Steam Radiators only hot half way across

shmerls

Hello. We're new to home owning and an older one built in 1932.

Our heat system is steam converted to gas. Boiler is a Dunkirk about 8 a 10 yrs old.
We have a heat company we've hired to maintain and have a maintenance contract but it doesn't cover the rads.

PROBLEM: several rads only heat half way across leaving the end, where the vent is, completely cold as if the valve were fully closed, but on the few rads like this, the valves are fully open.

I assume from reading other posts here, we have a single pipe system? Perhaps you can tell from the attached picture.(The previous owner painted the rads red to emphasize to their kids they were hot. Cute)

From what I've read in this forum, problem can be the vent, the rad needing to be tilted. Is there any other advice?

Interestingly, the rads on the 3rd floor are all fully hot. Our problem is happening with the rads on the floor below, which is one floor about the boiler floor.

Fred

It is a one pipe system. That's a large radiator. Radiators don't always get hot all the way across. If properly balanced, they may only get hot all the way across in the coldest weather. Do they keep the house at the set temp? If so, they are doing what they should. What has the weather been like where you are? Make sure there is a little pitch towards the supply pipe so water can flow back and out of those radiators. Some pictures of the boiler, the piping above it and the vents on the ends of the mains, in the basement will also help us ensure there are no other obvious issues.

DetroitSteamHeat

I agree with Fred. It is very normal for the radiator not to be hot all the way across. Did you start paying attention to this because of an imbalance in temperature throughout the house? The color of the radiators, if you will be repainting them in the future, affect their heat output, FYI.

Fred

@DetroitSteamHeat said: "The color of the radiators, if you will be repainting them in the future, affect their heat output, FYI. "

Oddly enough there was a study that was referenced on this site, maybe a year or so ago, that indicated that color was not a factor in how a radiator heats. I think the affecting factor was paint that had metalic finishes.

shmerls

Hi Fred. Thanks. I' ve been reading like crazy here since my post. What an amazing forum site! Being brand new at steam heat, I'm a bit embarrassed in the sense that there are some REALLY smart people online. I'm so new. Ugh. It's 15º today in White Plains, NY. Brrr. The coldest day yet and I'm noticing that my fears maybe a little premature. The rads are starting to heat across the top, but not the bottoms. And the one attached is 30" but the one that I'm concerned about is 70! But hopefully this is good news. It has a Green Variavalve which I Googled and see you can vary the venting rate. Does this mean it acts like a 5,6,C,D or 1, built into one vent? And if so, given the many factors to consider in balancing one's home, is it "ok" to open the Variavalve and experiment? Or could I mess up the whole house. This Rad is on the 2nd floor which is the coldest. The 3rd floor is perfect. All our pipes are wrapped with fiber insulation, and now I know why (thanks to another thread here).

The boiler man did mention that we should consider getting a new thermo. We have an older Honeywell Chronotherm. I can't find a model # unfortunately.

Also unfortunately, the house is 4 floors with only one zone on floor 2. But the good news is that the previous owner was a contractor and spent a lot of time balancing the system and even told us when we bought, "don't touch the radiator settings!"

It's interesting that floor 3 (bedrooms) is heated nicely, but floor one even though the rads are mostly on, needs to be warmer and is actually just on the cold side, certainly compared to floor 3.

So in my newbie status, I'm wondering if just experimenting with the Variavalve and getting a modern thermostat might be a good start. But all the measuring you pros do and even know to do is awesome. Much praise to you guys.

Here are the pix you requested. BTW, all the exposed pipes through the basement and garage are insulated with new fiberglass wrap.

Thank you!

shmerls

Here are two more pix that might help.

The small Dunkirk you can just see the side of is for our water. So the large Dunkirk only goes to the rads.

Fred

Hi, @shmerls , Don't be at all embarrassed! We are all here to learn from each other and you will pick up the knowledge you need to get your system to perform the way you want, in no time.
Take each issue, one at a time and try to work through it. Most houses are over radiated with huge radiators, like you have in your house. Those are remnants of the old Coal fired boiler days. Some of those huge radiators may never get hot all the way across but that's fine as long as it keeps the house comfortable. The one tell tale issue you mentioned, that you can probably resolve fairly easily, is the radiator that gets hot across the top but the bottom is cold. Radiators are suppose to be vented slowly and Mains vented fast. Have you found any vents on the Mains, typically at the end of the mains? You need to make sure you have good main venting before you can really balance the radiators. See if you can find those main vents and take pictures of those and we can then decide if they are adequate or if you need more. Back to the issue you mentioned. Typically, anytime a radiator gets hot across the top only, or across the bottom only, that an indication that the venting on that radiator is too large. It allows the steam to race across the top or bottom of the radiator and not push the air out of the rest of the radiator before the vent closes. If that is an adjustable vent, dial it down one number at a time until the radiator heats evenly. IUf it is not adjustable, replace it with one that is, like a Hoffman 1A or an adjustable Maid-o-Mist or other brand. Buy a good one, not one from a big box store like Home Depot or Lowes. They are usually cheap imports. If you don't use an adjustable one, try a Hoffman #40. they are slow vents and usually work well.
Your boiler piping is interesting. it looks like you have a double equalizer. Not typical but I don't know that it will adversly affect the way it produces steam. Dunkirks are finiky and I'm sure others will weigh in on that piping but apparrently it is doing a reasonable job of getting steam throughout the system. Sounds like a little fine tuning of the radiator venting and maybe the main venting for now.

Jamie Hall

Don't worry, @shmerls , we all started at the bottom in this racket! And don't worry about the paint -- it's only metallic paints (bronze, aluminium, that sort of thing) which cause trouble.

I completely agree with @Fred -- you may find that adjusting the venting will cure any problems. What I would suggest, though, is two things: take it one or two radiators at a time, and record where you start in each case. Don't depend on you memory. That way, if the change doesn't improve things -- or make things worse! -- you can go back. Don't ask how I learned that...

There are any number of more modern thermostats -- I and a lot of other folks use the Honeywell VisionPro series, but there are others. I don't recommend any of the fancier internet thermostats at all. I also suggest that even with a newer thermostat that you not dial the temperature down much -- "setback". Steam systems (and a lot of hot water systems) don't play well with setbacks. All in all, the Chronotherm is probably just fine at least for the moment.

Fred

@shmerls , I take an earlier comment back! After relooking at your boiler, I see that the pipe I questioned as an equalizer is, in fact the second riser out of the side of the boiler. That is the way the boiler should plumbed. Not atypical at all. Just would have been better if thay had piped it into the Header at a 90 degree angle rather than 45 degrees so that all water that falls out of the steam would drop down the equalizer at the end of the header.

shmerls

Thanks guys. Luckily I assumed correctly to work with one radiator at a time. Since our 2nd floor is the problem floor, I started with that 70" monster, plus it has the Variavalve vent. It was set in dead center, and I assumed wrong, next and opened it to 3/4s before reading Fred's comments. So next I'll dial it down from center (I'm calling that 1/2 way) so I'll try 1/4 open.

[Blush] what's a "Main" and where does one find it? Them?

BTW: last night we dipped down to 2º and our 3rd floor was HOT, we forgot to turn down the Thermostat. But the 2nd floor doesn't perform as well as the 3rd.

Perhaps this will help:

I think part of the problem is even with the big radiator, I think the layout and number of radiators is not optimum, but I think adequate as long as I can max each one's performance. So let me list what we have:

Living room: I'm experimenting with this one first
Room = 17' x 34' (big!)
Rad = 70" x 25.5". VariaValve was on 50º open. Now at 25º
Heat = Top: 3/4s hot across. Bottom: cold.

Dinning Room:
Room = 13' x 15'
Rad = 39" x 26". Maid o Mist. Looks like a large vent hole and possibly bent. Please check close up picture.
Heat = Top: 1/2 hot across. Bottom: cold. Maid Valve. See pic

Kitchen:
In the 30s they allocated more room to the halls, and less in the rooms as opposed to today's design. Thus the kitchen is odd shaped and small for today's layout. It's an "L"
Room = See diagram
Rad = 19" x 26" Groton #C
Heat = Top: fully hot across. Bottom: Cold.

Small Bath off Kitchen and Foyer:
Room = 4.5' x 4'
Rad = wall mounted 13.5" x 28" - Groton #6
Heat = Top and Bottom: Fully hot across both.

Foyer:
Room = See diagram
Rad = 16" x 38" Variavalve fully open
Heat = Top: Hot fully across. Bottom: Cold

Thank you all again very much!
Steven

Fred

The Mains are the large pipes in the basement that all of you radiator supply pipes feed off of. You need to have those large pipes(mains) properly vented first, before you try to balabce the radiators. If there isn't adequate venting on those mains, that will cause the system to run for an extended time before steam gets to the radiators. The Main vents should be located either at the end of the Mains, after the last Radiator supply pipe or, in some cases on the return pipe that goes back to the boiler room. If you have them, take a picture and post it. If there are none, you will need to get them installed.

SteamCoffee

Nice looking radiator in the last pic, anyone know the brand? Thanks !

shmerls

Hi All. Sorry I've been quiet. I had to go out of town and just getting back into all this.

Re: Main Vents: I see 1 round gadgets that looks like it might be a Main Vent. It doesn't say "vent" on it though. See pix. I took a side shot again of the Boiler in case there's a component there that's important or missing.

Since we have rads on 3 floors, should there be a main for each floor and then should each main have it's own Main Vent?

There's only one thermostat which is on the 2nd floor. Since the 2nd floor is colder than the 3rd, and we spend most our time there during the week after work (kitchen, living, dining rooms) Up until bed time we have to push the temp to 72+ to force enough heat to the 2nd floor and then we turn the temp down at bed time otherwise the bedrooms on the 3rd floor are too hot. The 4th floor is the finished attic that we don't use often.

The 1st floor (small play room and laundry and boiler room) don't have any radiators, the heat pipes run along the ceiling. Most of the runs are well insulated with new fiberglass heat pipe insulation wraps. There are a few places where the previous owner didn't insulate to allow some heat to warm these rooms. Then I'll leave the boiler room door open to let heat out into the play room. Not much we can do about this I assume without adding radiators. I realize pipes on the ceiling is not ideal but that's how the place is set up and not our main concern right now.

I also thought it might be helpful to diagram how the heat feels to my hand on each radiator on the 2nd floor. Again, the radiators on floor 2 are not filling fully while the radiators on the 3rd floor seem to fill easily and fully.

Here are some pictures and diagrams.

The radiators are from the foyer which has to heat the foyer, part of the living and dining rooms and into the hall to the kitchen. A lot of work for a little radiator I would think.

Thanks again
Steven

Fred

We really should see the header and piping above the boiler as well. Depending on the original installation, you may or may not have a main for each floor. Floors do not necessarily equate to mains. Some of easch floor may be piped off of the mains you do have. I don't see a picture of the device you think is a main vent either. That would be helpful.
It is very likely you don't have enough main venting if you only see one and you have multiple mains. Each main should have venting and, depending on the size and length of each main, they may need multiple vents.
If your pictures are reasonable representations of the way your radiators feel, I would say the radiator vents are too large and letting the steam race across the radiators to the vent. Radiators should be vented slowly BUT, you need to have the Main venting correct, before you try to balance the radiators. It's a wasted effort otherwise.

Steamhead

That's not the main vent- it's the stack damper on the boiler.

You're looking for vents at the ends of the big steam pipes that run thru the basement, feeding the various smaller pipes that go to the radiators.

shmerls

The pix I took are all I see in the boiler room. Being so new to this, I'm not really sure what I'm looking for to shoot for this thread. What I think are mains travel through the 2 basement rooms and entire garage before heading upward. I've followed them from the boiler. All I see is insulated pipe. Can some one point me to a typical example of what and Importantantly where in relation to the boiler I should be looking for what. Thanks!

shmerls

Am I looking for gold components like these, albeit maybe not so many in one spot?

neilc

shmerls said:

Am I looking for gold components like these, albeit maybe not so many in one spot?

those, or others like that, are the main vents you are looking for,
they should be on each of your mains leaving your boiler,
how many mains have you identified ?

neilc

also,
did you find that vent assembly in your basement / house ?
or just a random, but excellent example of, picture?

Fred

shmerls said:

Am I looking for gold components like these, albeit maybe not so many in one spot?

Follow the Main(s) to the end, after the very last run-out pipe to a radiator. Somewhere after that, and before the main may drop down to a pipe, below the water line of the boiler, you should see a vent or vents that look like the ones in your picture or that may be round and copper or green (if Hoffmans) or some other shape, maybe chrome color, but they will all have a venting port/tip on the top. If you don't find them on the mains, continue to follow your returns back to the boiler room and see if any are on the returns. If you don't find any, that means you don't have any and need to get some installed if you can find a convenient place to install them, after the last radiator on that main. If you can't find a place, you probably will want to wait for the weather to break and have a Pro install them.

shmerls

I found them. Well, 2. One is a Hoffman #75, the other: Groton #1 V. They are located after pretty long pipe runs from the Boiler through the basement rooms into the unheated large garage (holds 3 cars) and then the pipes go up and also down into the ground. The Groton seems to be spitting on to the ceiling. Is this normal? If the run length is important, I can show you a pictorial of that.

Being that we have 3 floors with a number of radiators on each, should I be looking for a 3rd vent, assuming that each vent goes to a main that goes to a different floor?

I see a number of pipes that split off the mains in the garage and go up into the ceiling, but I only see what looks like two mains, the ones with the Groton and Hoffman.

Thanks again

nicholas bonham-carter

Good job finding the vents! I would guess that those vents are a little small for the apparent length of your steam mains.
We like to to vent the mains with low resistance, (back pressure), and the radiators with higher resistance. This will make sure that all of the mains fill with steam, before the risers to the radiators, thus enabling steam to arrive at all the radiators simultaneously.
There are some excellent steam books in the shop here which would give you more familiarity, and knowledge, so you can diagnose any problems you may have.--NBC

Fred

Measure the length of your mains (each one) from the boiler to those vents. It's pretty obvious you don't have enough main venting, given your comments about how those mains run, I'd say they are fairly long. They look like 2" or maybe 2.5" mains. Once your get the lengths of each main, post that here and we can suggest the number of vents you may need on each main. You may have to build an antler for multiple mains (like the one in the picture you posted) in order to add additional vents. The limitaion will be based on the venting capacity of the pipe/tapping your current vent is mounted to (both are 3/4"). That will accommodate several vents. Gorton #2's provide the most venting capacity but you will need at least 9" above the main to accommodate the vent and maybe a close nipple and Tee. It looks like you may be able to get that by using a shorter nipple that you currently have, out of the main.
Vents should not "spit" water. Is it actually spitting or is that drywall just dirty from air being blown out of the mains? Once you get the Main venting right, you can then proceed to balancing the radiators with proper vents. Right now they are doing a lot of the work the main vents should be doing.

shmerls

I read an article from where I found the pic I posted. He's in Ohio and seems to be a bnot maximizes specialist and you are saying, I think, exactly what he is.

Now I'm getting excited! This is really fascinating art/science. He mentioned that with coal boilers stayed on most the time as opposed to today's gas and oil burners. Since coal burners didnt shut down, a vacuum wasn't created sucking air in which is the whole issue today, to get the air out ASAP since air and steam don't mix and the quicker the steam can flow, the faster your area can reach desired temp and the boiler can shut down.

I totally see now how my system is over working and staying on probably way longer than it needs to.

I'm in bed so can measure till tomorrow after work, but I'm so excited to learn this and can't wait to start venting properly and getting control of this.

Interestingly, we bought this house from a contractor who lived her pe 20 years. He was the 2nd owner. The 1st was the architect who built 11 other homes like this: rock walls and Tera Cota roofs. Gorgeous.

But a lot of work that I really wasn't aware or prepared for. Well, today is our 1 year anniversary here and because of this forum, really, I now see that owning a vintage home is a real privilege and requires special care and attention which is no longer a pain in the neck to me!

I see it as an amazing building that I get to learn about and perfect how to best care and maximize how it runs.

I came here with a problem that was over my head. Now I see it as a fantastic vintage Americana learning experience.

What a turn around for me! I can't thank you guys enough.

Good night
Steven

shmerls

Here's the website I mentioned. Does this guy know his stuff?

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/p/415/maximizing-your-venting

Fred

Gerry Gill is in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm in Dayton, Ohio. Gerry REALLY knows his stuff and frequents this site often, sharing his knowledge!

shmerls

Terribly sorry about my delay. We've had tons of work things in my way. Here are the measurements you requested:

Out of the boiler there's a horizontal large pipe (do you perhaps call it a manifold?) that feeds what seems to be the only 2 main pipes that carry steam to the house.

Both mains exit the small boiler room and eventually end up in the unheated garage with various 2" pipes going up to the upper floors.

Main 1: totals 30' and has five 2" pipes going to the upper floors through the ceiling and a Groton #1 at the end before the main turns down toward the ground.

Main 2: totals 70' and has Four 2" pipes going to the upper floors through the ceiling with a Hoffman #75 (15 lbs.) at the end before turning downward toward the ground. I note that this Vent has a pretty large hole at the cylinder

The Boiler Room and these Mains are on the first floor/basement. Most of the pipes are covered with new fiberglass wrap except for a few sections which I assume the previous owner left off on purpose to let some heat get into the basement rooms the Mains pass (music room, laundry room, garage) before going down into the ground in the garage.

There only seems to be 2 Main Vents that I found both at the end of the Main pipe runs in the garage, right before the Mains turn down into the ground. Both Main Vents appear to be in new condition, clean and in good looking order. I can't know if they are functioning 100% with my limited knowledge at this point.

The House: from the Mains in the garage, the 2" pipes go to a 2nd, 3rd and 4th attic floor where there are:

1st Floor (Boiler, Mains, family, laundry, garage): no radiators
2nd Floor (kitchen, liv, dinning, family): 5 radiators
3rd Floor (3 bedrooms, study, 2 baths): 7 radiators
4th Floor (finished attic): 1 small 21" wide x 16" high radiator with Groton #C for the entire room, which is a pretty big room and seems and feels very under heated.

I have to get to work and will measure this room when I get home if you need.

I can't thank you all enough of your time and attention. What a fantastic lesson here. I'm learning the honor of owning and maintaining an older home. It is no longer a chore! I find this exciting and thank you all kindly.
Steven

Fred

@shmerls , that 30 Main, with the Gorton #1 on it should have an additional Gorton #2 added to it. You can build a small antler, using a Tee and a couple nipples to build the antler and then install it at that same location. The 70 ft. Main with the Hoffman #75, actually should have about 3 Gorton #2 added to that Hoffman #75. The Gorton #2's have about half the venting capacity of a Gorton #2 but they do tend to open faster, after a heating cycle so it is good to keep that on there. Build an antler for that location as well. It looks like you have 3/4" tappings in the Mains so you have the capacity to vent that number of vents on one antler at each location. After you install the additional main vents, try to rebalance your radiators using the radiator vents. You may have to play around with it for a while to get them to all heat as evenly as possible. If you still have issues getting the third and forth floors to heat, try a radiator vent that is a little faster than those on the second floor being careful not to vent those radiators too fast or the steam may race across the top or bottom of the radiator, heating only a small portion of the radiator before closing the radiator vent. If that happens and you can't get those radiators to properly heat, consider adding a vent somewhere at the top of those risers before the radiator or on the radiator (on the same side that the supply pipe is on and put a smaller vent back on the opposite side of the radiator. That will aid in venting the air out of those tall risers.

shmerls

Hello Fred. In looking at my mains and your comments I wanted to post a few more pictures. First off, now that it's getting to be spring, when you do this kind of work, I assume you must turn off the boiler. Are there any other steps I need to do before adding Main Vents?

First I'm posting the Groton Main and it does seem that a Tee is the obvious route to build the antler. There is a Groton #1 there now. Is it possible for you advise what Vents and how many I should add here?

On the Hoffman #75 Main, you can see that the installer had to put the Hoffman into the ceiling and built a copper housing for it, I assume in case it were to spray? I'm assuming that the arm that is just in front of the Hoffman that has the valve is for another radiator or run off and not to be used for Venting?

So you are suggesting an antler there in order to add 3 Groton #2's. Does it matter the order of the Vents in the antler chain? Like: Hoffman first, then Grotons? or visa versa? Also note there's a plug at the far end of this Main run (see the 4th picture). I assume that's for another radiator, and not a Vent?

If I can find shorter piping, is it desirable to lower the Hoffman so it isn't protruding into the ceiling?

And last, is there a way to know which of these mains send steam to which floor(s)? And is the reason you are suggesting the Vents and the number of them based on what's there now and/or the length of the Mains?

Since we have 3 floors above the basement and there are only radiators on floors 2,3,4 . How does one know which of these 2 Mains services 2, 3, or 4?

Fred

@shmerls That radiator valve, on that pipe actually should be taken off and the pipe capped. You don't want a situation where someone opens that valve or the valve fails. Steam burns and that can be dangerous. You can use the locations where you currently have vents or you can use any abandoned radiator run-out pipes if they are at the end of the main, after the last radiator run out that actually has a radiator attached to it. Your radiator vents will actually do the venting for both the radiator and the run-out that feeds it. The main vents will vent the Mains so, from that perspective, it really doesn't matter which floor they feed (in all probability each main feeds radiators on more than one floor). You will need to balance the various radiators when you get the main vents the way you want it. Use Gerry Gills venting documents, that you reference above. He knows his business.
Turn the power off to the boiler when installing vents so that there is no chance that it might fire up while you have a pipe open. You are better off having the vents mounted up on a pipe, like they are so that the vents don't get a lot of dirt blown into them as the steam evacuates the air from the mains.
You can add the vents in any sequence on the antler. They will all close when steam hits them.
I'm sure others will add their comments as well.

shmerls

Many thanks Fred. I'm pretty handy and have lots of tools but have never done this kind of work before. Building the antlers so vents can be added seems very straight ahead. Getting the right Mains Vents seems to be the biggest challenge, but you've provided that data, so I just need to get the the plumbing store and buy some pipe, OR… do you think a specialist is a smart move? It seems unnecessary. OH.. could you comment on how the Hoffman protrudes into my ceiling and if I should try to lower it? Or is it fine that way and then I just have to build an antler that doesn't add height since there doesn't appear to be much room left.

Fred

The way it goes into the ceiling is fine. It is pretty straight forward. You can do this easily.

shmerls

Hi All. The weather in NY has just heated up. It's already 54º at 7:45am and it's forecasted to get into the 60s in the next 5 days. Is it possible to vent and balance in warm weather when your in-house temp is higher than the thermo will turn on the boiler?

Fred

There are venting models that approximate the size of radiator vents based on the size of the radiator and the distance (amount of pipe run-out to the radiator) but the only real way I know of to get it fine tuned is trial and trial after watching each readiator during a heating cycle. Thats what makes adjustable radiator vents so nice IMO. You can change them or change out the orifice easily and quickly.

shmerls

Fred, all this info is very fascinating. So speaking of models you mention, what resource(s) do you use to determine the make, quantity and vent size of vents you recommended?

And now that the weather is in the 60s, to test my system, just turn the thermostat Up to 65 or more?

shmerls

Fred, I've lost the link to the following info I'll mention and wonder if you have input?

1. It was either on Gerry Gill's site or in a different thread here, it mentioned that installing Vents at both ends of the Mains was a good idea.

The point made was that venting in both places allowed the Main's system to breathe better. Does this sound right? If so would you have input if this concept is pertinent to my set up and if so, which Vents and how many would I install at the beginning of my Mains?

2. Lastly, on Gerry's site he discusses his Main Vent preferences and over all likes the Groton #2. He also likes the Hoffman #75, but states:

"The Hoffman 75 main vent is a very well made vent. Its construction is like a Cadillac. But for some reason its a rather poor venting vent. At one ounce of pressure it passes .5 cubic feet of air per minute."

That said, does it make sense to change my Hoffman #75 to a Groton? If yes, instead of your original recommendation (use my existing Hoffman #75, adding a Groton #2) would it be better to replace the Hoffan and install: 2 Groton #2s?

Or perhaps a different configuration if 1 Groton #2 isn't a direct replacement for 1 Hoffman #75?

Thanks!

shmerls

PS. I found the shop you mentioned Fred and got these items, which seem to be a wealth of reference knowledge to add to what I've learned in this thread! Thanks everyone!

"Balancing Steam Systems Using a Vent-Capacity Chart"
by Gerry Gill and Steve Pajek (PDF)

"Greening Steam How to Bring 19th-Century Heating Systems into the 21st Century (and save lots of green!)"
by Dan Holohan

"We Got Steam Heat! - A Homeowner's Guide to Peaceful Coexistence"
by Dan Holohan

Support HeatingHelp.com (donation)

Fred

@shmerls , glad you found the link. To your question regarding adding vents at the beginning of a main, there is no value in doing that. Those vents would close immediately as steam would hit them and close them before any air would be evacuated from a Main. Main vents should be located somewhere after the last radiator run-out on each main.

shmerls

Hello all.

It's certainly been for us a disruptive ride since we last focused on floor balancing using your amazing input. Last year we ran out of Winter. Then i had lowerback & knee surgery that's still healing, add in my 90 year Mom got dbl pneumonia and we almost lost her but thankfully we're assisting daily at the hospital in her healing (vs. surviving).

My wife and I finally are able to focus change out the existing inefficient useless electric baseboard heat to a water baseboard system (after thoroughly exploring, natural gas stoves and Misubishi mini split systems) for our once outdoor 18' x 22' porch that the previously owners installed windows on 3 of the 4 walls that are solid stone with no insulation, so there's lots of heat loss and very little heat retention.

In getting the Family Room quote, we asked for another quote to balance the main 1st and bedroom 2nd floors that we've been discussing here... just in case we could afford it given all else that's been distracting us on our full plates.

Interestingly, in looking at the Family Room water baseboard upgrade, when they did their 2 heat loss studies on the Family Room and house, they noted in the house, our steam boiler (250,000 BTUs) is bigger than our steam use needs by about 100k BTUs.

The existing Dunkirk 30,000 BTU water boiler needs to upgrade to around 50k BTU to handle our potable water needs, water to the new Family Room baseboards and continued water to the existing guest apartment baseboard.

Their idea was to change all house rad vents to adjustable, balance each rad and floor and then balance the main floor with the 2nd bedroom floor.

They realized when they saw the thermostat, that it's in a cold wrong place and thus a big cause of the floor imbalance making the 2nd floor bedrooms way too hot, while the main floor is always way too cold.

They like multiple Mains venting by the way, but are concerned that the wrong thermostat placement would counter the positive effects of adding additional Main vents.

Plus they were concerned that a Mains venting upgrade might not trickle down to balancing issues with individual imbalanced rads that could be addressed with the flexibility of upgrading to adjustable vents on all rads.

And they can always add multiple vents to the Mains to adjust the system globally floor to floor if the thermostat repositioning (wireless, not WiFi) doesn't nail it.

Also, our gas meter is just about maxed out, so upgrading the water boiler from 30K, to 50k BTUs would require a gas meter capacity upgrade.

Their thinking is since our steam boiler output is larger than our actual use, after balancing all the rads on each floor and then balancing the 2 floors, they could sync the steam boiler BTU output with our BTU use (150,000 BTUs) by turning off of the 2 steam boiler burners, which will also save us by using less gas, and eliminate the gas meter upgrade all together.

SUMMARY: there are 2 separate jobs now that when designed and performed together will impact on each other in a good way to set up our systems to use just what we need, & thus save on useage and eliminate a costly gas meter upgrade. Plus they will reposition thermostat elsewhere on the Main floor as a means to have the steam boiler come on and heat the 2 floors in sync properly. And if the thermostat reposition doesn't fix the issue, they can add multiple vents to the Mains as you've been instructing me earlier in this thread.

Does anyone see any flaws or problems in the approach I've hopefully properly documented here?

I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and wishing everyone all good things for the coming year!

Thanks very much as always,
Steven

KC_Jones

The thermostat placement has nothing to do with balance. If the thermostat is in a cold area and the rads were balanced the whole house would overheat.

Balancing must start with proper main venting. Get the mains vented properly then balance the rads. Personally I would save moving the thermostat as a last resort if the whole house seems to warm after balancing.

Removing burners from the steam boiler, did they call the manufacturer about this for approval? I'd bet money they didn't and if they did the manufacturer would say no. It's a bad idea. Downfiring the boiler by tuning the gas valve is one thing removing burners is something else.

If you have that much reserve in the steam boiler you should just do a hot water loop off of that boiler instead of trying to downfire and then add another boiler. Their plan actually doesn't make sense to me. With the BTU capacity you have you don't need another boiler.

From what you wrote I fear your contractor doesn't understand what they are doing not do they know what they are talking about. Just the comments about venting make me think this. Main venting is an absolute first step.

nicholas bonham-carter

I also agree with using a hot water loop from your steam boiler, instead of installing a second hot water boiler. Make sure that the radiators you use on this circuit will handle the heat loss of its area.
Try some big mouth vents in place of the Gorton for best effect.--NBC