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Worlds smallest header?

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1 1/4" is big enough for this right? Smh
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
SWEI

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
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    You see a header there do ya? :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    I find calculating the steam velocity can be entertaining at times http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/steam-velocity-through-piping.html

    After derating for altitude, the 211A I posted a few weeks back would hit 145 FPS through 2" Sch.40 at 0.5 PSI.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
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    SWEI said:

    I find calculating the steam velocity can be entertaining at times http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/steam-velocity-through-piping.html

    After derating for altitude, the 211A I posted a few weeks back would hit 145 FPS through 2" Sch.40 at 0.5 PSI.

    What I don't understand about steam velocity ratings is they never seem to agree with how long it takes steam to hit my main vents?

    The fastest time on my long 2" 29' main is about 60 seconds. Shouldn't it be more like 2 seconds?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    The steam is collapsing as it approaches your vents Chris. If the pipe was already at 212 degrees at the scene entered it it would vent faster. The same velocity charts are based off of a system that is already up to temperature at the speed that travels to the Steam that is being used
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
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    The steam is collapsing as it approaches your vents Chris. If the pipe was already at 212 degrees at the scene entered it it would vent faster. The same velocity charts are based off of a system that is already up to temperature at the speed that travels to the Steam that is being used

    How much could the main have cooled off in 5 minutes with 1" insulation?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Charlie from wmass
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    It would have to be below 140 degrees or your vents will not open to allow air in.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
    edited June 2016
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    It would have to be below 140 degrees or your vents will not open to allow air in.

    Not true.
    My vents are located in a cold crawlspace and they are not insulated, nor is the 3/4" nipple connected to them. This nipple drops below 180F in about 4 minutes.

    The insulated steam pipe is without a doubt still above 180F in 5 minutes.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    I suggest you insulate the nipple. Or even better relocate the vent to a warmer area so it takes longer to cool.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
    edited June 2016
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    I suggest you insulate the nipple. Or even better relocate the vent to a warmer area so it takes longer to cool.

    What benefit would this give other than making the system struggle trying to push air out?

    All of the radiator vents will still be wide open.

    In fact, I'm betting this would cause all sorts of balancing problems. Half the main full of air, half not, main vents still shut etc.

    I rely on that nipple to cool to reset the Ecosteam, especially when it's below zero out and I'm running 3 CPH. I have around 5 to 6 minutes in between cycles.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    If the vent is warm and close what air would be stuck?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
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    If the vent is warm and close what air would be stuck?

    The 10 wide open radiator vents will let air in.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,904
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    ChrisJ said:

    You see a header there do ya? :)

    That installer was a "good hot-water man" :# . And yes, you have me beat- smallest one I've seen was 1-1/2".
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,452
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    That problem of the apparent velocity of steam in a main being much less that the calculated velocity is kind of subtle. However, until the boundary layer of steam against the pipe reaches 212 (at "normal" atmospheric -- but close enough) steam simply will not go significantly farther -- it will, quite happily condense. If the pipe is nice and warm -- your 180, @ChrisJ , for instance, that will happen fairly quickly -- but not instantly. So the bottom line is that the steam front in the pipe will move only as fast as the steam will heat the pipe.

    Oddly, the back pressure from a vent won't affect this all that much -- assuming the vents are at least reasonable. Which debate I have no intention of reopening...

    Saturated steam is funny stuff.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    Has anyone probed a steam system and measured 212°?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
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    jumper said:

    Has anyone probed a steam system and measured 212°?

    Not sure I understand your question?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    ChrisJ said:

    jumper said:

    Has anyone probed a steam system and measured 212°?

    Not sure I understand your question?
    I figure that at 0 psig it's cooler than 212° unless there's no air in system. Because the partial pressure of the water vapor is less than 0 psig.

  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    New boiler new Header
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    Paul S_3ChrisJSWEIZman
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Looking good!
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    Thanks. Definitely better than what they had.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,261
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    Great job!! @Charlie from wmass
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    ASMMECHANICALCORP@GMAIL.COM
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • New England SteamWorks
    New England SteamWorks Member Posts: 1,520
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    Charlie saves another one. Nice job!
    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
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    That's some really thick insulation for those small pipes. lol.

    Looking good Charlie.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,788
    edited June 2016
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    jumper said:

    ChrisJ said:

    jumper said:

    Has anyone probed a steam system and measured 212°?

    Not sure I understand your question?
    I figure that at 0 psig it's cooler than 212° unless there's no air in system. Because the partial pressure of the water vapor is less than 0 psig.

    0 PSIG is typically 14.7 PSIA, which means a boiling point of 212F at sealevel. Above sealevel, this temperature should gradually drop as you get higher and higher.

    At 2000 feet it's 13.7 PSIA so a boiling point around 210F.
    At 5000 feet it's 12.2 PSIA so a boiling point of about 202F.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    Boil water in an open pot. Stick a thermometer into the steam –not the water– and see if you get 212°.
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,654
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    If you can see it, it's by definition not steam. It's already condensed. Use a teapot, & put the thermometer in the "empty" area between the spout & the cloud. That outta be a lot closer to 212, depending on altitude/barometric pressure.
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    Spout increases velocity to sweep away air. My point is that when there's air in a steam heating system the gases are less than 212° at 0 psig because part of the pressure is contributed by the air. So the water vapor pressure is less than 0 psig. Or am I missing something?
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    Steam displaces air. They do not blend due to difference in densities.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating