Latest round of air vent testing- thank you Barnes & Jones!

Fred

I too would prefer the O-Ring version. I don't see water being an issue and it sounds like pressure in ounces and maybe up to 2 PSI would be a more real world test on a one pipe system. A dab of RTV can't hurt either.

Sailah

EDIT:

I decided to test the vent I had RTV'd yesterday after picking at the O ring with a knife and seeing it firmly in place. I ran it on the test rack and ran it hard. Blasted it 20 times with full water pressure, steam, cool off, water, steam etc. Sealed up perfectly every time, no leaking. When I disassembled it, it looked perfect. I then pried out the O ring and it did come out of the groove and left the groove very clean with zero residue. The RTV adhered itself chemically to the silicone O ring so I feel confident it's a good bond.

So I am redoing all the vents with this new procedure. Lol I feel like Bill Murray on Groundhog Day!! But I am determined to get our best work out the door.

gerry gill

outstanding!

ChrisJ

Sailah said:

I made up at least 50 with the new Quattro O ring. Hopefully it'll even help you drive in the snow. I'll send them out to those that already have them as we discussed.

Please report back any issues or comments, if something isn't right, we'll make it right. I personally tested all the vents and verified they are 100% tight at 6psi. I am also including a spare o ring just in case.

I did not RTV the Oring in place after further reflection. It would be a pain to clean out that groove should the o ring need replacing and it isn't needed for sealing so I left that out.

One thing I did notice about the big mouth is the actual throttle restriction is in the inlet/tailpiece. If someone wanted to hotrod a big mouth, they could enlarge this opening as long as they stay clear of the mating surface between the trap and the tailpiece. I think even a drill would work. But I'll leave that up to you. It's 9/16 opening if I recall.

The Gerry Gill variable vent should be done next week and I think that will also be an interesting addition.

Perhaps you can do like a lot of gaming computer part manufacturers do and sell a "Superclocked" version.

Sailah

ChrisJ said:

Sailah said:

I made up at least 50 with the new Quattro O ring. Hopefully it'll even help you drive in the snow. I'll send them out to those that already have them as we discussed.

Please report back any issues or comments, if something isn't right, we'll make it right. I personally tested all the vents and verified they are 100% tight at 6psi. I am also including a spare o ring just in case.

I did not RTV the Oring in place after further reflection. It would be a pain to clean out that groove should the o ring need replacing and it isn't needed for sealing so I left that out.

One thing I did notice about the big mouth is the actual throttle restriction is in the inlet/tailpiece. If someone wanted to hotrod a big mouth, they could enlarge this opening as long as they stay clear of the mating surface between the trap and the tailpiece. I think even a drill would work. But I'll leave that up to you. It's 9/16 opening if I recall.

The Gerry Gill variable vent should be done next week and I think that will also be an interesting addition.

Perhaps you can do like a lot of gaming computer part manufacturers do and sell a "Superclocked" version.

I'll set one up in the Bridgeport and bore the opening to the flippin max and send it to you for the RTV suggestion, thanks!!

Sailah

All new parts were shipped Friday to those that already have them. I put return instructions in the box. Sent 15 to amazon.

@ChrisJ please send me your address I got a special port matched blue printed big mouth for you. ..

ChrisJ

Sailah said:

All new parts were shipped Friday to those that already have them. I put return instructions in the box. Sent 15 to amazon.



@ChrisJ please send me your address I got a special port matched blue printed big mouth for you. ..

Awesome!
A port a polished vent!

Fred

Excellent! Thank you @Sailah ! You really turned these around quickly.

ChrisJ

Is there anyway someone could take a picture of a Big Mouth next to a Gorton 2?

I think it would be good to show the size comparison.

Sailah

I finally finished a run of the "Vari-Vents". Very pleased at how they turned out. It was a lot more work than I had originally thought due to the number of CNC operations. This vent sprang from the mind of Gerry Gill and with a couple communal emails between myself, Gerry and Dan Holohan, this is the final result.

It vents a little more than a Gorton #2, but is very compact in size. It's also all stainless steel other than the Monel Bronze bellows that are standard in all our diaphragms. We manufacture this vent as OEM for the autoclave/sterilizer industry and these have performed well in the most demanding field military installations as well. It's a rugged little feller.

Pipe size is 1/2" NPT, 3.5" tall, including threads in the closed position.

The cap screws down to limit the venting from full open to almost sealed to allow balancing of mains. Even if it's not used in balancing mode it still flows a lot of CFM (2.53 CFM @ 3 ozs). You can lock the cap in place with a brass set screw.

I'll send some to Amazon and post the link



3.5" tall next to the Big Mouth for size

DanHolohan

Well done!

Abracadabra

How/where can we purchase these?

Sailah

Abracadabra said:

How/where can we purchase these?

I'm going to send some to Amazon for single purchases, please contact me directly for 10+. I'll post the link once it's active

Sailah

Here's the Amazon link. Should be a few days before any stock shows up.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GQP0DQ8

Hitzkup

Sailah said:

Here's the Amazon link. Should be a few days before any stock shows up.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GQP0DQ8

just ordered one to replace my old Gorton #1 tree.

MilanD

Hi @Sailah ,

I've purchsed 3 of the big mouths in the past month or so and have one that's not quite seating all the way at first. A week or so into it, I'm still getting some steam out of it before it does close. I'm using it to vent 50ft 1-1/2 rad riser in combo with 2 more big mouths, 2nd one on the main end (of which this riser goes off), and 3rd is on the bigger rad at the end of the same main and another 30 ft riser. I'm trying to push steam to the end rads first due to the nature of the use of our facility.

At any rate, the other 2 I did not observe doing the same thing where they smoke a little and then seat fully.

I'll try to get a video on it. In the meantime, would this be normal given the pipe size is 1-1/2, long, (probably 70 ft of main to the riser, plus 50 in the riser pipe, the main is a total of approx 100 ft) and perhaps steam reaches it a bit slower to get the temp up sufficiently to seat the disk fully? I'm thinking that's why I'm seeing it on only that one vent.

And a question to other guys, are you seeing the same thing in any of your applications? Would it be possible to get a disc with higher alcohol content to be a bit more reaponsive to a lower temp? This may not be that practical or economical. Is the mepco 3c disc used done with different mixture properties?

Second question/suggestion re venting 2 or more mains and balancing ones that are different lengths using big mouths: couldn't we use bushings to reduce the opening on the female end? A bit crude perhaps, but could be applied similarly to various orifices used on maid o mist rad vents. This would probably get big mouths to replace all othe main vents as it would give it modular venting too for use on multiple mains and main lenghts. Perhaps @gerry gill would measure venting rates with various bushings on the female end.

Thanks!
Milan

Fred

@MilanD , I have five of the Bigmouths and haven't seen any steam leaks out of them. Also, are you familiar with the Barnes and Jones Vari-vent? It was designed as a companion vent and it allows you to adjust the air flow so as to balance those shorter mains. (Pictured above) The vent you have that's leaking a bit, is it the one, on your other post that is placed between the two radiators or just ahead of the radiator? I'm wondering if the steam might be flowing into the rad(s) (I think one is huge) and it may take a little longer for enough steam to hit it to close it?

Fred

@Sailah , Did you take the vari-vent off of Amazon? I can't find it anywhere anymore????

MilanD

@Fred

It's the one between 2 rads. Left rad is on 1-1/4 nipple and the right one reduces to 1 inch. Riser is 1-1/4 to a bull tee thats 1-1/2 x 1-1/4 x 1-1/4.

This is why I think this one that seeps a little is just not getting hot quickly enough to close. I'll try removing the nipple an bolting it on straight on the tee.

After big mouth gets hot it closes fine. This setup is not that pretty to the eye, but I needed to get more edr there so it is what it is. Now I'm dealing with getting even more steam to it and I am there, almost. Had to slightly reduce venting to rads befor these two to push more steam their way. That 50 ft riser is now venting fast. Once we finaly 2-stage that lgb, I'm expecting to get better performance. This room is used for some kids classes with children running around, so I'll cover the rads, I'm thinking some kind of wood enclosure with a cover, with slats all around, wide enough to allow radiation and convection but protect from children getting burned by accident.

I'm having a few more issues I've dicovered since installing the water meter on the feeder, namely, water use is much higher than I expected to see - I'll post about that separately.

Pic of the rads is attached.

MilanD

@Fred

This one closes just fine, I moved it from earler setup to the bigger rad. I don't have a pic of the setup, but it's on this tee (pictured without), on a short 1-1/2 nipple to reducer to big mouth.

This is why I think this one that seeps a little is just not getting hot quickly enough to close. I'll try removing the nipple an bolting it on straight on the tee.

MilanD

Vari vent link:
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01GQP0DQ8/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awdb_FX7Gyb3TCVH45

Fred

@MilanD , most users/buyers don't go to "smile.Amazon" they just go to Amazon and type in Barnes and Jones Vari-vent and it doesn't come up. I'd hate for that vent not to get the sales it deserves just because people can't find it (unless I'm missing something, which is certainly possible )

ChrisJ

Fred said:

@MilanD , most users/buyers don't go to "smile.Amazon" they just go to Amazon and type in Barnes and Jones Vari-vent and it doesn't come up. I'd hate for that vent not to get the sales it deserves just because people can't find it (unless I'm missing something, which is certainly possible )

Amazon Smile is the same as normal Amazon but a portion of the sale price goes to a charity of your choice.

You're almost always missing something.

Sailah

Hi trying to answer a couple questions after all day of demolishing an ancient bathroom in my ancient house

I have heard a couple instances when the vent won't seal perfectly. I test at 6 psi so they close instantly but may be a little slower at 2ozs. If you have one that isn't sealing let me know and I'll swap it out.

I may have some discs made with higher alcohol content and see if those work better.

The vari vent amazon was telling me not to send in more than 1 at a time because it was a slow seller. Every time I send 1 in its gone and takes a week to restock. Hopefully they allow a few more at a time since we have had some action. I sent one in Friday.

I think that answers everything. If anyone wants to help with bathroom I'll give you as many vents as you want lol. I hate home projects that get out of hand. .

Fred

@Sailah , sorry for your frustration on that bathroom. Demo is suppose to be a stress reliever ( even though I never found it to be. It just exposes all the other flaws that need to be addressed). Anyway, Erin added the vari-vent to the HH store but if Amazon only allows1, to a few, into their inventory, do you have another channel that may work better? Hard to believe Amazon would expect sales to pick up if they always show "Not currently available" and " We don't know if/when this will be available again". Those of us on HH know the situation but the casual user, looking for a good main vent won't.

Paul48

Demo's the easy part. Nothing will be plumb or level. Forget 16" O.C., more like anywhere from 12 to 18, varying across the walls. If you remove a mud-set tile floor, it's likely they chopped the crown off the joists with a hatchet. Basically you have to reframe everything by sistering to the framing members. I know, and feel your pain.

MilanD

@Sailah

I heard somewhere that the only thing working in an old house is usually - the owner. Hehe.

Thanks for the offer to swap it out. I'm going to try mounting it directly on the tee, without a nipple, bushing and coupler. This may get more steam volume to hit it quicker. My application of the vent is somewhat different from just on the main, as I have some really long risers for these 2 branches. I'm thinking more responsive disc may be needed for this particular case, but it could be that it doesn't seat. I observed the vent smoke then close. I also did notice some hot air escaping it during operation, but wasn't sure if that's normal due to install location, or if it needs to stay shut until it cools off.

If you judge it needs swapping, how would we go about it?

As to Amazon not stocking this vent, it's purely out of realestate on their shelves, I'm sure. I didn't know of the vari vent main vent until I read this entire thread (I actually did). Big mouth too- until read about it here on the wall.

Most people out there, including Midwest Mechanical that installed our boiler, usually just get whatever they can find at the local supplier, install it and move on. I actually didn't know about traps we have nor was anything mentioned to me until I started reading about it. I don't fault them either, they came to do what I asked them to do and it wasn't to optimize the system, but size and replace the boiler.

As to suppliers, big one here is Winstel Conrols. Whatever is stocked there is what contractors get. That's usually Hoffman 75. I'm not sure if you were to contact various wholesellers/suppliers nationally and offer them these vents, if they'd teach their contractors about it and pick them up. But again, most contractors probably are either not informed or can't spend time balancing systems. For most problems, solution is the "rignt turn only" screwdriver.

Sailah

I don't mind demo. And I don't mind work. But you know exactly the scope creep that happens in an old house. I get all the tiles up off the floor and there's a plank subfloor that's 2" out of level on the short dimension. No problem I'll sister in joists and level it. No so easy cowboy the joist at the wall is under the wall in the next room. Nothing as mentioned is 16" OC.

I don't mind framing work or finish work I worked in a high end cabinet shop. It's just tedious hammering and chiseling of concrete and the mess I hate. But in fairness this bathroom was from the 50s and my wife had me on notice for a year that she wanted it done. I delayed for that long with super important "projects" in my garage shop like running airlines and rebuilding my new Baldor buffer lol. Finally had to get to it.

Any helpful tips on getting the old wire mesh mudwall out? I saw an interesting idea about using a diamond blade in a big grinder like a demo saw and slicing it into slabs. Run a sawzall after the grinder and cut the mesh. Chunk into trash can. Hitting it with a sledge was just making a mess and I had to stop for dinner plans tonight.







Sorry for the detour

Sailah

MilanD said:

@Sailah



I heard somewhere that the only thing working in an old house is usually - the owner. Hehe.



Thanks for the offer to swap it out. I'm going to try mounting it directly on the tee, without a nipple, bushing and coupler. This may get more steam volume to hit it quicker. My application of the vent is somewhat different from just on the main, as I have some really long risers for these 2 branches. I'm thinking more responsive disc may be needed for this particular case, but it could be that it doesn't seat. I observed the vent smoke then close. I also did notice some hot air escaping it during operation, but wasn't sure if that's normal due to install location, or if it needs to stay shut until it cools off.



If you judge it needs swapping, how would we go about it?



As to Amazon not stocking this vent, it's purely out of realestate on their shelves, I'm sure. I didn't know of the vari vent main vent until I read this entire thread (I actually did). Big mouth too- until read about it here on the wall.



Most people out there, including Midwest Mechanical that installed our boiler, usually just get whatever they can find at the local supplier, install it and move on. I actually didn't know about traps we have nor was anything mentioned to me until I started reading about it. I don't fault them either, they came to do what I asked them to do and it wasn't to optimize the system, but size and replace the boiler.



As to suppliers, big one here is Winstel Conrols. Whatever is stocked there is what contractors get. That's usually Hoffman 75. I'm not sure if you were to contact various wholesellers/suppliers nationally and offer them these vents, if they'd teach their contractors about it and pick them up. But again, most contractors probably are either not informed or can't spend time balancing systems. For most problems, solution is the "rignt turn only" screwdriver.

If the vent needs swapping just call me. Or ask Amazon to send you another one. I'll get the old one back eventually. That's honestly the fastest way to do it and they cover the shipping. The Vari Vent wasn't a big seller at all. I had One in stock there for months. Now it's getting a little more action so is a little more popular. But you are right it's simply a real estate equation for them and I understand. But it's annoying to ship one every 3 days when I'd rather send 12 for the same UPS Fee.

I sell to winstel controls. Not a lot but they can buy from me. Honestly for the Big Mouth I'm totally fine with selling them exactly as I am doing. I don't need or want to sell a bazillion of them. I enjoy that they are a word of mouth thing and that I know probably 90% of the buyers from this forum.

BobC

@Sailah My house is not close to the age of yours but I have run into several oddities in my 1918 working mans "palace". The original construction was quirky but sound, the lumber used back then simply isn't available now - at any price. Some of the renovations over the years were less so.

When I peeled the kitchen ceiling off I found joists for the second floor had been cut down to 2X2 from the original 2X8 (full dimension hard fir) to run bathroom piping for a 70's bath renovation. That plumbing company is still doing business today, but not in this house. I sistered those joists to get the strength back,

A 4-1/2" hand held grinder might do do the trick but it will be messy. Cover the bathroom door with taped off plastic sheeting and make sure you wear a rated face mask (and goggles), we want to keep you alive and kicking for a LONG time.

Bob

Sailah

Thanks Bob, I have all the PPE for this job. I read the grinder method will make a hellacious dust tornado and my big 9" metabo is no kids toy.

The SDS hammer drill with flat chisel peeled all those tiles off clean in about 10 minutes. Other than the door area and the small hole I poked in it, the mudwall is in perfect shape. Any yes/no votes to tiling over that? I always feel better starting from scratch but maybe this is one of those times where I'd just be making life hard on myself. Plus think about how heavy it's going to be to haul all that concrete downstairs...lol somebody talk some sense into me.

Fred

I have areas with that mesh as well. i found that a metal cutting blade or demo blade in a sawzall works best. It will cut through the plaster/masonary as well. Must less dust than a grinder or any other circular cutting tool.

Paul48

As for the mudwall......punch a hole with the sledge......stick the hook of a crowbar in the hole, and start pulling it off. Like most of the jobs you're going to encounter, there's no gentle or neat way to do it. PPE is a must. Once you start getting it to move, it will crack and break up.

MilanD

@Sailah

Thanks again. I'm thinking, now that I slept on it, I have the big mouth in 3 locations, so I'll first swap around the 2 of them and see if the issue is location or the vent. Then we'll know if it's needing a more responsive disk or if it will need replacing.

Btw, what gets me with any demo work is removing the debris, in buckets, one at a time. And filling the buckets. And lifting and dumping the buckets, and seemingly having to touch every single piece of that debris coming out, twice... And then having to vacuum the dust. All of this while wearing a mask and having to wipe sweat off the brow with dusty forearms...

I wish you quick arrival to the rebuild phase, where all the fun begins.

MilanD

Btw, if you are leaving the footprint the same, no need to demo the walls and the shower stall, unless you are updating actual plumbing lines and can't access them from the other side. You can, if you are pulling up the shower pan, just wrap everything in shower wrap water membrane and throwel on the mastic over its overlaps. Something like this:
https://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Membranes/Waterproofing-(KERDI)/Schluter®-KERDI/p/KERDI

For whatever reason, link above is broken. You have to select it all -with the 3rd line of the url- and copy/paste. I'm typing from my phone so some things don't seem to work correctly.

KC_Jones

@MilanD I have used the bucket removal method, but graduated to this method a number of years ago. I have also used this into a wheelbarrow and then move it to the truck. Beats those buckets for sure, if you can do it.

Another help with dust when cutting is rigging up a make shift dust removal on the tool. Tape a vacuum hose to the tool in the area where most of the dust comes and hook it to a good shop vac. I have used this with reciprocating saws and rotary tools. I use the small diameter hose from an old house vac and it works fairly well.

MilanD

@KC_Jones

Yeah, I'm old school,... Still working with buckets.

Abracadabra

@Sailah for your wire lathe demo, sawzall and diablo blades and a crowbar. The wire lathe is a PITA

Koan

@Sailah - if you can rent a diamond blade cutoff saw with a water feed it really helps to keep the dust down.

LionA29

@Sailah very humorous! Been through that and it's really going to get messy. Seal off area and get the sledge out.
Good luck and safety first!