Latest round of air vent testing- thank you Barnes & Jones!

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Wonder if upside down would work? Female threads pointing up.

I would be concerned about water laying around the diaphragm and perhaps causing it to close late and open early.

Sailah

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Wonder if upside down would work? Female threads pointing up.

Can't use upside down for reasons explained. Let me know if you are having troubles with the vent. Often the seating surface and plug have to mate with each other a few times to bed in. The machined surfaces are just valves and benefit from some use.

Sailah

We were discussing this in house and talked about adding in a silicone O ring like we do on our vacuum breakers. It would create a 100% positive air tight seal. It's not something we do on traps but the lower pressure venting of this trap/vent is new to us.

We would machine the oring into the plug, as it seals, even at very low pressure would create positive seal on trap body.

I think this would completely eliminate the spitting of drops as I don't think you guys have enough pressure in single pipe to create a hard close like the 2 pipe guys.

This disc would be completely retrofittable to the traps out there so I could send them to people that already bought them. It's a simple swap.

I would most likely need a few weeks to machine those plugs and test. My apologies for the guinea pig testing but I just want to have the best product out there.

gerry gill

Hi Peter- the vents would need to close with essentially no pressure at all as that is what is present when the steam first is being generated. The heat alone must be capable of making it close..shouldn't really be a problem but i like the o-ring idea.

Sailah

The heat alone will flash the condensate in the diaphragm and make it close but the o ring will make it completely tight. I just wanted to eliminate any drips. Not a big deal to implement, I already designed the o ring plug just need to make it.

Once I do I'll send out the new discs to anyone who has bought the vent.

Fred

Once I do I'll send out the new discs to anyone who has bought the vent.
That will be great! I'll wait for those before I mount the vents. This heating season is over anyway. Thanks!

Sailah

Ok here's the update. We debated just machining an O-Ring groove into the plug but that proved more difficult to align in the vent body. So I machined an O-Ring groove into the actual body and eliminated the brass seating surface. The vent now seals without any leaking, drips and stays sealed.

we tested this new design against the one that many of you had bought and the difference is noticeable at 6PSIG. At low pressure this should be almost unnoticeable but it is now a gasket seal.

I think the best solution is for me to make up a bunch of these new vents and send them to anyone who bought them. I'll enclose a UPS return label for you to send the obsolete vents back. I should have all your shipping info and quantities from Amazon and will ship as soon as I can.

I apologize if anyone is put out by this and appreciate your understanding.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWoAReeOutg

BobC

I think I speak for all of us when i say we appreciate what you and your company do for us. Speaking for myself I would have no problem paying for the shipping to do this, just let me know.

I'd also like to say these could replace a lot of Gorton #2's at a much better price point and THEY ARE REPAIRABLE!

Bob

Sailah

Thanks for the nice words Bob. Shipping is on me. My head machinist was not pleased when I dropped this project on him.

Although to be fair, I did all the prototype machining on the lathe, ground the tool for the trepan operation, tested etc. He just has to repeat it 100 times lol.

ChrisJ

Fred

Thanks @Sailah ! I'm with Bob, If you'd like us to pay shipping, I'm more than will to do that. I'm looking forward to next heating season!

KC_Jones

Something else to consider with these is location. Given the original function of these could we mount these right at the end of the main without worrying (as we do with normal vents) about the steam "beating them up"? We always talk about moving the vents away from the steam isolate them etc., but with this couldn't I just plug it right into the tee at the end of my main and forget about it? That would save piping and fitting costs and also save even more space. Just a thought that occurred to me. What do you say @Sailah ? Also I have the test one that you sent me still, but haven't had a chance to reinstall it for more testing. I am guessing I should just send that back to you now? Let me know (here or in PM) what to do. I am thinking I might trade out my Gortons for a couple of these no matter what.

Sailah

ChrisJ said:

Haha my first meme, I'm so pleased I've finally arrived.

Fred said:

Thanks @Sailah ! I'm with Bob, If you'd like us to pay shipping, I'm more than will to do that. I'm looking forward to next heating season!

Thanks Fred. Nope shipping is on me but thanks for offering.

KC_Jones said:

Something else to consider with these is location. Given the original function of these could we mount these right at the end of the main without worrying (as we do with normal vents) about the steam "beating them up"? We always talk about moving the vents away from the steam isolate them etc., but with this couldn't I just plug it right into the tee at the end of my main and forget about it? That would save piping and fitting costs and also save even more space. Just a thought that occurred to me. What do you say @Sailah ? Also I have the test one that you sent me still, but haven't had a chance to reinstall it for more testing. I am guessing I should just send that back to you now? Let me know (here or in PM) what to do. I am thinking I might trade out my Gortons for a couple of these no matter what.

KC,

This is essentially a trap and as such should be far more resistant to water hammer. But I can't see that being an issue in single pipe. I don't think you need to baby these at all. I'd just mount it high enough so that it doesn't waterlog.

Any of the water you saw in my video is only because I have a big u shaped dip in my piping. No water should get to your vent in normal operation.

Regarding the prototype, that's now a retired version. No sense sending it back. In fact take the cover off and now you have a rebuild kit if/when you ever need one.

In case I ever forget to mention this, the rebuild kit is simply a Mepco 3C disc (Mepco PN# C5942). It's screwed into the cover and secured by 2 drops of red loctite. And the O-Ring should it ever need to be replaced is a silicone -115 oring, these Buna N have a temp rating of 250, the silicone I use is 400 degrees F

http://www.amazon.com/115-Buna-N-O-Ring-Durometer-Black/dp/B000FMWOQQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1462995526&sr=1-1&keywords=115+o+ring

SWEI

Would http://www.mcmaster.com/#9396k28/=12d8udr fit?

Sailah

Yes, that's exactly the part I'm using. I didn't have silicone O rings of that size here but I did have Buna A so I used that to mock up the groove. But the McMaster part is what I am using for the temp rating.

gerry gill

You have put in a serious amount of work into these Peter, and it speaks huge for both you and Barnes & Jones. I think you are developing quite a loyal following and you deserve praise. Thank you for making another advancement for our industry that will also make us better in the field!

Double D

@gerry gill I know you said the Big Mouth vents more than a Gorton 2 but will you be testing to give a figure as to how much more it vents?

ChrisJ

Double D said:

@gerry gill I know you said the Big Mouth vents more than a Gorton 2 but will you be testing to give a figure as to how much more it vents?

Gerry attached the info in a PDF at the beginning of this thread along with data for many other vents he recently tested.

But for easy reference here's a snip.

Double D

Thank you @ChrisJ .This tends to happen when the threads get so big.

ChrisJ

Double D said:

Thank you @ChrisJ .This tends to happen when the threads get so big.

I've also yet to figure out how to open a PDF on my phone.

SWEI

Is the O-ring likely to change any of the performance numbers?

gerry gill

I will retest once i get a replacement

Sailah

There should be zero effect from the O ring in terms of venting performance.

In fact I was standing at the lathe today making the prototype for the machinist to follow. As you all know the orifice is 5/8".

Well I custom ground a trepan tool that allows you to cut the o ring groove while turning and that worked great. So I'm looking around the shop for 39/64" drill and 5/8" reamer to finish the hole as they aren't even close to that big in the standard trap body.

Well I got sick of looking through mismatched drill indexes and said _____ it. I grabbed a carbide boring bar and took a skim cut to measure. The o ring was installed while spinning I might add so I had a visual reference. I cut to 5/8".

And then I thought hmmm, still a little more meat left before I hit the o ring, maybe I should go a little bit bigger...

5/8" is 0.625". I think I stopped at 0.640". So when you are sitting around in your shorts next winter lets just keep the secret to ourselves that the orifice is now 0.640" and it's all because I was too lazy to hunt down the right drill bit.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Fred

Excellent!

BobC

With mains venting, bigger is usually better.

Bob

KC_Jones

Please notify us when these are in stock with Amazon again, I suspect you will have another run on them. lol

Sailah

KC_Jones said:

Please notify us when these are in stock with Amazon again, I suspect you will have another run on them. lol

LOL. I gave 100 of the bodies to the machinist this morning. He couldn't hold the hex in the CNC so I said I'll do them on the manual lathe myself.

I just came into my office to eat lunch, covered in brass chips to read this.

I got 51 done so far so I'll finish off the other 49. Will try and ship today if not tomorrow. First priority to those that already bought and then what I have left I will ship to Amazon.

Thanks for all your help and support.

Back to making brass chips...

Sailah

Ok so here's where I am at.

I machined 50 of the bodies for O-rings. They seal up perfectly under steam. Our steam testing rack has a cold water injection pump so we can rapidly cool down the traps after testing. When I blasted cold water through the Big Mouth, it dislodged the O ring which then caught in the seat and the vent blew by.

So I bought some polypaks which are O ring backed seals like a square o ring. I machined a body for one of these and tested. It sealed up perfectly but again when I blasted water through it, dislodged the oring from the seal. Same problem.

In single pipe would that testing scenario ever happen in your systems? Water blasting through the vent? Not water gently filling it or getting to it, but a full throttle open faucet type event?

I feel like I'm worrying unnecessarily about the O ring because what I'm subjecting the vent to would never happen in real life. But that's why I'm asking the question.

So as it stands here are the options we have.

We can leave the Big Mouth as delivered with a brass to brass seal. I see the only downside as it might leak a drop or 2 but I can't see this being a big deal, maybe it is? It would certainly be the most reliable version.

I can supply it with a silicone O ring. This would eliminate the 1 or 2 drips because of the positive seal. But retaining the O ring in the groove under severe water turbulence has proven troublesome. I'd like your feedback if this is even an issue. I feel this is the best version but if you guys get a lot of water hammer, I'm not going forward with it as once the oring gets moved it is totally non functional.

I am trying square and X profile O rings today with the hope that they are retained better.

From left to right. Silicone O ring, 5/8" ID polypack, 3/4" ID Polypak



The polypak after I knocked it loose with water.

ChrisJ

I highly doubt that would ever happen on a properly running system.

However, how about putting a dab of black RTV (or any RTV or silicone adhesive) in the groove and setting the O ring down in it? That'd likely hold it in place and yet still be removable if need be.

It would also work on your other seal.

Are you testing at 1 to 2 PSI? if you're doing 6 or more PSI it's completely inapplicable to single pipe applications, or in my opinion, even 2 pipe. Do you think a Gorton 2 is Mil-spec or something?

Remember, Titanic's center prop turbine input ran at 9 PSIA with an output of 1 PISA so a differential of 8 PSI and produced 10,000 HP. We don't need an 8 PSI differential to heat a building.

Paul48

Could it be dislodged in shipping? Silicone adhesive?

Double D

I would prefer a couple drops of water to totally non functional. At worst a system may have lazy returns and water may stack in the return up to the vents but there won't be or shouldn't be full city pressure.

Sailah

The Oring groove is machined oversized by 0.020" so the O ring is a slight stretch to fit and it is snug. It would never come out under any circumstance other than what I described. In fact while writing this post I took the vent with the O ring and slammed it with O ring down on my desk repeatedly enough to make my coffee cup jump. Didn't move an iota. I think the blast of water I send through the vent is hydraulicking the O ring out.

Good points on the RTV. I have a tube of Loctite Black Silicone and just made one up. Takes 24 hours to cure. I think it will also fill the gap so water can't get behind it.

So, no O ring can't come out during shipping not a chance.

And I'm also hearing that a big slug of water would never make it into the vent during normal operation?

Thanks Gents

Paul48

Peter..............You're testing as 2-pipe! A main vent is never going to see a flow of water through it, like that.

Sailah

Double D said:

I would prefer a couple drops of water to totally non functional. At worst a system may have lazy returns and water may stack in the return up to the vents but there won't be or shouldn't be full city pressure.

That's what my preference is too. A couple drops of water on a basement floor is no big deal. Hell my basement (1815) is dirt anyways.

The brass to brass seal gets better over time as the parts mate with each other. We don't worry about it in a trap as there is a drain.

By making the vent airtight, I've eliminated the potential for a drip, but I've now built in a fail mechanism, that while remote, in my opinion doesn't offset the gains.

But I want the opinion of you guys since you're the customer.

My rack is testing at 6PSI and the vent seals with authority. I run 50PSI of water through the testing rack to cool traps.

I'll shoot a video of it and it should show how it seals

ChrisJ

Sailah said:

Double D said:

I would prefer a couple drops of water to totally non functional. At worst a system may have lazy returns and water may stack in the return up to the vents but there won't be or shouldn't be full city pressure.

That's what my preference is too. A couple drops of water on a basement floor is no big deal. Hell my basement (1815) is dirt anyways.

The brass to brass seal gets better over time as the parts mate with each other. We don't worry about it in a trap as there is a drain.

By making the vent airtight, I've eliminated the potential for a drip, but I've now built in a fail mechanism, that while remote, in my opinion doesn't offset the gains.

But I want the opinion of you guys since you're the customer.

My rack is testing at 6PSI and the vent seals with authority. I run 50PSI of water through the testing rack to cool traps.

I'll shoot a video of it and it should show how it seals

In my opinion,
This is kind of like testing a truck rated for 2000 lbs by dropping 10,000 pounds into the back from 50 feet up.

Some RTV would probably seal the deal (pun intended) but I bet they would work without it. 1 to 2 PSI tops and little to no water under normal conditions.

Sailah

Paul48 said:

Peter..............You're testing as 2-pipe!

Hey, that's what we do around here!! lol

KC_Jones

From what I saw on the limited testing I did of the first generation I would prefer the o-ring seal over the brass to brass seal. On mine I was seeing what I consider a fair amount of steam passing through with the brass to brass seal. If someone sees water blowing by like your test (on a one pipe vent application) they have MUCH bigger problems to worry about than an o-ring. I will put it this way, if you use the o-ring I would buy it, without it i doubt I buy one....just to put it bluntly.

Paul48

@KC_Jones

There may be information that @Sailah could use from your testing. If no one else witnessed what you saw, what is different about your application. You may have an application that might prove problematic, and he needs to know that.

gerry gill

I'm leaning toward the oring as no water should ever be there.

KC_Jones

Paul48 said:

@KC_Jones

There may be information that @Sailah could use from your testing. If no one else witnessed what you saw, what is different about your application. You may have an application that might prove problematic, and he needs to know that.

I have been in contact with him privately about this and sent him videos. I had one of the pre production test units.