Condo Board recommending we convert from central 1 pipe steam to private heating units

Steamhead

LouisFournier said:

with today's technology steam is just not a practical option

Says who?

nicholas bonham-carter

Think of the pluses with separating the apartments into separate electric heat services.
If you don't now have enough receptacles to plug everything in, then soon you will have when all of each apartment is rewired up to code. Worried about electrocuting yourself on something plugged in near the sink? Don't worry, the new (each costing 3 Harriet Tubmans) GFI-arc-fault breakers will keep you safe! Just don't expect to use your old kitchen aid 1970 mixer, as that will trip the breaker every time, but it's safe!
When the plaster has been stripped from the walls to put in the conduits, it will be a cinch to put in the needed insulation, for heat retention, and for sound deadening. Might as well change the windows while you are at it. With enough R-Value, the heating bills should come within a hundred dollars of the old steam system costs.
Now for the fun part-you can stay at a fun stylish boutique hotel for a few weeks, while all this work is going on. You will all be the envy of your friends, and your bankers during this time.--NBC

BobC

Folks who have owned their condo's for 30 or forty years will be pleased to find they are going to pay for that condo once again - because that is about what tearing everything down to the studs for wiring and piping will cost when you factor in what it costs to upgrade the buildings gas and electricity infrastructure.

If the building were empty and the plan was to gut it individually installed and metered heat would make sense. With enough money anything is possible, I think those looking for individually metered heat will choke when they see the costs involved. It might be best to wish those folks good luck and long distance,

Don't allow any tools to be used before getting written and guaranteed quotes on all the work. If a low ball quote, without written guarantees is accepted you will die a thousand deaths because of change orders for unforeseen events.

Bob

The Steam Whisperer

LouisFournier said:

When I run into a project like this, I feel like you have to really turn it into a hybrid system utilizing Rinnai direct vent space heaters, Fujitsu mini split heat pumps. The more zones the better in my experience if the utility Co can't meter usage you will always have people crying foul. I'm in Maine where heat costs are a big deal with today's technology steam is just not a practical option especially when the cost of fuel is high. There are a lot of great options with converting existing radiators to forced hot water and if necessary replacing with wall hung panel radiators. One thing for sure one boiler for two buildings complicates the one pro about steam, Simple. Electric resistance heat how do you say it "gedoutahea"

Two problems with this idea. Direct vent heaters probably could not be installed safely or legally in the building due to venting issues. Also, it appears you haven't been keeping up with steam technology, IIRC, steam can be as much as 250% more efficient than condensing hot water according to a recent study by MIT. In straight forward low pressure steam heating, steam can be expected to be on par with condensing hot water heat. If you use mod-con steam boiler technology and outdoor reset of steam temperatures, it probably would be even more efficient than hot water due to elimination of all the pumping costs.

margaretnyc

The Steam Whisperer - can you provide a link to the MIT study? It would be a great document for me to share with the Condo board, thanks.
Margaret

GregWeiss

@nicholas bonham-carter NBC why do you think if someone were to install electric heat it would require bringing the whole building up to today's code? The apartments are already individually metered.

I think by far the best option is to get a steam pro in there to rework the existing steam system. However I don't think you would be made to rewire the entire building if you were to go electric.

Jamie Hall

GregWeiss said:

@nicholas bonham-carter NBC why do you think if someone were to install electric heat it would require bringing the whole building up to today's code? The apartments are already individually metered.



I think by far the best option is to get a steam pro in there to rework the existing steam system. However I don't think you would be made to rewire the entire building if you were to go electric.

If -- and only if -- the existing wiring were capable of handling the electrical load would you get away with it. However, as soon as you have to put in larger gauge feeders and breakers... it all has to be to code. And I'd be very very surprised if it were.

JUGHNE

Did I miss them or were there ever any pictures posted of this project?

jumper

This code stuff makes me happy that I'm retired. How many mishaps were there when receptacles were still two prong? Virtually all were due to tampered fuseboxes. Since breakers were adopted all NEC improvements prevent stuff that never happened.

As for rewiring,the expense may be reasonable if building has drops.

Jamie Hall

jumper said:

This code stuff makes me happy that I'm retired. How many mishaps were there when receptacles were still two prong? Virtually all were due to tampered fuseboxes. Since breakers were adopted all NEC improvements prevent stuff that never happened.

As for rewiring,the expense may be reasonable if building has drops.

I tend to agree -- and it's one reason why even partial rewiring the place I care for is not on the table. But agreeing with the sentiment doesn't help you persuade the building inspector or ConEd that you don't need to do it...

ChicagoCooperator

nicholas bonham-carter said:

When the plaster has been stripped from the walls to put in the conduits, it will be a cinch to put in the needed insulation, for heat retention, and for sound deadening. Might as well change the windows while you are at it. With enough R-Value, the heating bills should come within a hundred dollars of the old steam system costs.

Gotta be careful adding insulation to old brick walls - we don't want condensation to damage them!

jumper

ChicagoCooperator said:

Gotta be careful adding insulation to old brick walls - we don't want condensation to damage them!

Yes,insulation should be on outside and still allow bricks to breath. Siding is more practical.

Abracadabra

LouisFournier said:

heat costs are a big deal with today's technology steam is just not a practical option especially when the cost of fuel is high.

had to chuckle when I read that.. are you being sarcastic?

Steamhead

He's apparently one of those guys who hates steam............

Dave in QCA

It seems that some folks preference for putting in individual electric heat is based primarily on the fact that some of the condo occupants are not paying. I would assume that the heat is added to the condo fee, or is a part of it. I find it absolutely amazing that a condo boards method of dealing with delinquent occupants is to install the worst possible heating system that could be imagined. Sounds like you need a good competent condo board advisor! Someone is not doing their job.

And I completely agree with the concerns regarding the capacity of the building to handle the new electrical load. While each unit has its own meter and panel, it is possible that each panel may have the capacity to handle the added load, but it is doubtful. Then, you have to consider that there is also central wiring that comes into the building and provides service to which all of the individual meters and panels are connected. How many Kilowatts would be added to each unit? What's the total for the building. the board can't just say it's up to the individuals. I'm sure there is a central electrical feed that is going to fall back on the board as a cost of the building.

Keep the steam, switch to Nat Gas, install a new, or 2 new boilers. Were they originally in the 2 separate buildings? if so, that makes the most sense and would provide better control. Do the individual owners get to vote? Do they know their costs of conversion? Their cost's of operations, the downward effect that the conversion will have on the property value of the individual units because the central building systems were abandoned? The idea of individual responsibility and self sufficiency is one thing, but when people buy into a condo or a cooperative, it is because there is a benefit to all of sharing costs of operating the building.

Good Luck.