help, losing lots of water according to water fill meter

Fred

@NYCDave , That off time on the Cyclegard is suppose to be a "feature" of that unit and one that causes most people to get rid of them. The boiler is shut down for 10 to 20 minutes to allow enough time for any foaming in the boiler to subside and for any water in the returns to flow back to the boiler. The problem will be lessened when you get the boiler skimmed and the water line stabilizes but it will never go away as long as you use the Cyclegard and that will affect the boiler efficiency. I mean who wants a steaming boiler shut down every few minutes to check the water level? Also, keep in mind that this unit will not re-energize the burner until the water level, in the boiler reaches the probe, which may explain why the boiler is off so long, especially given the need for skimming. Make sure the probe/unit is mounted in the right boiler tapping (not too high) and that the probe doesn't have a lot of wraps of teflon tape where it screws into the boiler. That probe must ground itself to the cast iron boiler.

NYCDave

Thanks Fred.. from what the manual says, it shuts the boiler down at intervals of 10 or 20 minutes (depending on the model) but the duration of the shutdown should only be 30 seconds... in our case, the water in the sight glass returns to the normal level and stops bouncing around pretty quickly (1 minute) so at that point the probe should be covered in water again and should allow the burner to fire... that's what I just don't understand... will look for teflon tape, but at least on one occasion, I have seen the intermittent test engage (green light at bottom goes on, boiler shuts down for 90 seconds and then comes back on) so I can't imagine that would work if the ground is not connected...

sigh...

As I said, we may have to bypass it, and yes, if I do that, I will have to babysit the boiler during that time... maybe one or two cycles a night can keep us warm enough...?

NYCDave

However, I still don't know how to bypass the thing... guess we'll have to see if we still have our electric space heaters down in the basement

JUGHNE

Did you check in the boiler manual to see if the LWCO probe is located correctly? Then perhaps a wiring issue.

Fred

I don't want to be the one to tell you how to bypass the LWCO as I would feel horrible if you made that the norm and the boiler dry fired. One other thing I noticed that is also a safety issue. The Pressure Relief Valve (PRV) on that Tee with what he set up as a skim port. The PRV must be upright (vertical). On it's side like that, it could corrode and not open should the pressure get too high. Turn that Tee 90 degrees and put a short nipple and elbow on the PRV and then put the copper pipe back on so it drops to the floor.

BTW, you can do a cold skim. just turn the power to the boiler off, Open that skim valve, raise the water up so that water starts to trickle out, very slow trickle, put a garden hose on the end of that pipe and run it over to a floor drain. Let it trickle like that over night, with the power to the boiler off.

NYCDave

Thanks again Fred, I appreciate the caution! I will mention the PRV valve... when people said it had to be vertical, I thought it meant the little metal bar had to be aligned up-down, I didn't know it meant the pipe had to rise vertically...

I have finally figured out the long delay for the boiler to come on, it's set by the automatic water feeder (VTX-24) to prevent flooding the boiler by waiting until steam condenses and returns to boiler... makes sense, but 10 minutes seems like a long time to wait for water to return to the boiler once it's off...? Anyway, I think that if I change that setting I can get the boiler to refire in as short as 30 seconds... of course it will be running for a minute at a time, but at least we'll get more heat out? I imagine that's not great for the boiler though...

Plumber has finally responded by email, agrees boiler is surging, says that he did some skimming yesterday (through the T-valve he put on the PRV port) and said he added cleaner to the boiler and will come again today and flush out (or skim?) the boiler... from what I've read on here, seems like folks aren't big on boiler cleaner compounds, but I guess at this point at least he has acknowledged the issue, so if his way works, I'm ok with it for now...

NYCDave

Jughne, thanks for your comment as well, LWCO is located in the correct port... I think delay is due to a setting on the VTX auto feeder...

Fred

I'm one of those people who dislikes chemical cleaners. They are alright if the boiler is run for one or two heating cycles and then drained completely and refilled. If left in the boiler, they will cause foaming and surging just like a dirty boiler. If he gets it properly skimmed, it should run a normal heat cycle. Watch what he does when he skims or follow the instructions I gave you (above) because you will need to skim it a few more times. Once the boiler and all the new piping gets hot, more oil will flow back into the boiler and another skim will be required in a few days to a week.

MilanD

Just one thought - VTX needs to be left on a delay. If your water level normalizes within 1 minute, boiler not firing is cycleguard issue. Last thing you want is more water in there - you can flood the boiler and then you'll have no heat at all. Easily remedied by draining the boiler, but why overfill it in the first place?

As to chemicals and boiler cleaning: Recotrseal 8-way cleaner can be used to clean and condition boiler water (in different concentrations).

As from my earlier message: Also, you can use TSP and lye to both clean the boiler (de-oil) and use smaller amounts safely to raise pH to 8.5+. Both TSP and lye will bind to oils and you can then drain them out. With them in, you bring the water to 180*F and leave the boiler as such for 2-3 hours. Many commercial boiler installers do this 'cook out' procedure after install and a few cycles, and then again after a few days, as the oils make their way into the boiler. They do this instead of skimming as it takes less time and has a similar if not the same outcome - oil free boiler. I'm attaching Weil McLain official service bulletin on cleaning boilers.

Last year I have also talked here on the wall with someone who ran 8-way as a blow out chemical. Add 8-way, and while steaming, use the upper sight glass port to connect a hose out of the boiler to a floor drain (above water line - needs to be properly piped). With a healthy dose of 8-way in the boiler, any foaming and dirt that is created during steaming will push - or rather, blow out of the port. Water feeder will feed water as needed, and over a day of heating like this, you will 'blow out' dirt and oils. This however needs to be done on boilers that are properly piped so that you are not sucking the foam up the main, and should be supervised by a knowledgeable person.

I still think your cycle guard is the main culprit. If you change this to SafeGuard or McDonnel Miller PSE802 and skim the boiler properly, you might be quite ok with the piping you have. As others have mentioned, why the 'plumber' did what he did will be anyone's guess, unless you ask him. IIWM, I would insist it be piped to spec as per the installation manual.

NYCDave

Good news everyone! Plumber came in again yesterday and skimmed some more (possibly flushed boiler as well) and presto, like magic the water in the sight glass is moving just 1-2 inches now, the cycle-guard does not trip the boiler off, and the radiators are getting warm!! He said he would come again today to do some more skimming as well. Just in time too, as the low Friday night will be in the 20s!!!

Thanks so much for everybody's help on here!!! I can't emphasize how cool it is to have a resource like this, no amount go googling or searching would have helped me to understand this system.

We still have some issues, the electric damper is supposed to be closed when the boiler is off (I guess to prevent heat from drafting up the chimney when there is boiler exhaust?) but it stays open all the time. I'm still trying to convince him to tap and pipe the skim port, instead of using the T-junction he put in on the pressure valve port, we need to reorient the PRV, and in the long run either redo the piping or at least make a direct connection of the second main to the riser instead of T-ing off the first main.

I will also look into changing out the cycle guard (for a safe-guard I guess?). Some people mentioned this could void the warranty, so I have to check on that first. Also wondering if I should ditch the automatic water feeder... that thing is what got us into trouble with the old boiler, as I had no idea I was supposed to watch it, and by the time we realized anything was wrong, the boiler was rusted through... if we didn't have the auto-feeder, I guess the system would have stopped on low water, and then we would have had to diagnose what happened, and maybe could have prevented the failure... So happy the new system has not required any make up water at all so far!!!

And of course, I guess it sounds like it might be a good idea to skim the system again in a few weeks... Once we've gotten all the oil out of the new boiler, how often do people skim?

Thanks Again!

JUGHNE

If you locate that skim port under a knockout of the tin jacket, it is highly advised to get the plug loose sooner than later.
After steaming for some time the plug will get tougher or impossible to get out.
Also mentioned the pop off relief valve should be standing up with its male threads pointing down.
You do have the install book, it would show both items just discussed.

NYCDave

Thanks JUGHNE! Just to be clear, if I get the plug loose, I can't leave it in, I have to thread the port and put a pipe in, is that correct? Or can I get the plug loose and then just plug back up?

MilanD

NYCDave said:

Thanks JUGHNE! Just to be clear, if I get the plug loose, I can't leave it in, I have to thread the port and put a pipe in, is that correct? Or can I get the plug loose and then just plug back up?

If and when you get the plug loose, install a nipple of desired length, a valve, and another nipple with a cap, or skip a valve and just cap it. This will give you access point for skimming, chemicals (like 8-way or steamaster tablets, or any other array you can use to increase pH to 8.5+). The plug on the other hand, once is ceases in place, will be close to impossible to remove.

JUGHNE

Post a picture of the plug location if you find it.
The book might call it "blow off port" or such.
Should be just above the water line.

If there is a plug it will be threaded into the boiler.
You just find the nipple to fit in that port.
Plugs are a curse for the future.

NYCDave

It's port L in the attached schematic from the manual... It's size NPT-1 (as opposed to the PRV port, which is NPT-3/4. It's labeled as a Factory-Plugged Surface Blow Off port.

What exactly is a plug, and how does one remove it?

JUGHNE

Your screen shot of your boiler book seems well over anyone's head here. The Hilser theory concerning DNA would scare most installers away. (further proof that few installers read the book).
Try again please.

NYCDave

OOPS!!! sorry, wrong image... here it is!

NYCDave

Seems a factory plug is just a regular pipe plug... should have figured that out... So if I remove the plug to loosen it, and just put it back in (with teflon tape? pipe dope? nothing?), will it still be impossible to remove next year?

MilanD

NYCDave said:

Seems a factory plug is just a regular pipe plug... should have figured that out... So if I remove the plug to loosen it, and just put it back in (with teflon tape? pipe dope? nothing?), will it still be impossible to remove next year?

Yes. Do not reinsert the plug. You will get a piece of pipe in order to skim (or the water will flow down the boiler section and on the floor which is what you don't want). Leave the pipe in there after you are done skimming, and just install a cap on it.

JUGHNE

First locate the knock out circle in the blue tin of the jacket, if you tap on the outer circumference of the inner circle with punch/screwdriver and hammer. You will see it is held in place by only 2 points of the tin and also mainly paint.
Wiggle and twist it out, behind the insulation should be the pipe plug. Probably square head type. Much easier to remove before the blue jacket is installed.
It will be recessed behind the jacket and tough to remove without a proper socket. Probably pretty tight right from the factory.
Does the book show a skim port installed there?
If so and installer was to install boiler to factory specs, he owes you that.
If they don't specify it then he can say "so there".
But the fact that he cobbled a skim port incorrectly on the PRV opening concludes that he is aware of the necessity of such.
He may have forgot to remove the plug before installing the jacket, or it was tight and little effort was made for removal.
It would have cost him less in material to simply install a 1" X 6" black nipple and cap than mess with the PRV port that he did.

In any event if you or he somehow get the plug out, do not put it back. Install the nipple/cap.

Fred

@NYCDave , Glad he skimmed it and it helped! Do remove that plug and insert a short nipple, maybe 3 inches or so and either put a cap on the open end of it or buy a ball valve to put on there. If my memory serves me right, the Burnham book is weong about that tapping/plug being 1 inch. I believe you will find it to be an inch and a quarter. Keep us posted!

NYCDave

Ok, thanks again guys! Sounds like a socket wrench might be the way to go. Is there a standard size socket for these things by any chance? should I use pipe dope? Any specific brand/type?

Kahooli

I like blue monster ptfe tape for small thread pitch pipe

JUGHNE

First post a picture of the plug before anything else.
Double back tape a quarter on the jacket next to the plug for size reference.....as Fred said it may be 1 1/4" plug.

NYCDave

Oh, I almost forgot... Obviously the boiler has to be off for this. Does it have to be cold? Do I have to put out the pilot light?

Fred

Just cool/warm to touch and turn the power switch to off so that it doesn't fire while you have the plug out. That plug is above the water line of the boiler so you don't need to drain the boiler at all.
Also, to your earlier question, once you get the boiler skimmed and the water stable with this new installation, the only time you will likely need to skim it, in the future, will be when any new piping/repairs are made that introduces new oils into the system. You won't use that skim port much, after the initial installation but it is critical when you do need it!

JUGHNE

If that is a square head plug, a 8 point impact socket (not common) that fits the plug exactly, is highly recommended.
The common socket may seem to fit but may only knock the corners off of the plug. Once the plug corners are rounded off then may be very difficult to remove with a socket.

I would apply some spray such as PB blaster and let it soak and apply again. A little tapping on the face of the plug with small hammer might help also.

NYCDave

Ok, thanks JUGHNE! I will probably try to find a matching square socket if I can... Any concerns regarding how much force I can exert? This is the cast iron body of the boiler I am torquing against, correct? Do I have to worry about it moving or straining/cracking or anything?

JUGHNE

Do you have it exposed yet?

NYCDave

No, this all has to happen at night or on the weekend... now that we are getting heat, it's not a big rush so I will want to take it slow and careful... first knock out the insert in the jacket, size the plug, find the right socket... but good to know how hard I can torque on this once I get a chance to try it!

Fred

It's going to take a good amount of torque to get that plug out but as Jughne said spay it with some PB Blaster once you get the knockout off and spray it for a couple days to let it penetrate into the threads as much as possible. That will help some. The longer you wait and the more heating cycles it goes through, the tougher it will be to get the plug out. You won't crack the cast iron. You may even have to take that cabinet panel off to get a good hold on the plug head.