gas stove on inside wall

D107

An elderly family member may be moving into an apt, newly renovated, everything looks good, but the gas stove is on inside wall--as of now no range hood. Will ask them to put in microwave with range hood underneath, but location means it's kind of impossible to properly vent this, so she'll have to crack a window when she cooks. At least a range hood--with no vent--will collect the grease and smoke etc. Should this situation be a concern?

Jamie Hall

Shouldn't be. I'm not particularly in favour of unvented gas heating appliances, but a gas stove shouldn't be a problem. Keep it maintained properly...

Tim McElwain

What floor is the apartment on? Has this renovated apt been inspected? Some jurisdictions require a range hood with it ventilated to outdoors or through and attic to outdoors.

Make sure there is a smoke detector and a carbon monoxide detector. Ranges you must understand can be 75,000 to 80,000 BTU,s depending on inputs to ovens and top burners.

NY_Rob

The stovetop burners aren't as much of a concern as the oven because they typically aren't left on for hours at a time like the oven would be.

If they intend to use the oven often- you can check it with a combustion analyzer and adjust the oven burner air gate for lower CO emissions. From what I've read most manufactures just set the air gate to midway and they ship em out like that. I checked our one year old oven with my combustion analyzer- it was putting out 150 PPM CO when firing, by adjusting the air gate I got it down to slightly under 50 PPM CO.

If they ever intend to use the slef-cleaning option.. make sure they do it during the time of year when they can open several/all the windows in the apartment for the full 2-3hrs it takes to self-clean.

It took placing a CO meter (not a dumb CO alarm) with a display in the kitchen to convince my wife to crack a couple of windows when using our unvented oven... but she does it now without even thinking about it. She was using the oven for a couple of hours today... the CO never went above 5 PPM in the kitchen because she opened opposing windows.

D107

Thanks for all the good answers. It's a second floor unit; can't say it's been inspected. I'll probably look for a good gas tech (Long Island) and have him adjust the air gate and make sure the unit is kept clean.

Tim McElwain

Not to many people know how to properly set up and adjust an oven. In one of my manuals we cover that in a bout 4 and 1/2 pages. I am sure Steamhead remembers his training with me on ovens.

Steamhead

Yes I do, and I use it frequently. Ovens can be the worst CO sources in a typical house.

David0107, have someone come and test that stove with a digital analyzer. That's the only way you'll know for sure it's running properly.

ratio

@Tim McElwain, are there online resources for adjusting ovens you recommend?

Tim McElwain

No online sources that I know of. I have watched so called factory repair people work on gas ranges and none of them ever conducted a combustion analysis, nor did they really know how to make the oven safe. All they knew was how to get it to work.

If you e-mail me at gastc@cox.net and give me your postal mailing address I will send you a copy of my procedure for FREE!

jumper

Adjusting ovens? Won't happen. And if it does will it stay adjusted? Even those expensive so-called commercial models have cheapo oven burners. Customers don't see those. Tight residences must have powered ventilation (ERVs)

j a_2

What does the owners manul say?

Steamhead

jumper said:

Adjusting ovens? Won't happen.

If we install or work on one, it gets tested, and adjusted if needed.

jumper said:

And if it does will it stay adjusted?

That remains to be seen, but the one in my house has stayed in adjustment for over a decade.

D107

Enjoying the discussion here. FYI tenant decided not to rent that apartment, but fyi their policy was not to allow installation of rangehoods --especially since venting outside was not an option--but since there was no makeup air method, they felt risk to other dwellings for negative air pressure. So their ultimate fall back was to have a big openable kitchen window so residents could have some makeup air, but no venting outside---and of course this setup would require more cleaning to remove grease from cooking, etc. It was a very old building and they may have felt their venting options limited, OR it was an issue of $$.

Tim McElwain

@David107 In over 50 years of servicing gas equipment and also as an instructor for a gas utility and somewhat of an expert on codes who ever determined how this system was going to work does not know what they are doing. Carbon monoxide does not care if the window is open or not. Keeping oven clean is just one of many causes of CO from ovens there are many more.

D107

Thanks for that crucial point and others Tim. I've edited my oversimplified statement.

captainco

In case you missed the story a Pennsylvania family of a 77 year old lady was awarded $868,000 initially for a wrongful CO death. The lady used her oven to dry her clothes with the oven door open. It was determined the landlord did not provide enough ventilation for her to do this. This was a housing authority building and because it was a state agency the award was limited to $250,000. If you use an oven with the door open I am not sure there is a way to provide enough ventilation. Ovens may make 50ppm with the door closed but with the door open they can make thousands of ppm.

jumper

Is there a Pennsylvania building code specifying ventilation for continuously operating open door oven? If not,is the judge a crook? Is defending lawyer in on the action?

captainco

The jury made the ruling. But how bad was the lawyer and expert witness for screwing this one up? Poor lady, but you can't fix stupid but I guess you have to pay for it.

I guess we could all turn our ovens on self-cleaning and get poisoned and sue somebody. But please don't die!!

Tim McElwain

By the way an Electric Range on Self Cleaning Mode can make high levels of CO.

Steamhead

captainco said:

Ovens may make 50ppm with the door closed but with the door open they can make thousands of ppm.

How come? Seems to me that since the actual combustion takes place below the oven floor, as long as the burner is in tune it shouldn't matter whether the door is open. What am I missing here?

ratio

The oven is the flue.

captainco

I was hoping for this question. If one checks the design an operation of an gas oven they will see the burner burns directly against a spreader plate. Initially when the oven starts, this spreader plate is cold and the CO spikes but as the spreader plate heats up over 1100 degrees the CO drops rapidly and burns off to a point, hopefully below 50 ppm.

With the oven door open this plate never get to 1100 degrees and therefore high levels of CO are produced because of this impingement.

Basically when we are tuning an oven, whether opening up the air shutter or adjusting gas pressure, we are changing the way the flame hits the spreader plate. Too much impingement and we quench the flame and get poor mixing of fuel and air , too little we don't get the spreader plate hot enough.

Some of the old inshot replacement burners had flame spreader plates that were adjustable. If the plate was too close to the flame we had high CO and the same if it was too far away.

Impingement can be something that is part of the design or it is something that doesn't belong. NOX rods are one of those things that really don't belong (except in California because they don't want to make any laughing gas!) but usually make elevated CO because of impingement.

Impingement: Flame making contact with some surface.

jumper

I've been puzzling over oven design for decades. For example why not add a thermostat to broiler burner?

j a_2

Don't all appliances come with an owners manual...?

Tim McElwain

@jumper Broiling is typically not done relative to temperature of the space but temperature of the product being broiled. It is also related to time and temperature as to the doness of the product. A thermostatic control could there fore shut the system down before the product is properly cooked.

Tim McElwain

@ja Yes but who can ever find it. Some manuals on gas ranges are very god others are very lacking in any good information.

ChrisJ

I noticed the spreader plate in our oven when I pulled the bottom cover off a while back. All I thought was "interesting".

Regarding broilers and thermostats, my main complaint about broilers is 9 out of 10 of them don't run near hot enough in my opinion. Broiling is about high direct temperatures, so as Tim said, no need to regulate it. Just wish they ran hotter. I do 99% of my cooking outside on a natural gas Weber. This includes roast beef, turkey, chicken, cookies etc. While it's not quite as even as a decent oven for baking things like cookies, it's good enough when done right. Basically, I use my gas grill as an oven.

And no matter how much CO it produces, it's not in my house so it's a win win.

And for when we do use the stove or oven, I have a 200 - 440 CFM variable hood over the stove, vented outside of course. I don't know if it actually moves 440 CFM, but it moves enough that even on self clean we don't have to open any windows, 100% of the smoke and smell leave via that hood.

I always insist that fan is on, at least on low if a burner is lit. I realize a 7,000-10,000 btu/h burner doesn't produce much, but I don't need to be breathing it.

D107

The comment about outdoor cooking made me wonder, whether charcoal or gas, if it's a calm day outside with no breeze and one is standing close to the grill, is there a 'CO zone' within a certain distance, even though it may much less than the indoor danger?

ChrisJ

David107 said:

The comment about outdoor cooking made me wonder, whether charcoal or gas, if it's a calm day outside with no breeze and one is standing close to the grill, is there a 'CO zone' within a certain distance, even though it may much less than the indoor danger?

I don't know, I try not to breath the fumes. I doubt if you're off to the side CO could be very high, I'd expect with charcoal you'd get that eye burning whiff. Like with anything though, try to keep away from the heat and fumes and you should be fine.


I do a lot of grilling, all year, though a lot of my "grilled" foods wouldn't be considered BBQ.


Cooking dinner during a storm, we had 28" of fresh snow. Speaking of CO, notice I cleared the snow from under the grill, as well as unblocked the air intakes on the sides. That burner wants plenty of air.




I do quite a bit of charcoal as well, mainly lump charcoal.



Bacon. Much easier, faster, and cleaner than cooking it inside.

captainco

Actually I have several CO stories from the past where persons have been grilling outdoors on their decks or patios and people indoors ended up poisoned. In one case a wife a two children were unconscious on the floor. Charcoal grilles put out quite a bit more CO than gas grilles especially when they are cooling down.

I lent a CO analyzer to a gas grille manufacturers years ago that was trying to market coin operated gas grilles for parks. They had to meet an AGA standard but I wasn't sure if it was the 800 ppm "Air Free" that gas ovens are allowed. Outdoors I am not sure how you would get any "Air Free" sample that made any sense.

Just for a bit of additional info. If you keep monitoring a gas oven as it cycles on and off with temperature you will notice the CO rises each time it comes back on, but not as high as before because the spreader plate is already partially heated.

jumper

Do restaurant griddles also use flame spreaders? Did domestic stoves always use them? Or are spreaders a method to economize on the metal in bottom of oven?

ChrisJ

captainco said:

Actually I have several CO stories from the past where persons have been grilling outdoors on their decks or patios and people indoors ended up poisoned. In one case a wife a two children were unconscious on the floor. Charcoal grilles put out quite a bit more CO than gas grilles especially when they are cooling down.

I lent a CO analyzer to a gas grille manufacturers years ago that was trying to market coin operated gas grilles for parks. They had to meet an AGA standard but I wasn't sure if it was the 800 ppm "Air Free" that gas ovens are allowed. Outdoors I am not sure how you would get any "Air Free" sample that made any sense.

Just for a bit of additional info. If you keep monitoring a gas oven as it cycles on and off with temperature you will notice the CO rises each time it comes back on, but not as high as before because the spreader plate is already partially heated.

I can't stand when I see grills on decks, or anywhere near a house, and I see it a lot.

A grill shouldn't be anywhere near combustible material in my opinion, and certainly not sitting on a wood deck connected to a house. Even worse is when I see them on a wood deck, under a roof!

My gas one is about 2 or 3 feet from a wood fence, that's about as close as I'll get.


Charcoal, I keep fairly far from the house just because of the smell.

I also keep a 10LB dry chem extinguisher close by because you just never know.

captainco

Well you got me on that one. Years ago I did have a gas grill on my wood deck but the farthest distance. At least I knew not to use it in the garage.:)

ChrisJ

captainco said:

Well you got me on that one. Years ago I did have a gas grill on my wood deck but the farthest distance. At least I knew not to use it in the garage.:)

I've heard of people using a charcoal grill in their living room for heat.

To an extent, I think @Steamhead is wrong, you can fix stupid and nature often does. Using a grill to heat your home will almost definitely cure stupid, permanently.

captainco

Sometimes gene pool correction is a wonderful thing!

Tim McElwain

@chrisj I noticed the spreader plate in our oven when I pulled the bottom cover off a while back. All I thought was "interesting".

Regarding broilers and thermostats, my main complaint about broilers is 9 out of 10 of them don't run near hot enough in my opinion. Broiling is about high direct temperatures, so as Tim said, no need to regulate it. Just wish they ran hotter. I do 99% of my cooking outside on a natural gas Weber. This includes roast beef, turkey, chicken, cookies etc. While it's not quite as even as a decent oven for baking things like cookies, it's good enough when done right. Basically, I use my gas grill as an oven.

And no matter how much CO it produces, it's not in my house so it's a win win.

And for when we do use the stove or oven, I have a 200 - 440 CFM variable hood over the stove, vented outside of course. I don't know if it actually moves 440 CFM, but it moves enough that even on self clean we don't have to open any windows, 100% of the smoke and smell leave via that hood.

I always insist that fan is on, at least on low if a burner is lit. I realize a 7,000-10,000 btu/h burner doesn't produce much, but I don't need to be breathing it.

It is important to remember as to the broiler even though it is not temperature regulated it does have a built into the oven control safe shut down temp of 625 degrees F.

Tim McElwain

What is the problem when you have no exhaust system when using a gas range? It comes down to this even with the top burners operating you have from 40,000 BTU's up to sometimes almost 50,000 depending on the size of the burners. That by the way is just on domestic gas ranges. Some small commercial ranges used in homes today have more than that and some have six burners. The top burners will make high levels of CO when first turned on due to cold skillet and and pan surfaces. Flames hitting cool surfaces get cooled and have higher levels of CO. This should drop down once implements are heated.

When you add the oven to the mix then anywhere from 20,000 to 25,000 BTU's depending the size of the range. So four top burners running and the oven (say on Thanksgiving) no fan you are dumping a lot of product into the kitchen if there is no exhaust fan. Then the air gets cross contaminated with Carbon Dioxide CO2 (one of the products of combustion) which is a quenching agent and now your fresh air supply for the burners is contaminated and the potential for high CO comes into place.

I have a vent hood on my cooking stove and even with it operating and all my burners on my low - level CO detector(CO-Experts version) (it alarms at 9 PPM immediately), sometimes It will go off and it is 25 feet away in the bedroom.

All of this plus the possibility of the oven not being adjusted correctly. I was a service man for a gas utility for many years. We always did a start and check on brand new gas ranges. It was not unusual to find them out of adjustment and making high levels of CO right from the factory.

We also on every service call checked all fossil fuel burning equipment for CO.

If you do not test you do not know.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

To an extent, I think @Steamhead is wrong, you can fix stupid and nature often does. Using a grill to heat your home will almost definitely cure stupid, permanently.

That's not "fixing" stupid, it's "eliminating" stupid