Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

Harvey Ramer

The energy efficiency ratings that are stamped on a piece of equipment are one of the smallest contributors to overall system efficiency. That is a fact.

The technician who installs the equipment is one of the greatest contributors to overall system efficiency. That is also a fact.

The majority of existing forced air systems have very little to gain by changing the equipment to high efficiency. Frequently they loose. Particularly when a constant volume ecm blower is installed in a restrictive duct system. By the way, restrictive duct systems constitute the vast majority. To the tune of 90% or better. They are often built into the house and not easily rectified. Not to mention, manufacturers can pick 3 different test methods to get seer ratings and they set up their equipment specifically for the test. Once it's in the field, it will do it's own thing. Why? Because squeezing super high seer ratings out of a unit comes at a sacrifice. Comfort/Humidity would suffer, hence they electronically control them to address humidity and guess where the efficiency levels are while that happens. They do similar things for heat pumps as well.

The majority of American hot water systems are high temperature. The majority of modcon boilers that get installed in these systems don't get anywhere close to their advertised efficiency levels. Another fact.

I really believe that the standards are in the right place for now. I also believe that energy efficiency should be seperated into 2 distinct categories. One being production and on being utilization. If any standards are lacking at this point, I contend that they are energy utilization. That should be the focus till the scale is balanced and then we move forward.

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

And what about people living down south?

Dr. Carrier only discovered air conditioning 100 years ago give or take. What did they do then?

The real issue as Harvey has recently stated is the installer and the application of the equipment, but that has been beat to death in this thread already.

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ChrisJ

AJinCT said:

Steamhead, the topic of the thread was why energy efficiency standards are so far behind the technology. Most of the thread doesn't address that. It's an internet forum, it goes off-topic. I get that. But it's still off-topic.

Harvey Ramer, Yes, a lot more is lost due to sub-standard installs than the efficiency ratings. But why *not* increase efficiency standards? Higher efficiency equipment is also more comfortable, as you have mod/cons that modulate and use an ODR, VRF heat pumps and A/C that keep the temperature constant, etc.

In terms of the installation and applications, that's a good idea, but how would you address sub-standard work? Certifications? Training? Licensing? Require calculations? Are any states already doing any of this like MA or CA?

True, but older houses, when insulated and air sealed can run with a lower temp as design, and then add an ODR to that, and you're going to average temps way below the standard 180 or 190F. So to say that they were installed as high temp systems doesn't really mean much.

R Mannino, Very few people lived down south prior to A/C.

Yeah,
Mexico, all of South America, Australia, Philippines etc were all baron until A/C was invented. There was practically nothing south of North Carolina until the 1970s when A/C became semi-affordable.


You're amazing.

ChrisJ

Gosh darn it I keep getting sucked back into this garbage!

I can't help but respond!!!

DAN HELP ME!!!!

R Mannino

ChrisJ said:

Gosh darn it I keep getting sucked back into this garbage!

I can't help but respond!!!

DAN HELP ME!!!!

It just like teasing a dog through the fence!

BobC

sorry, wrong thread

Bob

ChrisJ

BobC said:

I've used megohmmeters for most of my life and the old style were pretty dear. I did a brief search and turned up this one that might be a good option for a reasonable price, looks like it applies 500 to 2,500v for testing..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-BM3549-Megohmmeter-Digital-Insulation-Resistance-Tester-Multimeter-FREESHIP-/251958240293?hash=item3aa9e1a425:g:cS8AAOSwPhdVUwI2

You might check with your supply house to see if they have something similar.

Bob

You are SO in the wrong thread.

njtommy

@Hatterasguy did you ever get that unicorn HTP boiler and pump debate smooth out?

njtommy

Sorry should of been smoothed out. But I really meant did you get every thing operating currectly or to your design?

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R Mannino

Taking a/c out of my house would be a disaster.

The way I see it energy efficiency is tied to money (what else?). If you can spend money to save energy and you want to you will. If you don't care you wont. Then there are those that don't have it ($) to spend it they'll pick up some used equipment on Craigslist.
So, that being said we could raise standards to the sky but I'll keep driving my 1993 Ford E 150.

ChrisJ

@Hatterasguy I need to find an affordable high powered electric deep fryer. I've got a 40A 240V circuit in the kitchen that would be perfect for it but all of the ones I've found are very expensive.

Any ideas?

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ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

@Hatterasguy I need to find an affordable high powered electric deep fryer. I've got a 40A 240V circuit in the kitchen that would be perfect for it but all of the ones I've found are very expensive.

Any ideas?

The troll is going to freak out if you purchase and utilize a deep fat fryer. Do you know how much energy they use?

Found a nice Vollrath model that does 2500W with 220-240V in.
Sounds like a match!

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, I honestly don't think most people have a clue. No clue how inefficient an 80 CI gas boiler is, no clue how inefficient SEER 13 air conditioning systems are, no clue how inefficient poorly insulated oil boilers are, no clue how inefficient their screwed up ductwork is, no clue how bad their house's envelope is with poor insulation and failed windows, no clue how inefficient unbalanced baseboard systems are.

Well I'm glad I'm not everybody. I'm acutely aware of the costs to run my household. All those things play into the comfort and costs to maintain the home. Just look at the popularity of SUV's.

Sadly as a general rule most people don't care about efficiency levels, only dollars.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

@Hatterasguy I need to find an affordable high powered electric deep fryer. I've got a 40A 240V circuit in the kitchen that would be perfect for it but all of the ones I've found are very expensive.

Any ideas?

The troll is going to freak out if you purchase and utilize a deep fat fryer. Do you know how much energy they use?

Found a nice Vollrath model that does 2500W with 220-240V in.
Sounds like a match!

............obviously, you don't have a clue on how inefficient they are.............

Nope I don't.

But Texas had a population of 3,048,710 in the year 1900.
Georgia : 2,216,331
Louisiana : 1,381,625
Alabama : 1,828,697

And best I can tell, they all grew steadily from the year 1900 until now with no noticeable increase in the 1970s-1980s. In fact, I'd say the largest increases were between the year 1900 and 1950.


But, we all already knew that, now didn't we?

US Census records readily available at your finger tips. Just a wealth of data available to everyone.

Steamhead

AJinCT said:

Steamhead, the topic of the thread was why energy efficiency standards are so far behind the technology. Most of the thread doesn't address that. It's an internet forum, it goes off-topic. I get that. But it's still off-topic.

You are not the Moderator of this forum. If you have a problem, our Moderator is Dan Holohan. It is not your place to tell the rest of us what is and is not off-topic, and it never will be. You need to adjust your attitude.

R Mannino

Hatterasguy said:

That fool probably spent $4000.00 on gasoline for his $hitbox when gas was $3.00/gallon and he complains bitterly about the fuel inefficiency of a CI boiler that uses $1000. of natural gas for the year. Talk about stupid.

More gallons go in my truck in six months than go in my oil tank in a year. Costs me way more to roll down the highway than to heat and cool. If we add in the cost of the vehicle, fuggedaboutit.

Which brings up the fact most people would much rather have a nice vehicle than have a new and/or efficient HVAC system in their home. Efficiency standards aren't really the problem in my mind, people's attitudes and priorities on where they spend their money is.

ChrisJ

My 2012 Chevy Sonic has a life time average of 40 MPG and I've seen 49MPG on a few tanks. I've never seen worse than 38MPG in 77,000 miles.

And even my car, eats far more fuel than my steam system in a drafty uninsulated 150 year old house with 26 windows.

What's the best efficiency you can pull out of the typical gas engine, 15%?

Yes, 80% furnaces and boilers are clearly a huge concern here.

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ChrisJ

AJinCT said:

ChrisJ, It is a well-known fact that A/C caused the growth of the south post-WWII.

http://porch.com/advice/hvac-and-southern-population/

Oh, well if Tim Ellis said it, it must be true.
According to Census records, and the curve I see, I call BS.

Many southern states practically peaked by the 1950s and there's no way air conditioning had anything to do with that.

Abracadabra

ChrisJ said:

@Hatterasguy I need to find an affordable high powered electric deep fryer. I've got a 40A 240V circuit in the kitchen that would be perfect for it but all of the ones I've found are very expensive.

Any ideas?

Buy an electric DHW heater tank and convert it to a fryer

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, I think a lot of the problem is that people just have short-term thinking, and don't look at the long term. Do it cheap and live with the consequences later.


In case it has been lost in the 7 pages of mostly off-topic drizzling about this and that, the original question is why are the government energy efficiency standards so far behind widely available technology?

Exactly my point, HVAC efficiency is not really important to most people. They'll still have a big ole SUV in the driveway to offset any savings anyway.

Now what about the squandering of energy on heated swimming pools, hot tubs, snowmelt ect, ect ect.

The fact that the available technology has surpassed the standards tells me something.

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino

R Mannino, Well, you could say the same thing about cars. I got my 2007 Civic because it had the lowest TCO of any 2007 model car, when you factored in maintenance and gas costs. It gets an average of 30-35mpg. People don't think through the TCO on a big, shiny new gas-guzzling truck or SUV.

You thought it through, why don't "other" people think about it?
Because they don't care.

ChrisJ

Speaking of cars.

The CAFE standards are going way up in the next 10 years and IMO, will be exceeding the technology, much like they did in the 1970s. Expect some painfully slow cars and trucks in the near future.

KC_Jones

No idea what you are talking about......

ChrisJ

sunlight33

Why does one simple, innocent thread bring out so much hatred and nastiness in human nature?

ChrisJ

You see hatred and nastiness here?

sunlight33

I take my words back, I see a lot more nastiness in the GOP debates, you guys here are actually doing fine.

KC_Jones

sunlight33 said:

I take my words back, I see a lot more nastiness in the GOP debates, you guys here are actually doing fine.

You mean circus right?

Steamhead

KC_Jones said:

sunlight33 said:

I take my words back, I see a lot more nastiness in the GOP debates, you guys here are actually doing fine.

You mean circus right?

Circular firing squad is more like it.

hot_rod

This post is getting near as many views as some political debates.
Is the op a trump energy czar?

Fred

Geeting as many attacks/insults as Trump likes to dish out too!

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Unknown

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R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino,

What does the fact that the technology has surpassed the standards tell you? It tells me that the standards haven't kept up with the technology.

It tells me if I want high efficiency I can have it, but if I choose to have something a little less efficient but a little more durable I can have that instead. Where do we draw the line with regard to energy efficiency standards? How much is enough?

We can force everyone to tighten up the envelope of their home. The energy police can drive up and down the block with IR cameras and issue citations for leaky houses. When does it end.

If you have half a brain and the means to execute the improvements (HVAC, envelope, etc) then you do it. If you don't care and can afford to be wasteful, you will.

In the mean time I'll keep driving my gas guzzler, cause I can.

hot_rod

AJinCT said:

Hot Rod, we'd definitely have better efficiency standards for equipment if I was energy Czar. I'd definitely also look at energy auditing the buildings and a program to improve installs.

But it seems standards without enforcement is where we end up always. And the product manufacturers find work-arounds.

As many noted, energy is too cheap for most to get interested in this endeavor.

In the meantime nothing stops consumers from buying hi-efficiency equipment and systems, the stats on boiler sales prove it is a viable product and consumers are onboard.

I spend time and money on my RE future. If and when it is viable I'll be 100% RE. But the govt will find, they already have, a way to tax the suns energy.

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