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Steam Radiators only hot half way across
Comments
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I agree with KC on all points.
Address main venting. Then balance rads. The Hoffman 1A (I have 20 year old vents still working fine) or, people here also like the vari-vent
http://www.hvacrsupplynow.com/VENT-RITE-1-STEAM-AIR-VALVES-ADJUSTABLE_p_1787.html
You can easily balance the system yourself and save your pennies for other things. Well, it may be time consuming but it's not difficult.
KC is also right at you being able to run everything off the existing boiler. Ditto on thermostat and esp. on removing burners. There is a right and a wrong way to do this. We had a large commercial LGB 11 boiler with removed burners and it seems to have workder, but it was in a dedicated boiler room with a 2x3 grill opening in the wall and I can't attest to fuel use, but I'll look it up on Monday.
Get 2nd and 3rd and 10th oppinion. Some people know more than other. And some people will do only that which they know how to do.
And just to add an idea, if you only have one room heat issue, or spaces that won't be used much, do look at newer electric baseboards. There are some quite good new ones out there (supplyhouse.com). With install you may do yourself, labor and suppies saving will more than offset occasional higher electricity use.
EDIT: new electric baseboards are oil-filled and therefore emit residual heat when of, if set on a thermostat.0 -
Nicholas referred to this main vent - new from Barnes and Jones since last time you were here:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01F26P13C0 -
One last note re building heat loss calculation.
Steam boiler is sized based on number of radiators and their EDR rating, not the building heat loss. Boiler has something called sq ft of steam rating, look at the sticker. This is the EDR which is calculated by counting sizes and types of radiator sections and adding it all up. Boiler size matches this calculation.
If this was not clear to your pro, he is not a pro but a "pro", and definitely not for this project.
EDIT: It may be true your heat loss as calculated is less than boiler btu rating. Point is that boiler is sized to radiators and not building heat loss. It is also possible you have too much EDR for the heat loss and that is why not all your radiators heat across their respective lengths. Given what your "pro" calculated and suggested, I'd quadruple check his calculations. Unless someone replaced original radiators with bigger ones, I cannot perceive it being installed inaccurately when the house was built. But given that the rads are newer thinner tube/column ones (someone correct memif I'm wrong), it is possible they were replaced and oversized. It's easy to compare edr output and calculated heat loss to make sure. At any rate, unless you are replacing radiators too, boiler should always be sized to radiators currently there.0 -
Is the floor with the thermostat the cold floor?
I had a similar problem with my first floor too cold and second floor too hot. I agree with most posters in this thread, and this is how I solved my uneven heat problem:
1. Improve main venting by bigger/more vents on ends of mains--Gorton #2s or B&J Big Mouths
2. Then adjust radiator vents to slow the heating of the rads on the hot floor and speed up the vents on the cold floor. , as one poster said, the varivents you pictured can sometimes vent too quickly on rads and especially on large rads on not so cold days effectively steel steam from slower venting rads. Consider using some other type of variable vents on the rads on the hot floor rads.
3. I did the above and got pretty close to balance in temps between floors, but was still occasionally getting large overshoots on temperature on my second floor, so I replaced my old mechanical mercury bulb thermostat with an inexpensive new thermostat, about $40 or so, with a once a day setback that I do not use, and now all floors are within 1/2 degree of each other.
That's the sequence I used, maybe it will or keep for you. The basic premise is to get more heat to the cold floor faster and less to the hot floor(slower rads) , main venting makes this easier as does variable rad vents, and make sure the thermostat is not causing the boiler too run too long, overshoot the set point and then overheat the hot floor. Hope my experience will help.0 -
Hi all. Well great news my Mother survived the Dbl pneumonia and will be leaving hospital tomorrow on to healing therapy care until she's strong enough again. My family's been at the hospital every day for 10 days so I've not had a second to get back and read all the fantastic info. Let me try to reply in order of comments. Please keep in mind the company sent two techs one who's more techy, reads you guys a lot and mentioned he takes, is it Dan's classes when he comes east to NY. I followed them around and listed and heard new terms and words, so there's a chance I did them a disservice if I quoted incorrectly.
Don't any of you live in NY? I'd love to hire you guys to do this. I used to be in the record biz and I'm envisioning treating you guys like I would a band, booking a tour around the USA and you'd either lecture or install or both. As we used to say about hits, you'd be "red hot"
RED HOT: 3 of these didn't heat the room at all and just cost us a fortune in electricity.
@KC_Jones: They definitely mentioned downfiring. And it was said in conversation so a call to Dunkirk wasn't made and didn't sound like it was time yet since they were in concept stage. Of what I over heard, Mains venting didn't seem part of their thinking. It sounded like the plan for them was: re-vent each rad. Balance them, move the thermostat using wireless as the most cost effective with the rad venting they could balance between floors. Very different from what you all are saying. Like: "Main venting is the absolute first step."
@nicholas bonham-carter - there are already 2 boilers. The large 250k for our steam rads in the house, and the small 30k for our potable needs in the house and the "Granny 1 bdrm Apartment" on the first floor, which has 3 water baseboards: living room, bedrm and bath.
Our Boiler Room with 2 boilers:
Apartment Living Room Water Baseboard:
Apartment Bathroom Water Baseboard
Apartment Bedroom Water Baseboard:
So.. since we already have 2 boilers, I "assume" their thinking was to increase the 30k to a 50k since our water baseboard heating needs will increase when we're ready to install the 2 baseboards in the Family Room. Currently the 30k seems able to handle our large Weil water tank and the 3 baseboards you now can see in the Apartment.
The down-firing idea they explained was because the 250k is overkill for our steam needs, and if we keep the 250k as is, and increase the 30k to a 50k, we'll go over the gas meter capabilities which will cost around $3k or more to upgrade. So they were trying to not upgrade the meter by lowering the 250k BTU use, plus they felt we were using more energy than the steam rads need.
To be fair, they spent a good deal of time measuring and discussing the heat loss for the Family Room, and I'm not sure how they came up with the idea the 250k was too big, but they gave us the impression it was pretty much more than our need, hence the down-fire idea. New to me.
@MilanD - and all. I remember them definitely counting our rads re: our BTU usage and need, so perhaps they did the EDR thing right? The Family room had three 8' electric baseboards that were older as you can see and we turned them on to test and all we did was lose a lot of money that month. Turned them off and removed them and turned the 220 lines into dbl gang 110 boxes since in those days they had only 2 single floor sockets for the whole room (18'x 22') and this is supposed to be our media room! Now we have 10 110 sockets. All we gotta do now is heat this room
@Gary Smith: Yes, I totally get that even as a new bee. I'm surprised the guys who really are great guys and seem like they know their stuff, but they don't seem to get Main venting, and were really focused on the thermostat being a big part of the problem. Let me address this: We can set the thermostat at 70, and the temp on floor 1 shows 70, but floor 2 keeps pumping. The extra heat is NOT heat rising. It is the Mains pumping to them for sure as I can tell, Mr, NewB. What I don't know enough about and don't get is, if the thermostat is set to 70, and the 1st floor is at 70, shouldn't that turn off the boiler? Why does it keep pumping to floor two and why is floor 1 cold and feels a lot colder than 70? I put a thermometer on the wall under the Thermostat. Currently, the Thermostat is set to 68, the thermometer at that area of the floor is showing 68, but instead of turning off, the 2nd floor is HOT. So we have to set the thermostat to like 64 to make it livable on floor 2.
I need to learn what a hot water loop is. Would this eliminate the 2nd 30k boiler that is set to become a 50k boiler? And instead of down-firing the 250k?
I'm not sure all the pix posted. So let me try and see:
But seriously, I might be smarter and cheaper to fly some of you here, we got plenty of room to put you up and have you do the job. Has anyone ever done that?0 -
SUMMARY: Since we can't heat the Family Room until our Airbnb tenant moves out end of March, it sort of sounds like, if our other issue, big issue, is 1st and 2nd floor balance, and if it's only a matter of Mains, that as where we left off last Winter, it sounds like I can do this with your guidance which you've already posted. If we need to swap out rad vents to adjustables and then balance them, well, maybe, since I gotta work, we should probably hire someone. We have time to finalize on the Family room. Unless 3 electric baseboards will really work. The team that were here felt that the stone walls and 3 windows are the challenge because when we walk into that room, we are essentially walking into the outside as it is now. And they pointed out, heating a room with no insulation whatsoever, and that is as cold inside as it is outside means we have to have a heat system that will not be having to heat up the room from scratch every time we want to use the room. We will have to keep the room at a moderate temperature if we're gonna use it occasionally, and then up the heat a couple hours before we want to watch TV or play music.
We sooooooo wish we knew the right thing to do for the floor balancing and the Family Room heating. We've been at this for quite some time. We keep learning but every time we feel we're close to "the" answer, we find we're not. Like many of the comments here which we really thank you for your educated on the mark remarks. Thanks to everyone one.
Steven and Ann0 -
Very glad mom is doing better!
Just a small note, and perhaps others will correct me. If you are indeed on an oversized boiler, it may be difficult to balance things because 2 things happen: 1. Steam volume created is more than pipes and rads can absorb, that is, you may have all the venting you want and still not vent fast enough and build ptessure before rads have a chance to fill with syeam. 2. Also, 2nd floor rad risers are usually a size lager than 1st floor. This would naturally create a preferred path for the steam even if you were venting the 2nd floor rads on the slower vent. If you indeed have main vented the best you can, you may nees to slow down 2nd floor rads venting even more, to force the steam into 1st floor rads, and at the same time, open venting on them as much as possible. Perhaps even installing 2nd vent on the front of the 1st floor rad, to help venting the risers to the radiators themselves.
As to stone walled media room. I have at work, a 38x61 ft ballroom with 15 tf ceilings, all brick and no insulation, and 8 big single pane 4x8ft windows. Room heats on 500 EDR of rads (120,000 btu), without an issue. Trick will be figuring out how best to deliver the btu needed. You may look into mini split heat pump. There was a post here about someone using it only up in Utah or other cold place. If I'm not mistaken, they can heat down to 5F outdoor temp.0 -
Follow the steps I suggested earlier in this thread:
1. Good main venting
2. Slow vents on second floor rads, vent-rite #1 is a good one
3. Fast vents on first (cold) floor.
4. Consider replacing thermostat if first 3 don't reduce temp overshoot on second floor. Nothing fancy needed, simple round no setback, or simple one setback will do, under $40.
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I would also add if they plan on balancing with rad vents I would almost garauntee the over shoots and overheating will be worse not better. They will have to use huge rad vents to have any hope and by the time the thermostat reacts those rads will be pumping out massive amounts of heat.
Keep in mind turning the boiler off doesn't turn off the heating. Cast iron will stay hot for a long time. As long as it's above the ambient room temp it's continuing to heat. This is what you are currently seeing.
Moving the thermostat in my opinion is a snake oil salesman talking. All it can do is turn off the boiler. It can't do anything with different floors. Also if they are thinking of putting in wireless sensors on the 2 floors all that will do is average. So if the second floor is 5 degrees warmer it will still be 5 degrees warmer, but the first floor will be cooler than it is.
The venting as has been said, main venting MUST come first. This isn't really an opinion it's an accepted standard on steam...period. If they don't know this they haven't been paying attention to anything on here or in Dan's books. If they are in here refer them to this post and I am sure everyone will help them out...if they want.
The suggestion of putting everything on the steam boiler saves you from buying a whole new boiler. If you have the capacity in the steam boiler, you could add the hot water loop for the stone room to that and just leave the other hot water boiler alone. Don't touch anything on it. Not sure how that flushes out cost wise, but not buying an entire boiler should help.
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Steven
You have a nice-looking home!
I can throw in a bit of info, but most here know more than I. Vent the mains fast. make sure the vent in the slow to heat radiator is functioning. You can test by swapping one with a radiator that heats all the way. One thing, sounds silly but make sure all the radiator valves are all the way open. Some have tried to balance systems with the radiator valves and I am pretty sure it does not work for a one-pipe system. thaey should all be wide open.
1) I have the exact same thermostat - from 1969. I think replacing it is a good idea. I have had a tough time getting ours to work right. I have attached the owners manual. Make sure the "anticipator" is set at close to 1.2 and avoid using much of a setback.
2) your radiators look like mine as well, so I attached a guide to calculate EDR (Equivalent Direct Radiation) If you add this uop for all the radiators and compare to the boiler EDR it lest you know the sizing of the boiler to the radiators. Yours appear to be mostly 5 tube. Maybe Pierce-Butler like mine, but close enough to use the attached to figure that out.
2) color hardly matters at all, but metallic finishes much more. I love the red. I have attached a chart for reduction of heat by radiation. Note that color does not affect convection (heating the air nearby) only the heat by direct radiation (like the sun heats the earth). Red is close enough to either terra cotta or maroon. To answer your question, the red will not hinder radiation. Here is a link:
https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/does-the-color-of-a-radiator-matter/
As stated here before, only the metallic paint really hinders direct radiation.
3) The B&J "big mouth" main vents are fantastic, made by a gentlemen @Sailah who is here on the forum often. They vent Rated at 3.6 CFM @ 3 ozs, faster than a Gorton #2, which is faster than a Gorton #1, which is faster than a Hoffman 75.
here is some info:
forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/159452/barnes-jones-big-mouth-vent
4) @Fred, @Steamhead, @Jamie Hall, and @gerry gill all very well versed and have all been of great help to me along with many others here.
Good luck!0 -
I left out @nicholas bonham-carter and @KC_Jones, and @MilanD all great.. there are many others too.
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Hi All, Your helpful words have both concerned us about the “help” we thought we were getting from the heat company who’s been analyzing our home.
Since we can't heat our Family Room until our tenant moves out end of March we can leave all that conversation for awhile now.
Therefore we’ll address the floor balancing and if we can do it.
I can create antlers and add the right vents per your advise I’m quite sure.
The solution, from your thoughts seems to be much simpler than the heat company’s thoughts. Just venting the Mains and possibly dealing with the thermostat, going to wireless and moving it perhaps to our master bedroom so we can get to it fast and hopefully because it will actually help the balancing.
I still don’t understand how we can set the thermostat to 69, the main floor gets to 69º, but the boiler doesn’t stop and keeps sending steam to the floor above the main floor and to even hotter than 69. The thermostat isn’t really working in this regard.
If we move the thermostat to our master bedroom and set it to 69, assuming the Mains are balanced properly, shouldn’t the thermostat turn off the steam boiler when the heat setting is reached?
We do have some rads that don’t heat all the way across as stated over this discussion. Do we need to fix this? Can we? Or am I over complicating once I go from Mains venting into rad venting? So for now just stick with over all floor balancing?
In some of your comments about rads and EDR, here’s a summary of what we have on floors 1 and 2:
MAIN 1ST FLOOR - (5 Rads):
Foyer: - 16.5" Wide x 35" Tall, Varivalve - 100% open.
Living Room: - 68.75" Wide x 23" Tall, Varivalve - 95% closed.
Dinning Room: - 38.5" Wide x 22.5" Tall, Maid-o-Mist, vent size looks like "D". From the picture, you can see the vent hole size is quite large:
Kitchen: - 19" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "C".
Guest 1/2 Bath: - 12.5" Wide x 28" Tall, Gorton "6".
BEDROOM 2ND FLOOR - (8 rads):
Master Bedroom: - 39" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "4".
Master Bath: - 36.5" Wide x 17" Tall, Varivalve - 95% closed.
Hallway: - 28.75" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "5".
Bedroom 2: - 31.25" Wide x 23" Tall, Varivalve - 80% closed.
Bedroom 2 Bath: - 13.75" Wide x 22.5" Tall, Varivalve - 50% Open.
Bedroom 3: - 16.5" Wide x 22.5" Tall, Gorton "C".
Bedroom 3 Bath: - 16.25" Wide x 16.5" Tall, Varivalve - 50% Open.
Home Office: - 36.25" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "D".
TOTAL MAIN FLOOR RADS = 8
TOTAL 2ND FLOOR RADS = 5
GRAND TOTAL RADS BOTH FLOORS = 13
TOTAL GORTON VENTS = 7
TOTAL VARIAVALVES = 6
MAINS: Last February, I documented the Mains including length, pictures and creating a basic mapped layout diagram to show you the configuration that you can see earlier in this thread. Please check page 1 of this tread for that info.
Floor balancing never sounded too difficult as long as I had your input for the Mains vents and antlers, which I know I can easily build them
The only reason I asked the heating company for a quote was because if their price was affordable, it would be one more thing I could take off my ToDo list and have a warranty in case something went wrong. But if we're just talking about adding additional Mains vents, and possibly a new thermostat that doesn’t need wiring being wireless, then what could go wrong, right?
The Thermostat is a new discussion from last February. From your comments I get the sense a wireless system in a different location isn’t expected to have a dramatic effect. Certainly not to the degree the heat company expressed to us. But on a convenience level, if we moved it to our master bedroom and we learned what the temperature showing in the thermostat’s window equals in real heat terms by putting a thermometer next to the thermostat then we should easily know what temp setting is needed to get the desired heat level. I’m doing that today.
Can you bottom-line the floor balancing work for us once and for all?
If the floor balancing only means making antlers with vents that you would advise the components to get and assemble, and maybe a wireless thermostat and if the master bedroom makes sense for location versus downstairs as is now and we can ignore the 13 rad re-venting for now or possibly forever, then it’s easy, right?
It seems the most complicated thing her is deciding whether I do the work, or hire someone. And it just doesn't sound complicated enough to hire someone.
The Family Room heating is a different story as mentioned, which w’ll start to discuss an approach, type of heat (gas stove, water baseboard or electric) as we get the floors balanced and closer to April.
We're looking forward to your comments so we can finally finalize who and how the floor balancing can best be done.
Thanks so much,
Steven0 -
C&D vents are way too big for those radiators, and even the 6 is too big for the bath vent. I don't like using varivalves as they are finicky at lower settings and also don't contain a float. Quickly venting a radiator will cause steam to short circuit the radiator and it won't properly heat up.
Start by venting everything with either a 4 for the smaller rads or 5 for the larger ones and make sure your mains are vented very well.0 -
Stephen,
I'll attack this in few posts.
Thermostat can overshoot because all of them have some kind of "swing" setting. They will overshoot by some and then also wait for temp to drop by some factor before engaging and disengaging the boiler. This is mostly done on hot air furnaces as they don't have residual heat like the radiator and if not doing this overshoot, it would short-cycle which is hard on the equipment... Same applies here, esp. with an older tstat which may be also slightly malfunctioning.
So, whatever new tstat is and wherever location of the new tstat is, make sure it's set for steam, or 1 cycle per hour. Better vented and shorter systems can get away with 2 cycles. My 3 mains at work are 180 ft long, each. My thermostat has setting for 1 cycle, then for 3. When set on 3, it doesn't run long enough to get the steam everywhere. Anyhow, new thermostat needs to be able to be set for steam, on 1 or 2 cycles per hour so that it can effecrively create and then deliver the steam everywhere long enough to warm the room.
There are Ecobee3, Honeywell Red Link and also other tstats out there that should work well with steam, plus have wifi capabilities for control from anywhere on an app, and additions of several wireless temp sensors and also abilities to average out temps (which I think is unnecessary on a balanced system, which we all want).
So, new thermostat will help with overshoot of temp, but you still have the balancing to work out: getting steam everywhere at the same time and with the same volume/intensity...
How to do this when pipes are different sizes and lenghts? Think like steam (water). It will go the path of least resistance. We know from experience you need mains vented as fast as possible (steam at the end of the main quickly). Then, you have different rad risers lenghts, sizes, and rad sizes. So how does steam get everywhere at the same time with these 3 variables? Slow down steam to short risers, speed up to long risers. Now, 2nd fl. risers are usually longer (well almost always if main is in the basement), but also most of the time a pipe size up from 1st floor. So, same venting on 1st and 2nd floor will make 2nd floor hotter (wider pipes make for less resistance, and steam will want to go there first, and quicker). Sure, some steam will go to 1st fl. just not as much. This is, I believe, what's now happening with your heating.
So, make vent antlers as needed and vent mains quickly. I forget if you have 2 mains - longer one and shorter one will have to be balances too - shorter will need slower venting to force more steam to a longer pipe, so steam arrives at end of each at the same time. So sometimes you don't want as fast venting in one of the mains if the main pipes lengths are not equal. Steam need to get to the end of both at the same time, which means shorter main needs to vent slower (so 1 vent vs. 2 on the longer main).You can use volume calculator to find out total pipe volume and compare it against various main air vents' capacities.
http://www.handymath.com/mission.html
Now you get to play with venting to rads by floor, distance from boiler and width of pipe, and I forgot to mention, size of rad.... You can use same volume calculator and compare volume against vent capacities of various vents (Garry Gill did the tables, see attachment, or get 13 varivents and go to town).
Think like water, and you'll be there. (Dan Holohan, I believe, got that expression from Bruce Lee.)
Rads close to boiler and on the 1st floor have to vent slower, rads on wider pipe close to boiler have to vent slowly too, but usually same as 1st floor just before it, or maybe a bit slower bc pipe to it is wider... But rad might be bigger, so then a bit quicker... Etc... Fun stuff.0 -
Let me see if I can attach Gerry Gill's document. Nope. Will have to do it from a laptop.0
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Honeywell tstat I mentioned previously is TH8000 model. I use this one and am happy with it. I'd like to try 2 cycles per hour setting, and this one doesn't have that, so 1 it is.
http://a.co/2Z4yvWV
There is this, same thing just not touch screen:
http://a.co/1IxyWNb
And the Ecobee3:
http://a.co/ap3tBc6
Search here on "best thermostats" and see what comes up.
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Steven
it will be ok - people here will help.
First, main venting
Vent the steam mains so that air can get out as steam fills the pipes. These are the gold colored vents you found - replace them with B&J 3BM.
Next, I know your thermostat is ancient. even if you get a simple one for now that sounds like a good place to start. You can look at an Ecobee 3 if you want an upgrade - it can average between two rooms.
Once the thermostat sees its cutoff temp it should tell the boiler to stop. Note that there is an "overshoot " function and that it is not precise. That's where the anticipator function comes in. Set it to 1.2 as per the manual that I sent. From your picture the Thermostat may be older than you are.
My understanding of balancing a one pipe system with radiator vents is that it is difficult to do. Please make sure all the radiator valves are fully open by closing them and re-opening them.0 -
Thanks everyone for your kind words about my Mom. Back to work:
@Gary Smith - thank you for the concise list. We're supposed to get a quote any day and will see what it entails.
@KC_Jones - moving the Tstat to the 2nd floor was me just wondering. The heat company want to keep it on the same Main floor and the wireless was to save on the electrician cost.
I've been toying with the idea of sending them, but they're really nice guys and I don't want to offend them and some of the comments are pretty to the point. I'm thinking it might be better to simply find out their final plan and then ask about alternatives like if the Mains aren't in the mix, etc.
KC: could you explain how a hot water loop works? Am I correct in assuming that if the heat company is correct and we have more boiler than we need, that instead of down firing it, use the extra BTUs in the form of water to run into the Family Room when we get to that job beginning of April? If I'm guessing right, this would mean the 30k potable water boiler would stay and heat our potable and apartment baseboards as it is now, and the new hot water need for the Family Room comes from the big 250k boiler? If the big boiler can generate enough BTUs in the form of steam for the house and water loop for the family room that would be a huge savings.
@MilanD - we know the Split would be the best plus we'd get AC and the gas meter wouldn't be effected at all. BUT unfortunately, it doesn't at all fit the style of the room or house and Ann really REALLY doesn't want it. We even discussed painting which would no doubt mess up the warranty
So the Split is out.
What type of heating are you using to generate the 120,000 BTUs?
@koan - our heating maintenance company just replaced the tStat with a Honeywell. I'm not sure of the model. And it's VERY simple. The only controls I see are for setting date time but nothing about an anticipator, unless it's hidden a bit.
The one switch I see is a setting for either:
Electric or Heat Pump
Gas or Oil
And the switch is set to: Electric or Heat Pump. Is that correct?
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Read the manual on that tstat, if you have a one pipe steam system I think the slide switch should be set for gas or oil, and there is an additional setting for steam which you set
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Oh, the style... been there. I'm all about utility.
In all seriousness, take Ann on a trip to Italy this spring before your tenant moves out, and you'll see all these old historic buildings tastefully using mini-splits. You can even mason in similar stone around them or use some decal wrap (like ones on buses) to hide them. The only thing not perfect with those splits is using them on building with 0 insulation as they will be on a lot... maybe get a wood burning stove in there for some radiant.
I think, from what was said earlier, use the existing boiler to add a secondary hot water loop off it. This can be ran in pex and can come together quickly for 3 - 4 rads. Our 120k btu is a part of the large 720/600k btu system, I only used it as a point on how much BTU seems to take to heat 38x61x15 ft uninsulated space with large windows. 500 sq ft EDR of steam radiators.
Here's the pic.
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I wouldn't use a mini-split either. In addition to not being period appropriate (appearance wise), they can be quite messy, in a finished area cleaning them annually to ensure mold doesn't grow in them. A lot of people use them but not my preference.0
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Just called Honeywell and they and the installation manual for mine (Model: TH4110D1007) has that switch for the fan per the manual
http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Pro4000Install.pdf
Page 5
Where it says the switch should be on Gas or Oil since our boiler is natural gas.
And on my there's no wire on the G terminal so it definitely should be Gas/Oil and not Electric/Heat Pump which is where it was. I put it on Gas/Oil.
Is that OK? Does anyone know what the result of this change will be? Like the fan mentioned on page 5
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It should be set for Gas or oil but you should also hold the up and Down arrows on the front of the unit until you get to function "5" and it should be set to "1" for steam. See Page 6 of the manual.
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That steam setting is buried in the menu system, and is similar to the old "anticipator" setting on your old thermostat. and yes - set to Gas/oil0
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Here's an article about running a hot water zone off a steam boiler.
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/how-to-run-a-hot-water-zone-off-a-steam-boiler/
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Hi all. With my 2 surgeries last year that I'm still healing from, I'm just not up to doing all that needs doing to balance our floors. We've had a company over to assess but a quote hasn't arrived yet as they are just too busy. So frustrating. I've never had so much trouble giving work. I don't know if it's permitted on this site, if OK, can anyone recommend a heating company that understands the kinds of thinking and approaches discussed here, in the Westchester, NY area who you regard and who wants work and who is available?
Again we have two jobs:
1. balancing our main and 2nd floor
2. adding heat to our family room, presumably using hot water baseboards, probably requiring a new boiler unless the condensate from our bigger boiler is enough to heat the room as KC links to above?
Thanks guys!
Steven0 -
Go to the "Find a Contractor" link here on HeatingHelp and put your zip code in and see who you find. https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/
There are several great Steam/Hydronics Pros around you. The question is do they travel to your area??? @EzzyT , @Dave0176 , others?0 -
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It dawned on me that because we have a maintenance contract for our boilers, that if we proceed with anyone other than the contracted company, we probably would void our contract. So Yesterday, I called them to have someone take a look and experience the temp difference between our two floors and get their opinion and also see if the fix was within our agreement. While the tech that came over wasn't as techy as you all, he did present a point that's never been mentioned before. You all couldn't see it without being here, and the other company that wanted to solve the imbalance rad by rad versus venting the mains, never pointed out until yesterday that steam is flowing to both floors well, but the configuration of the floors are extremely different which to the tech yesterday, said balancing our floors will be very difficult with one zone. I created quick diagrams for each floor and as you can see, the main floor has very large open rooms, more windows and doors and heat loss than the 2nd floor. It is obviously, even to this new bee, easier to heat the 2nd floor than the more expansive spaces on the 1st floor. The living room alone is quite large and there is nothing on the 2nd floor like it. The 2nd floor is better insulated than the 1st floor too.
We've never discuss this here, but I'm wondering your thoughts. The tech yesterday's opinion is that because the floors are so different in sized rooms and radiators per room, that the main floor is simply harder to heat. The living room while having the largest rad in the entire house, it's all the way at one end and there are many windows that are not particularly well insulated being a 1932 built home.
So the 2nd floor will heat up faster and hotter than the first and being that there is only one zone, we can't easily send less heat to the 2nd floor and more to the first.
Perhaps all your venting directions are exactly what is needed here. But, because I never have shown you how different the floor layouts are, perhaps this changes things. The tech yesterday feels it does and wants me to get a few cheap thermometers and put them throughout the upstairs and downstairs and take daily reads to see how the Tstat setting effects not just the 2 floors, but the rooms on each floor. He felt then we could average what for example 68º Tstat setting averages throughout the 1st and 2nd floor so we can then get a sense of the difference and try to then strategize how to accommodate our floors within one zone. If we had 2 zones, obviously we could set temperatures for each floor which we can't do now and need to average a setting.
Also, there are 7 Rads on the 2nd floor with smaller spaces that are better insulated, and 5 Rads on the first main floor with larger spaces that are less well insulated.
Here are my rough diagrams.
Best,
Steven
Second floor - Bedrooms
Main Floor:
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Taking temperatures in the various rooms cannot hurt.
You replaced the thermostat and appear to have set if correctly if you followed @fred's directions above.
What have you done with the main vents? If the steam mains are not rapidly vented you cannot balance the room temperatures with radiator air vents. Report back on main venting (unless I missed this in the long chain above).
Make sure all radiator VALVES (the ones at the bottom of the radiator usually with a black round knob as in your first radiator picture) ARE OPEN ALL THE WAY.
After steam main venting is resolved (either you have good enough existing vents or you will need to add new ones) you can move on to balancing via the radiator vents. If you need advice on main venting rates and sizes of vents, then post the length and diameter of each steam main and someone here will advise you.
I doubt you need to move to two zones, and would not recommend you do so until you have shown you have adequate main venting and at least tried to balance the system with the radiator vents. As mentioned earilier, the vari-vents you have on some radiators are very fast and can easily unbalance the system if used on large radiators.
So main question right now is what about the steam main vents?0 -
My house is smaller than yours, but I have 3 rooms on the first floor and 6 on the second. Balancing isn't a problem. My bedroom typically only gets heat when the temp drops below 40 or so. The walk in closet rad is almost always hot all the way across due to the venting I have. Same floor rads within eyesight of one another and operate drastically different all due to venting. Trust me you can get some serious control over the system with proper vents. The worst case if you can't get it where you want it would be to install TRV's on the vents and you have room by room control over those rads. I would only do this if you can't balance it with typical means and this only helps with overheating rooms.
I think what is the problem is you keep having people look at your system that don't understand steam and giving you ideas that are (IMHO) a distraction from what really needs to happen. I haven't read anything you posted from them that makes much sense. In short they have been sending you on wild goose chases because they don't know how to fix it. You have gotten rock solid advice from this forum and as I see it you have 2 choices. Listen to the advice and get it fixed correctly or keep listen to the contractors you have and keep paying money to NOT have it fixed.
My honest opinion. I would call @EzzyT and have him come out. Knowing what I know about steam and contractors I would eat the entire service contract to get it done correctly. I am extremely frugal, but I wouldn't care about the lost money on the contract. How long is this contract for?2 -
If you have a contract for them to 'fix' up the system, take info from here and have them do the work you tell them to do. Not you following their advice, but in the reverse: they follow what you tell them you want done (them being your hands and legs and you are the brain).
First, vent your mains, then play with the balancing of the rads. There is absolutely no reason your radiators, all of them, can't be set to heat a certain way and satisfy the need of the space. Believe me, I've done it on a 10,000 sq. ft building with 2 large auditoriums, 3 zones, one of which is a space (posted pic before) which has 8 old single-pane windows and seems to be more windows than walls. This room keeps warm fine. The space is 38x61 ft, 15 ft ceilings, and about 500 edr of radiators, with 8 large single pane windows that are 9 ft 3" x 5 ft each. 3.5 walls are all outside walls (about 1/2 of one wall is facing inside the main building, the rest are all outside, uninsulated brick and windows), and with another auditorium above which is heated to 50F most of the week. Talk about the heat loss.
Trick is to 'nudge the steam' where you want it to go first.
First, down the main as fast as you can. You have 1 main, correct? That's easy peasy as you don't have to first balance 2+ mains against each other.
Vent the main with 1, 2, 3 big mouths. 3/4 tapping will vent 9.5 cf of air in 1 min at 3 oz. 3 big mouths will do the same (about), so that's the 1st step. If tapping is smaller, install the max venting for the given tapping. 1/8 vents 2.5 cf/m (one big mouth), 1/4 vents 4.8 cf/m (2 big mouths) at 3 oz (and more on higher pressures - which is irrelevant as psi is closer to 2-3 oz at startup with proper venting).
Then, if your first floor is still colder after venting the main, slow down the 2nd floor venting a smidgen and see what happens (slow down the hottest room first, then second hottest, etc). If pressure is building more than op press at, say .5 psi (8 oz), increase 1st floor venting a smidgen, but by gradual increase in venting rate: less venting on rads closest to boiler (length in pipe from boiler-to-riser and riser-to-rad), and more venting to rads farther from the boiler, OR to coldest room rads first. And so on. So you are in this way "nudging" steam from your 2nd floor HOT room (slower venting rate) to 1st floor COLD room (higher venting rate).
Keep in mind: every time you close off or slow down the radiator venting, that excess steam volume has to go somewhere. It can go to a) excess pressure buildup (super-wasteful and a no-no), or b) another radiator that's venting a bit faster (happy-face).
As a side note and to give you perspective of steam balancing I've accomplished just this past 2 weeks: I've managed to get the LAST RADIATOR on a very long main (150 ft), off a 50 ft sub-main rad riser (so 200 ft from the boiler), on a smallest of 3 zones to heat FIRST, and even sooner than the 1st rad closest to the boiler on a larger main. All was done by venting the small main with 3 big mouths, and slowing down venting on rads closest to the boiler, all for an even heat-rise in the entire building. I also have some 2 crazy long 'sub-mains' (rad risers) that are 50 and 80 ft from the "main" main, at which these rads sit. True, we also installed a low-fire option on the burner which now simmers the boiler at 4 oz of pressure after the initial build-up to about 9 oz, but only after the system is fully heated up and at edr capacity for all the rads.
You can do this easily - it'll be a bit time-consuming, but it's totally doable.
Milan1 -
That guy doesn't understand steam systems either. Those rooms each have different heat losses, because of their size and other conditions but that's why the rads are different sizes as well. The original installation took that into account and, unless someone along the way removed a number of rads, they typically emit more than enough heat to warm each area. Again, get the mains vented as quickly as possible, as has been suggested and then use vents on the rads that are sized to either allow air to vent a little quicker where you want more heat and slower on the rads/rooms where you need less heat. Also, make sure the system pressure is low (less than 1.5PSI). That will allow steam to move quickly.
Another thought, if your service contractor doesn't understand your heating system, you haven't lost anything if he voids the contract on that piece of equipment. You're ahead of the game to find a qualified steam Pro. Drop the heating system off of your annual contract and find a good Pro to resolve your heating system issues going forward. Much cheaper, in the long run.0
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