Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

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Gordy

I'm asking the steam gurus if it's feasible to accomplish with their Exisiting boiler. It's already there.

Steamhead

AJinCT said:

I do love the heat pumps

Well, that explains a lot. Must have been some pretty tasty Kool-Aid.

AJinCT said:

Steamhead, You could also buy a decent mod/con that's going to last. Sure you can handle moving them around, I'm just surprised anyone actually wants to compared to a mod/con that's the size of a suitcase.

Because they will outlast any mod-con, that's why. In Europe, as I understand it, if a mod-con more than about five years old breaks down you have to replace the entire unit. Cast-iron lasts for decades if properly cared for.

AJinCT said:

Hatterasguy, Steam is not the point of this thread, but I didn't say all steam had to go. I just said it's not as efficient as hot water,

You haven't given us the numbers to back this up. I asked you before, have you made a truly scientific comparison? Have you built two identical buildings where one has steam and one has hot-water? And since you also say that

AJinCT said:

Forced air is more efficient.

you would have to build three test buildings.

Until you have done this, and the results have been independently verified by a disinterested party, you're just blowing smoke.

ChrisJ

Hey look no statistics on mini split MTBF. There's a surprise.

ChrisJ

Ok, I'll be fair.

I'll provide my data, and then I expect to see something from you other than your thoughts and opinions.

Now, some of the data I'm providing was published in the ASHRAE Journal back in 1994 by William L. Holladay so it's a little dated but it's still fairly accurate. There's also a 2012 article written by Martin Hollday on Green Building Advisor.


http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/choosing-energy-efficient-refrigerator

You argued these machines are smaller, so it's not a fair comparison. My point was they use less energy than modern refrigerators. You were, talking about saving energy right?









OK there's my data.

Let's see yours, on ANYTHING.





P.S.
I heat my house for less with steam heat maintaining the same temperature as my next door neighbor does with forced hot air. His furnace is less than 10 years old.

SWEI

AJinCT said:

The MSHPs average a COP of about 3, so you're looking at 120% average on natural gas, before you account for nuclear and renewables.

That math is quite region-specific. Out here we need a COP above six in order to make an electric heatpump less expensive to operate than a NG-fueled mod/con.

njtommy

What are the rates where you are?
@SWEI

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ChrisJ

@AJinCT

Here ya go!
5.6 cu. ft. capacity ENERGY STAR

Brand new SMALLER (5.6cuft vs a 6-7cuft monitor top) and it's even manual defrost.





Imagine that?

a 1935 6 cubic foot, manual defrost monitor top consumes practically the same amount of power (20.3kwh per month) as a 2016 5.6 cubic foot manual defrost mini-fridge (19.6kwh per month).

Actually, the monitor top for it's size is slightly cheaper to run!


BUT HOW CAN THAT BE!?!? The technology simply didn't exist back then according to you.

ChrisJ

.

SWEI

njtommy said:

What are the rates where you are?

@SWEI

From January 2016 bills: NG $0.501 per therm small residential and $0.406 per therm light commercial. Residential electric $0.138 - $0.177 (depending on usage tier and season) and light commercial electric $0.162 - $0.170 depending on time of year.

Rates above include all variable costs -- assessments, adjustments, surcharges, taxes, etc. but not the monthly customer fee (currently $5.68 for single phase electric, $9.62 for small 3-phase, $12.42 for residential NG, and $21.60 for light commercial NG -- again inclusive of taxes, etc.)

Hard selling efficiency here at the moment, except to customers on LPG.

Gordy

I thought .12 cents was bad. A kilo.

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njtommy

Wow your NG price is cheap.
Last year I was 1.34 per therm this year it's
1.09 a therm plus$ 10 service fee.
Electric is .09-.11.

Steamhead

AJinCT said:

How does one NOT sell efficiency when a Navien boiler is a couple hundred bucks LESS than an inefficient 400 pound clunker from Weil Mclain before you even get to paying the contractor to haul that clunker in?

The cast-iron boiler will in all likelihood still be running faithfully 20-30 years from now. And you won't have to pay for increasing the gas service capacity which is often needed when you're heating hot water in real time, rather than with a tank. Or for completely re-working the venting system.

The Navien? Who knows how long that will last?

AJinCT said:

The numbers and the physics are there. Re-heating 65 degree air is more efficient than re-heating 120 or 140 or 160 degree water, which is more efficient than re-heating 200 degree condensate. That's physics.

What you fail to mention is that there is a lot less water in a steam system to be heated than in a hot-water system. So that balances out.

As for scorched-error, you can move more heat more distance and more efficiently using a water-based system. The average duct system loses about 20% of what goes into it. This is one of several articles I've found on the subject:

http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/49899/No-Duct-System-Losses-by-2050-ACEEE-Thinks-So

Even if you put a 98% furnasty (whose rating I would question) onto a typical duct system, you would still not do nearly as well as a water-based system.

Bottom line is, you need to back up your position with some real-world testing, as we've described earlier. No one is going to take your word on anything just because you're an "engineer". You want to prove your point? Build the houses.

ChrisJ

@Steamhead
Furnasty! Nice.

Furnasty for forced hot error.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

@Steamhead
Furnasty! Nice.

Furnasty for forced hot error.

I can't take credit for that. Someone wrote to Dan years ago and used that term, and it caught on.

ChrisJ

I'd like to see a system like Gerry Gill's minitube tested for overall efficiency. Throw 1" or 2" fiberglass on all of the piping and see how it does.

Steam with low mass convectors and small piping all very well insulated. I'd say it would make a forced hot air system look disgusting, but they do that all on their own. Anyone that has ever looked in a duct knows that. Especially ones mounted in the floors which is common.

RJMCTAFO

Most oil houses should probably convert to something else, and no one should be heating just with oil.

This statement is ludicrous and insults the work I have been doing for the last 15 years.

I am located in CT. I have houses with oil fired heating systems that use very small amounts of fuel. The cost to convert to LP in our area with a modcon would NEVER see a ROI. NAT is not an option.

I live in Coventry. Have a family of four living in a 1400 sq ft house built in the 50s. 2x4 construction. Blew 20" of cellulose in the attic on top of the R-13. 20 year old windows. Heat and hot water with the thermostat set at 71* and I used 436 gallons last year. Cost me slightly less than $800.

Have a 2300 sq ft house in Tolland on oil. (Pic of install is my profile)
Installed it this December. He just got a delivery Friday of 186 gallons. Heat and hot water.
With the current price of oil that means he got heat and hot water for that period for only $297.

The majority of my parents oil customers use lees than 600 gallons a year.

Don't make broad statements that sound foolish. People here see and install a lot more than you "read about".

Gordy

njtommy

How this for energy efficiency? Lol
Saw it on Facebook Mechanical hub.

ChrisJ

njtommy said:

How this for energy efficiency? Lol

Saw it on Facebook Mechanical hub.

Everything in the future is chrome

Steamhead

njtommy said:

How this for energy efficiency? Lol

Saw it on Facebook Mechanical hub.

You can't fix stupid!

Steamhead

Hatterasguy said:

RJMCTAFO said:

Don't make broad statements that sound foolish. People here see and install a lot more than you "read about".

I must repeat myself.

Depends on what you feed them. Truth is poisonous to some trolls....................

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Steamhead said:

Depends on what you feed them. Truth is poisonous to some trolls....................

Incorrect my dear Watson.

Trolls simply ignore inconvenient truths and keep rambling onward. Just check out this thread. Remember, the goal of the troll is to incite and inflame and he has succeeded in spades (especially with you).

And what about all of the future traffic that comes through and reads this thread?

It can still be beneficial.

vaporvac

But it's so hard not to jump in and correct misstatements! He called my system an "experiment"... a 100yr old one, I guess.

BobC

And it seems a successful experiment at that.

Bob

ChrisJ

vaporvac said:

But it's so hard not to jump in and correct misstatements! He called my system an "experiment"... a 100yr old one, I guess.

You don't mess with The Top when I'm around.
It's efficient because it's engineered correctly and that's that.

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Steamhead

AJinCT said:

Steamhead, How do you know the Navien *isn't* going to last?

How do you know it "is" going to last?

AJinCT said:

The water gives off heat when the zone stops running. True with a typical duct system. The scorched air will be more fuel efficient with good ductwork though.

Define "good" ductwork.

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

AJinCT said:

Steamhead, How do you know the Navien *isn't* going to last?

How do you know it "is" going to last?

AJinCT said:

The water gives off heat when the zone stops running. True with a typical duct system. The scorched air will be more fuel efficient with good ductwork though.

Define "good" ductwork.

Any ductwork that isn't in my house.

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Steamhead

Navien doesn't seem to have as much confidence in their product as CI hot-water boiler makers do. They offer a 10 or 15 year limited heat exchanger warranty:

http://us.navien.com/WarrantyInformation/

while CI boiler makers offer limited lifetime warranties on their heat exchangers. Here is Burnham's. Note how their cast-iron hot-water boilers' heat exchanger warranties compare with their mod-cons':

https://file.ac/g4EJNiqT2zg/Limited Manufacturers Warranty.pdf

Weil-McLain's warranty page doesn't seem to be working at the moment, but Slant/Fin's cast-iron warranty is here:

http://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Homeowner-Info/warranty_castiron_ci_w.pdf

and their mod-cons' is here:

http://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Homeowner-Info/warranty_condensinggas_lx_chs_vsl.pdf

This is all I had time for, but I see quite a difference in life expectancy among hot-water boilers. I don't remember what warranty the five-year throwaways had, but if they were similar they must have crippled their manufacturers.

Regarding ductwork, when it is concealed you don't see where and how much it leaks, wasting energy, and if duct testing is performed you still have to actually find the leaks. But if a pipe leaks it will show up quickly, and once repaired, no more leak. And if a steam system springs a leak, it will not cause as much damage as a hot-water system can. Advantage- Steam, then Hot-Water.

ChrisJ

Even if it was the most efficient and used the least energy which it doesn't, especially if you look at energy consumption of the blower.

And even if the lack of comfort due to constant temperature swings wasn't there.

I still don't want this in my house and it will always happen over time.

sunlight33

wow, what a thread!
I didn't know there is more fun besides the 40 delta T.

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Brewbeer

I got rid of my forced air system. Noisy, dusty, uneven heat. Ductwork took up a ton of room in the house. Now it's gone. I use window units for AC.

Steamhead

The V7 situation is not typical. That boiler was a problem from the get-go, and stories about their handling of warranty issues abound. The V8 series had some issues too. The one thing they did right was to encourage upgrading to an MPO or MegaSteam once those boilers came out, but that didn't stop people from switching to gas if they could.

All warranties are pro-rated to one degree or another. That's not the point. If nothing else, a warranty is a fair indication of a manufacturer's confidence in their product, and the shorter period before a mod-con's warranty becomes useless speaks volumes.

ChrisJ

There's no duct work in my house

njtommy

I could definitely go to mini splits, but never a window unit.

I grew up in very old house that had no heat on the 2nd and 3rd floor. We had grates in between floors and heat rises. Well it at least that's the theory right? My bed room only had 1 outlet. I Laugh about it now and wonder if that's why I got into this trade not even realizing it.