Condo Board recommending we convert from central 1 pipe steam to private heating units

Steamhead

margaretnyc said:

I suggested the same thing at a recent meeting when they complained of people's open windows but was shot down by a pro-electric heat committee member

Shoot back. That guy is just an over-age schoolyard bully, who probably doesn't understand anything but a superior force.

BobC

By the time you pay for the electric power to the building being upgraded to handle 113 units worth of electric heat running simultaneously and the individual apartments are upgraded, you could probably install a dozen new boilers.

This sounds like a snowball rolling down hill that will gather up all resources in good order, people have to carefully consider what this might cost BEFORE starting down that road. Make sure you get written quotes bofore anything starts.

Bob

Leon82

I would bet when the quote comes in for electrical upgrade there will be less electric heat supporting owners.

modconwannabe

I'I think the notion of upgrading 113 gas lines in a building would be prohibitively insanely expensive, not least because my understanding is that few old pipes can pass a modern pressure test, even though they're perfectly safe to use for service. And since a handful of buildings have blown up in the past decade from gas leaks, Con Ed makes the process a pain and time consuming.
Electric as everyone seems to agree will be untenable as well.

A couple possible options: offer everyone in the building the option to front the cost of assessment and get a new boiler (or two) and possibly the long term price drops from use of gas heat. Then get a lawyer to draw up opt-out documents and a deadline, so that anyone who doesn't sign up to chip in on the assessment then loses heat to their apt agrees to have their steam lines capped.
Then let them install electric if they want, at their own cost, with their own assessment and opt-out option.

margaretnyc

The "privatizing heat" proposal would consist of each unit owner having to spec out an adequate heater and hot water heater for their respective unit and then hiring a contractor to install. Therefore they may not even have a good sense of the cost until they start the process for themselves. And then there are those who will refuse to do nothing and resort to very dangerous methods of keeping warm. That is why I am getting all my ducks in a row to get broad support for an upgraded central heating system for the entire building (as it was meant and designed to be back in 1909).

SWEI

You should at least speak with John or Gennday before you try to preset your case.

margaretnyc

modconwannabe -The opt out notion occurred to me as well but I would probably only propose that as a last resort if the proponents of the private system are truly steadfast in their convictions. It worries me though, that people would choose to opt out as a way to save a quick buck and in the end, have to pay more monthly electric bills and contribute less to the overall maintenance of the condo.

Jamie Hall

SWEI said:

You should at least speak with John or Gennday before you try to preset your case.

You might even consider paying one of them to address your condo board?

nicholas bonham-carter

One more thing to consider about the individual services, and electric heating:
All the rest of the wiring will have to be brought up to code, with new outlets every six feet, new gfi/arc-fault breakers in the new electrical panels, and non compliant units shut off until they do the work. That may be a way to get the attention of the non-payers.--NBC

jumper

Too bad we don't mention prices here. The cost of installing two trains of three boilers for each building spread over 113 units is reasonable.
Most of the time in NYC each building will only run one boiler. Energy cost will be less than it is now.

I suspect electric proponents don't like radiators.

ChicagoCooperator

I would think both city ordinances and your governing docs (the declaration) would void having capped steam lines to units and may even already prohibit switching to electric unless the association paid for the work.

jumper said:

I suspect electric proponents don't like radiators.

But like electric baseboard!

margaretnyc

So here is another question. Right now, our overtaxed boiler runs 365 days a year because it also heats the water for the building. An easy solution to cutting future costs will be installing new DHW heaters so the new boiler(s) don't have to run during the heating season. What infrastructure would need to be added in order to make and deliver heated water to each unit. Can the existing pipe runs that currently deliver hot water from the boiler room to each unit be used? Sorry if this is a silly question.

nicholas bonham-carter

If you would have several smaller boilers in each building, then only for hot water would one run, only when chilly would two run, and only when it's sub-zero, would the third one run.
Smaller boilers would probably be cheaper per BTU than one giant one, and give a measure of redundancy, in 30 years if problems should develop.
A proper installation will be automatic, quiet and economical, but must be maintained yearly by knowledgeable steam professionals.--NBC

margaretnyc

I'm thinking of a dedicated hot water heater that wouldn't need a boiler to make hot water. Isn't that possible?

ChicagoCooperator

margaretnyc said:

So here is another question. Right now, our overtaxed boiler runs 365 days a year because it also heats the water for the building. An easy solution to cutting future costs will be installing new DHW heaters so the new boiler(s) don't have to run during the heating season. What infrastructure would need to be added in order to make and deliver heated water to each unit. Can the existing pipe runs that currently deliver hot water from the boiler room to each unit be used? Sorry if this is a silly question.

No, it's not (either difficult or a silly question). This was done at my building - the boiler originally provided domestic hot water via a heat exchanger. At some point (1971 actually) during gas conversion, they installed a separate hot water heat - a very large conventional tank model. Since all the tanks and piping were in the boiler room, it was really just a rerouting of the hot water lines a bit and disconnecting the massive original storage tank. Your building(s) are bigger, so you might have to have smaller boilers and a storage tank for each, or continue to run the boilers as is done now.

BTW did I read correctly that you still have remaining renters from before the conversion? Their leases and the city may not allow a switch to paying for heat individually as this would be a lessening of service. New York has many "odd" laws that even other renter friendly cities like Chicago do not have, vis-a-vis rent stabilization. I'm wondering if the pro-electric crowd is thinking that this would drive out renters and get the units sold or trigger them being taken out of rent stabilization (assuming they are under such now).

JUGHNE

Dedicated hot water heaters are available that can operate at 95% efficiency. That may be a plus card to play at the table.
However they require their own venting that would have to exit thru the side wall....this sometimes can be challenging in the cities to meet codes.

ChicagoCooperator

Individual hot water heating would require a lot of plumbing changes in every unit, unless you're talking about a central system.

margaretnyc

My suggestion was to run the DHW heaters in the basement and use the existing hot water pipes from the basement to each unit. The owners looking to privatize heat and hot water delivery are proposing individual heaters per apartment.

BTW did I read correctly that you still have remaining renters from before the conversion?

There are still some remaining rentals owned by a sponsor who is renovating and selling them to owners as they become vacant. It is a good question, however, and I will add it to my growing list for the board.

Jamie Hall

margaretnyc said:

My suggestion was to run the DHW heaters in the basement and use the existing hot water pipes from the basement to each unit. The owners looking to privatize heat and hot water delivery are proposing individual heaters per apartment.

Your owners looking to privatize are getting wackier by the minute...

Fred

Some of these crazy ideas just have to run their course before they "die on the vine". I don't see anyway to make this kind of conversion financially viable. Give them enough time to understand the implications/costs and the "Silence will be deafening".

margaretnyc

The odd thing is that the proposal to abandon the central plant came up at least 2 years ago by a small group of owners (maybe 2 or 3) and has still not died. I think there was little opposition because people didn't really understand what the full implications will be for them as owners. I came into the conversation only last week when I attended a facilities committee meeting and have been feverishly compiling data and sharing it with others. I think you are right, once people hear both sides, they will see the logic to maintaining the infrastructure and doing what it takes to install the most efficient system possible. It will be a big job for sure and owners will have to be assessed to pay for it.

Steamhead

What you may find is that one or more of the volt-heads "just happens to know someone who can do the conversions". Wouldn't be the first time we've seen such an unholy alliance.........

BobC

It's easy to convert one unit to whatever, it gets VERY complicated very fast when you realize what it takes to do 113 of them.

Cost overruns will be rampant.

Bob

nicholas bonham-carter

One thing you could do as a start: use the SlantFin app to get a rough idea of the heat-loss for each the buildings. From this could be calculated the total amount of electric power needed for heating.
Compare that figure, (plus normal load amounts for refrigerators, lighting, etc.) with the present capacity of the electric service. I suspect the service will have to be enlarged to handle this new load.
With that amount of electrical modification will come the necessity of upgrading the number of outlets, panel boxes, arc-fault breakers, and on and on.
To add insult to injury, also from that load calculation, the average cost of heating with electricity could be had, (high!).
I hope the condo regime documents would prevent any one from installing any electric heat until the whole service has been upgraded.
The magnitude of this work which could take longer than a year, and be so disruptive, and yield such discomfort as to make life in a prison more attractive!
Maybe John, or Grennedy will know of an electrician who could supply these estimates, which can be compared with the steam repair estimate.--NBC

SWEI

nicholas bonham-carter said:

One thing you could do as a start: use the SlantFin app to get a rough idea of the heat-loss for each the buildings. From this could be calculated the total amount of electric power needed for heating.

If you're talking about electric resistance heating, it's not going to be high -- it's going to be positively stratospheric.

tim smith

Question for condo owner, I have not seen it noted yet but do you have a/c in units? This could modify the thinking some if so.

JUGHNE

Was the age of the building ever stated?
Pictures would help with the discussion.
If you have access to the electric and gas metering room(s), pictures in there would maybe show a lot.

The Steam Whisperer

Chicago Cooperator brought up a common Chicago practice...tear out central steam and put in individual forced air units. These conversions are typically done in high population density areas and nearly all of the installations I have seen flagrantly violate venting requirements and fire safety codes. I have even seen these installation in new construction and the city continues to ignore the issue. The vents are nearly always on the sidewalls, often into 3 foot wide walkways between buildings and are almost never 10 foot from the property lines, are less than 7 feet from operable windows ( often they are venting directly at adjacent buildings windows), and in corners etc.,etc., etc. Even if they were vented to the roof ( never seen one instance yet) the vents would have to pass through other units and would need to be inspectable their full length on a yearly basis. I bet there is widespread carbon monoxide poisoning occurring in these areas. BTW, Illinois code requires 90% + Afue furnaces.
Also, when installing ductwork, fire seperations are often penentrated with no work done to restore the wall or ceilings.
With these installations also comes: Multiple sources of fires, multiple sources of CO, expanded sources of gas leaks, and an overall decrease in efficiency potential of the building. There was reason why most older buildings had central heating plants....one was to seperate the mechanical equipment from the livings spaces in an effort to improve life safety.

These installations are a ticking time bombs, and there are tens of thousands of them, mostly in the expensive, upscale neighborhoods of the city.

To demonstrate the scale of ignorance regarding the removal of central heating plants and installing seperate furnaces, I had a building engineer complain about the problems with the central vacuum steam system and the huge fuel bills, but was unwilling to repair the traps and upgrade the system to allow outdoor reset, etc.. He said eventually the system was just going to be torn out, and separate furnaces installed in the 150 units or so. The approx. 15 story building is located in downtown Chicago and is built lot line to lot line amongst similiar buildings and the 100 story Hancock building on Michigan Ave.

( shaking my head)

gerry gill

Let me describe a building with a central steam boiler in Cleveland Hts. The building is apartments and the owner is in Arizona. The building is kept in perfect condition. I generally wont work for landlords as most are cheap. But i work for this guy. He is frugal, not cheap. He figured out a way using cellular devices that attach to the radiators and a monitoring company to have the tenants pay for individual heat. Then he put TRV's on every radiator to allow occupants to control their heat. His end of the bargain is that he maintains the system in tip top condition AND HE DOES!

SWEI

Interesting -- I'd love to learn more. It sounds like he could be monitoring average radiator temps, or perhaps counting cycle times? Is he monitoring every radiator?

thanks~

gerry gill

Somehow he monitors each radiator and a signal is sent to a company that somehow mathematically calculates percentage of use. I'd have to contact him to find anything else out. I just know he is brilliant in that he came up with a solution where everyone wins. Business genius.

ratio

@gerry gill, maybe the landlord might be willing to share some details? His setup sound interesting if not downright useful.

nicholas bonham-carter

I wonder if there is that much difference between the charges made using this system, and an average BTU per square foot price for the whole building.
Only one floor has greater exposure than the others, and it receives heat from below.--NBC

SteamCoffee

So again, is ConEd steam not available in this area? Almost all of Manhattan is plumbed for it, why not make life easy and simply DISTRIBUTE steam in the buildings and eliminating its creation, and apparent problems for this property? Seems so obvious.....

margaretnyc

If don't know of any buildings in northern Manhattan are on district steam. Our building BTW was built around 1907 since it was asked earlier.
The Steam Whisperer - thanks for elaborating, you summarize a lot of the very compelling reasons why privatizing would be ludicrous for our pre-war building.

I am going to reach out to a couple of your fellow steam experts this week to help us do a full analysis of the situation and present some realistic options for the board to consider.

As always, thank you for all the great advice!

SWEI

margaretnyc said:

I am going to reach out to a couple of your fellow steam experts this week to help us do a full analysis of the situation and present some realistic options for the board to consider.

An excellent plan. Do let us know how it goes -- we so often hear about these things after the butchery is done with, so it's always great to see a bit of forethought.

ChicagoCooperator

margaretnyc said:

If don't know of any buildings in northern Manhattan are on district steam.

I don't think the steam system goes that far north - in fact, not north of Central Park if you google the steam maps.

ColinFarquhar

Not wishing to butt in... but I'd be interested to see any pictures of the current installation.

nicholas bonham-carter

So would all of us!--NBC

LouisFournier

When I run into a project like this, I feel like you have to really turn it into a hybrid system utilizing Rinnai direct vent space heaters, Fujitsu mini split heat pumps. The more zones the better in my experience if the utility Co can't meter usage you will always have people crying foul. I'm in Maine where heat costs are a big deal with today's technology steam is just not a practical option especially when the cost of fuel is high. There are a lot of great options with converting existing radiators to forced hot water and if necessary replacing with wall hung panel radiators. One thing for sure one boiler for two buildings complicates the one pro about steam, Simple. Electric resistance heat how do you say it "gedoutahea"