this setup... however, I'm of course very curious as to your opinions! Also, on the left side of the boiler, where the safety valve is attached, it seems he put in a T-junction with a valved off outlet. I am hoping this is an outlet I could use for skimming?

Plumber came by yesterday, but haven't heard from him yet what he saw/tried/thinks. It seems he added some water because the water level in the glass is a few inches higher, but that (obviously) didn't fix the problem... boiler still tripping off every minute.

I'll be looking at the cycle-guard (if I can find a manual online, none came with the install) to see if I can shorten the off period... surprisingly, with the boiler firing for ~1 minute every 10-15 minutes, the basement is quite hot, and our house seems porous enough that a fair amount of heat gets to the first and second floors as well, so hopefully that will buys us enough time before the weather gets *really* cold, and I'm hoping in the worst case would also be enough to keep pipes from freezing...

KC_Jones

NYCDave said:

Ok, here are the pics... I expect much derision, but as I said, this plumber will not fix the piping,

Not trying to be confrontational here, but you paid him to pipe the boiler correctly which he did not. So you are ok with paying him for something he didn't do?

I see this on here pretty regularly and I kind of don't understand why homeowners are so afraid of contractors. It's your money, not mine so do what you like.

What is funny to me is he went to extra effort and used extra fittings to do it incorrectly, that makes no sense to me.

Img3207 I am guessing is what he thinks is a skim tapping, but the actual skim tapping is behind the knockout that he didn't remove and it's larger which will work better.

I attached an image of a very rough approximation of what it should be and also crossed out all the unecessary piping that he added for no good reason that I can think of. I can think of bad reasons, but those aren't valid in my world.

Also as I said before how did he size it? That is a massive boiler so I would guess you have a very large house? Out of curiosity what is the square footage of the house?

NYCDave

Hi KC and Thanks! We do have a pretty big house, about 3100 sq. feet, and the previous boiler was a similar sized Burnham oil-burning unit (V86), so I think they simply sized based on that. Also, I should have included a picture of the previous boiler and its piping, since from what I can tell, the plumber mostly wanted to minimize changes to the piping, so some of the additional elbows seem left over from the old setup... Which is now attached.

Fred

Well, I've seem much worse. My biggest concern is that he could have added another elbow on the riser out of the boiler to give you a true swing joint which minimizes the risk of stress on the boiler casting.
The second thing I would have wanted would have been for both mains to drop down into the header, individually, instead of tee off of the one main.
If it were me, I would want the piping improved, but I would have been there looking over his shoulder, the entire time. That's just how I am. That piping is not the cause of your current problem. Skim it several times, very slowly and that may take care of your problem. Change out the Cyclegard or see if it can be reprogrammed. Those are the two issues that need immediate attention. You can skim off of that 3/4" pipe but you have a 1" or 1.25" tapping right next to it (behind the panel knockout) that would be much better.

NYCDave

Thanks Fred!! Interestingly, the old setup did have each main coming off the header separately... not sure why he changed that.

I have asked him to clean/skim the boiler and pointed out that the manual explicitly says this should be done as part of the installation... I hope he will do it...

Regarding the cycle-guard, this is very frustrating, The manual is very skimpy, and in particular, I can't find anywhere information about why it shuts the boiler down for so long. All the product info says that it has a 15 second burner off delay and a 30 second burner on delay... so the boiler should just come back on, but it doesn't... could it be wired wrong? There is a separate Intermittent test feature, where every 10 minutes it turns the boiler off to check the water level, but again that only lasts for 90 seconds and then the boiler comes back on... There is no info anywhere on such a long boiler off delay... Anybody know anything about this???

Also, if push comes to shove, I guess we will have to bypass the cycle guard to get some heat out of this boiler... any suggestions on the best way to do that? I guess I have to jump/bypass some connection somewhere, but which one and where? In the cycle guard? In the junction box? I'm ok with circuits but no whiz...

Thanks All!!!

KC_Jones

The cyclegaurd is a safety device, don't ever bypass it unless you plan on babysitting the boiler. That means living with it and never sleeping.

Yes tying those mains together actually was a downgrade from the original. Like I said he did extra work and extra fittings to make it wrong, there is no logic there.