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Latest round of air vent testing- thank you Barnes & Jones!

gerry gill
gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
Hi Everyone- the latest round of testing air vents is done with some great results.

Peter from Barnes & Jones and Hatterasguy, and the Steam Whisperer had sent me new product to test. The results are in the attached pdf.

I'm very impressed with the Barnes & Jones big mouth 2E vent trap. I think it may have serious potential. Hatterasguy is going to conduct some live testing on that one. It blows away a Gorton #2 in capacity.

I'm personally impressed with the sterilizer vent trap that Peter modified into a main vent. I already know thats a great idea as i've way to many times, had to cut into basement plaster ceilings to fit the Gorton #2 in place. This thing is only 3 1/2'' long including what goes into the pipe! It also vents more than a Gorton 2.

For those that don't have the gorton data in front of them, the Gorton #2 data is

at 1 ounce it vents 1.1 cfm
at 2 ounces it vents 1.75 cfm
at 3 ounces it vents 2.2 cfm

Peter, question for you- if we want to order some of these vents, how does one go about it?

also Peter- my guys are asking when B&J will make radiator vents
gwgillplumbingandheating.com
Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

Paul S_3SWEISailahAnswerman
«1345

Comments

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,518
    Thanks @gerry gill . The next time I need to replace my main vents, I will most likely replace them with the big mouth. Hopefully Peter will put some into production.
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Thanks for doing that Gerry. I'm glad we could at least fill a small niche.

    I had 100 of the 3/4" NPT Big mouth traps made and they are done as of Friday. I had the machinist run one more op and they are ready to send to Amazon.

    I also had another request for 1/2" big mouth traps to be made as crossover trap using the same monster 5/8" orifice. So I have 100 of those in production probably couple more weeks on that.

    The stainless vent Gerry has pictured was an interesting surprise as I had originally sent it to HatterasGuy because I saw it on the shelf. We make those compact traps as an OEM part for many sterilizers, autoclaves and commercial steam cooking equipment. In OEM form it has 1/2" NPT on both ends but Gerry shamed me into making it shorter and also to make the vent cap. So yours truly spent some machine time on the lathe and Bridgeport making that prototype. I managed to make the final part even shorter. I will make up some of those too and add them to amazon and will post links.

    If you need a dozen or so please reach out to me directly and for single orders amazon is easiest for both of us.

    I'll get dimensions and specs Monday.

    Thanks again to everyone that participated in testing and feedback always enjoyable to work on things outside our normal routine.

    And we used to make radiator vents, we owned VentRite at one time but it's too crowded of a market and we aren't set up to make them.
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
    SWEIHatterasguyLionA29
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    Interesting. So, what is the capacity of Big mouth traps?
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    It's in the PDF he posted up top
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    Very exciting. Request to those doing the live testing. Try to see if you can note at what Temps the big mouth will close and reopen. The Gorton #2 is a great cold air venter but has this nasty habit of staying closed for too long (due to its high sensitivity to heat). Maybe try to time how much time it takes from boiler shut down to vents reopening(Gorton # 2 and big mouth). Really looking forward. This may be one of the most exciting new products to hit the steam industry in recent memory
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    Also, can you post an amazon link? Thanks
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    Don't know about the big mouth. If you hit or shake an open #2, the float will rattle or or clank around. Once closed, the float sort of gets locked in place and will not make the rattling noise when hit.
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    Maybe put the vents up on a tee and hook up some bike pump fittings to bull of tee. Once vent opens,you should be able to pump some air through the vent.
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    Agreed. Not easy. Little tap with knuckle will tell you if #2 is open or closed
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    A lit cigarette next to the vents would also do the trick. You should see the smoke bend toward the vent opening as the vent opens. Obviously, not an option in a customer's home. (Definitely not an option for me. I have had more then enough family and friends smoke themselves to death. I wouldn't touch a cigarette, lit or not.)
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826

    Also, can you post an amazon link? Thanks

    At present the only part available is the Big Mouth in 3/4". I will send some off to Amazon and it usually takes a few days for them to show inventory. I will post links when ready.

    The Compact trap vent (which should be known by its proper name The Gerry Gill..." Will be available in a couple weeks.

    While on that subject, Gerry and I were discussing the vent today and he brought up the idea of making the vent variable. The idea being that you could tap (thread) the vent holes and thread in a bolt to limit the venting to match the mains. I thought it would be simple to make the fitting on the top of the vent threaded and then make a mating threaded cap. As you screw the cap (which has the large vent holes) down, it would allow you to partially close off the holes, creating a variable orifice vent. Would be reasonably simple to execute, probably add a little to the cost. Anyone else see the merits of this?

    Would be much harder to do this to the big mouth, although I suppose I could try something.

    As it stands, the big mouth is the better venting vent if you just want the fastest available. The Gerry Gill is better for height restrictions and the possibility I can make it variable. The big mouth is also completely rebuildable by using a standard Mepco 3C disc which is readily available. The Gerry Gill is not rebuildable as we TIG weld the stainless shells together.

    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    Not campaigning against smoking. I had a mentor who was a heavy smoker and lived to 95. Just a personal thing. Anyway, let's not derail this thread. My bad. Back to venting.......
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    edited May 2016
    Big Mouth seems like too aggressive a name......How about " The Donald"?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,831
    Put an orange toupee on it................... >:)
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    lol...or an orange face
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    I don't know....the red rug could be a useful tool. You could see it flapping in the breeze from a distance.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,227
    The fact you can repair the big mouth is a big plus. I have a Hoffman 75 that started leaking steam 3 months after installing it on my steam main, I had one do the same thing about 6 years ago.

    Paying what they cost and having them fail after a few months really pisses me off. I'll just replace it with a Maid O Mist #1, I know they'll last.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Here's what I came up with for a variable vent.

    Same stainless compact trap. The top fitting is threaded 1/2"-20. The cap has a mating thread and (6) 1/4" orifice holes drilled radially. As you screw the cap down it restricts the flow. Should be almost identical to the compact trap Gerry tested earlier in terms of capacity.

    One of the hex faces will have a 8-32 brass set screw to lock the cap in place.

    When Gerry and I discussed it, sounds like it would enable you to match the steam to the mains and tailor the venting to each individual main vs using a number of vents with set capacity.

    Thoughts?

    photo air vent variable_zpsi8juyfq1.jpg

    Open fully

    photo air vent variable open_zpsfgt00jqj.jpg

    Closed

    photo air vent variable closed_zpsbuy8u9gi.jpg
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
    ChrisJSWEI
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966

    I'm seriously not understanding why Gerry wants a variable vent.

    You cannot vent the main by an excessive amount. The only downside to excessive venting is a reduction in the size of your wallet.

    Now, if he needs that vent for a tight space where the new big mouth won't fit, then it might be a choice. But he certainly would not need it to be variable.

    He wants it for balancing mains.
    I have a main in my house that gets steam much faster than the other one. Right now I've got 1 Gorton #1 on it vs 5 on the other.

    This will allow you to find tune so multiple mains all get steam at the ends at roughly the same time.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    edited May 2016
    ChrisJ said:

    I'm seriously not understanding why Gerry wants a variable vent.

    You cannot vent the main by an excessive amount. The only downside to excessive venting is a reduction in the size of your wallet.

    Now, if he needs that vent for a tight space where the new big mouth won't fit, then it might be a choice. But he certainly would not need it to be variable.

    He wants it for balancing mains.
    I have a main in my house that gets steam much faster than the other one. Right now I've got 1 Gorton #1 on it vs 5 on the other.

    This will allow you to find tune so multiple mains all get steam at the ends at roughly the same time.
    This is exactly what Gerry explained is the intent of varying the venting capacity

    Here's the Amazon link for the Big Mouth. Will probably be a week before they get them into the fulfillment centers and the pricing will show up then.

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F26P13C
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966

    Sailah said:


    This is exactly what Gerry explained is the intent of varying the venting capacity

    It is certainly fine in concept.

    The number of individuals who will actually understand and make use of such a product and take the time and make the effort to realize the benefits might be on the order of 10, IMHO.



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    CanuckerMilanD
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826

    Sailah said:


    This is exactly what Gerry explained is the intent of varying the venting capacity

    It is certainly fine in concept.

    The number of individuals who will actually understand and make use of such a product and take the time and make the effort to realize the benefits might be on the order of 10, IMHO.
    Hopefully the 10 order 10 each o:)

    Admittedly a specialized product but why not make the best you can? If I have to make 100 fittings it's not that big of a deal to schedule that short of a run for production and the other components of that vent are already made.

    I make that compact trap in so many variations each version is essentially a custom run. 1/4" compression, 3/8" female NPT for the Military, 1/2" NPT, 1/4" NPT, 1/4" NPT & 1/4" compression...

    And every model has another variation whether or not it is being used as a vent or as a trap...

    And yet another variation is to whether it has a regular diaphragm or a hydroformed bronze bellows (like the custom cage unit I sent you)

    This is about half of the models we make the compact trap

    photo 20160502_135133_zpsmyfxfmgj.jpg
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966

    Did you really get a buzz from that vent design?????


    Be thankful that you are one of the 10.

    No,
    But calling you Ernest made me smile. ;)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Well we do sell 1000's and the compact trap shares 95% similar parts. The only difference is what end fitting it has and which end is up.

    I guess being flexible and agile is what keeps your head above water in business. If you're not innovating, you better believe your competition is.
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826

    I might just buy one for my own short main. One main is 1/2 the length of the other and my data logger shows that those on the short main are more than warm and toasty........................




    Be thankful that you are one of the 10.

    o:)


    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    If we do I'll host a lobstah bake at Barnes & Jones.
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,831
    Send a couple our way, we'll take a look at them.

    And make sure you have some steaks, cause lobstah and I don't get along too well :o
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    @Sailah Do you have the means to test the Temps at which these vents close and reopen?
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,368
    Was thinking of a more precise /scientific method
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,507
    Remember that you are trying to install main vents of less total resistance to the outflow of air, than the collective resistance of all the radiator vents.
    This should make sure that all the mains fill first, before any of the take offs to the rads fill.
    A shorter time is the result, but the real benefit is the simultaneous arrival of steam at the radiators, especially with multiple dry returns.--NBC
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    edited May 2016

    @Sailah Do you have the means to test the Temps at which these vents close and reopen?

    I do have some very accurate temp probes hooked up to my Raspberry Pi datalogging setup but I can't break up that test bed because it's monitoring my top secret steam trap project. We also can't get down to oz of pressure here without changing out our PRVs and that isn't really an option although I may have one PRV that can regulate down to sub 1 PSI as I think I swapped the guts out to a lower pressure range.

    So the best I can do is probably 6 PSIG and use a temp gun. I could also back that up with my Fluke 178 meter for temp readings and tape the thermocouple to the vent with foil tape. That meter is pretty accurate at less than 250 degrees.

    I'll stop by the hippie store and get some incense instead of cigarettes lol.

    At 6 PSI it will snap shut fast. In way less than a second. Will definitely open at sub steam temp. We make these for all the military field sterilizers And as you can imagine they are quite a demanding client with numerous tests allowed before such a critical component passes muster. They are all individually assembled and TIG welded. Then they are all tested under live steam for a minimum of 2 cycles and then a vacuum is pulled on them to check the integrity of the seat.

    This is the customer that requires the 3/8" female NPT fittings. So the same vent we are talking about is the part that ensures sterilization in the toughest environments.

    http://www.fortdefianceind.com/p2131-automated-steam-sterilizer/

    I would probably suggest that I make up a few as before and send them out for peer review. I just finished the threaded cap at my home shop and it came out nice.
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 756
    Well, I'm working on a project right now that needs 52 Gorton #2s.....I'll be ordering 20 of the Bigmouths soon to go with the 25 or so G#2's I have in stock. That little sterlizer vent I bet would be really handy to install a low lift check on the outlet for Naturally induced vacuum systems. Good things is a comin!
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356

    That little sterlizer vent I bet would be really handy to install a low lift check on the outlet for Naturally induced vacuum systems.

    Forgive my cluelessness, but could you expand a bit on the naturally-induced specifics?

    thanks~
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 756
    Naturally induced vacuum systems work by filling the 2 pipe system with steam (sometimes even the returns) and then when the steam supply is reduced to below the radiation capacity of the system, the system drops into a vacuum. You have to have a check valve device of some type to keep the air out at the main vent. This can be done with 1-pipe steam too, but you need either and return air line from each radiator or vacuum radiator vents. With the old coal boilers, the system would gradually go into vacuum, where with newer on/off boilers it can go into vacuum quite quickly. A modulating burner or staged burner would probably work best for these systems.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Here's the prototype. Works great. When you shut the cap the entire way, it's possible to push a tiny, tiny amount of air past the straight threads just by blowing on the NPT fitting. But for all intents, it's closed. Wide open it vents fully.

    I made the thread 1/2"-20 so it permits a pretty fine adjustment.

    There is a 8-32 set screw to lock in place.

    I think this particular vent has a lot of potential for steam heating as well as other applications we make the vent for so I'll make up a run

    photo 20160503_104259_zpsxs6s4ssy.jpg

    photo 20160503_104316_zps3es4xibj.jpg

    Bad pic, it's 3 3/4" tall, wide open including all threads

    photo 20160503_105449_zpsc5z3lpxb.jpg

    Call it a hair under 3 1/2" closed

    photo 20160503_105518_zpsougn54cq.jpg

    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
    SWEI
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Thanks -- sounds like you're envisioning these as system vents on a two-pipe.

    I'm looking at a possible Paul retrofit for a one-pipe system. If there's a suitable vacuum vent still available I could experiment a lot more easily that running all those air lines.
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Big mouth is now in stock on Amazon

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F26P13C
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
    $75 for the equivalent to two Gorton #2s not to mention it's built extremely well.

    How can you go wrong with that!?!?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    ChrisJ said:

    $75 for the equivalent to two Gorton #2s not to mention it's built extremely well.

    How can you go wrong with that!?!?

    Thanks.

    How about $25.00 off for Heating help members with the following promotional code valid at 3PM PDT today? And free Prime shipping. Will keep the deal going until May 18th.

    A1Y444VTLP95DA
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
    SWEIErin Holohan Haskell
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Wow!.....Maybe you better gear up to make more Peter.