Steam Radiators only hot half way across

shmerls

Such great advise. Not in order… @KC_Jones (a Greatful Dead reference?), you nailed it. We are indeed getting different and too many opinions, each different from the previous and all different from here.

However, unlike the locals we've spoken to, you all seem to be on the same page on how to solve this. MAINS FIRST!

Yesterday was an attempt to stay within our maintenance contract and the rep seemed so logical that our first floor being made up of larger rooms and fewer rads than floor 2, with more BTU loss, it seemed natural that the 2nd floor with smaller rooms, more rads and less windows (BTU loss) would mean the first floor is simply bigger and harder to heat. That seems logical. Right? And maybe it's even accurate, and exactly the issue we need to fix. Is that right perhaps? But again, start with the Mains.

@Gary Smith, we have 2 mains, not one and a single pipe system. I've read through this long thread and pulled the pix of the 2 mains in the garage along with my measurements one of you asked for last year which I'll repost here as I think these are the the most pertinent info and thus no one here needs to go hunting backwards:

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Both mains exit the boiler room and end up in the unheated garage with various 2" pipes going up to the upper floors.

Main 1: totals 30' and has five 2" pipes going to the upper floors and has a Groton #1 at the end before that main turns downward back to the boiler.

Main 2: totals 70' and has Four 2" pipes going to the upper floors with a Hoffman #75 (15 lbs.) at the end. I note that this Vent has a pretty large hole at the cylinder.

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Fred wrote: @shmerls, that 30' Main, with the Gorton #1 on it should have an additional Gorton #2 added to it. You can build a small antler, using a Tee and a couple nipples to build the antler and then install it at that same location.

The 70 ft. Main with the Hoffman #75, actually should have about 3 Gorton #2 added to that Hoffman #75. The Gorton #2's have about half the venting capacity of a Gorton #2, but they do tend to open faster after a heating cycle, so it is good to keep that on there.

(Fred, "that" means the Hoffman?)

Build an antler for that location as well. It looks like you have 3/4" tappings in the Mains so you have the capacity to vent that number of vents on one antler at each location.

After you install the additional main vents, try to rebalance your radiators using the radiator vents. You may have to play around with it for a while to get them to all heat as evenly as possible.
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@Fred, after adding the vents to the Mains, how do I determine what size and type of vent to use on the actual rads?
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The B&J "big mouth" main vents are fantastic, made by a gentlemen @Sailah who is here on the forum often. They vent Rated at 3.6 CFM @ 3 ozs, faster than a Gorton #2, which is faster than a Gorton #1, which is faster than a Hoffman 75.

here is some info:
forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/159452/barnes-jones-big-mouth-vent

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MAIN 1ST FLOOR - (5 Rads):

Foyer: - 16.5" Wide x 35" Tall, Varivalve - 100% open.
Living Room: - 68.75" Wide x 23" Tall, Varivalve - 95% closed.
Dinning Room: - 38.5" Wide x 22.5" Tall, Maid-o-Mist, vent size looks like "D".
Kitchen: - 19" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "C".
Guest 1/2 Bath: - 12.5" Wide x 28" Tall, Gorton "6".

BEDROOM 2ND FLOOR - (8 rads):

Master Bedroom: - 39" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "4".
Master Bath: - 36.5" Wide x 17" Tall, Varivalve - 95% closed.
Hallway: - 28.75" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "5".
Bedroom 2: - 31.25" Wide x 23" Tall, Varivalve - 80% closed.
Bedroom 2 Bath: - 13.75" Wide x 22.5" Tall, Varivalve - 50% Open.
Bedroom 3: - 16.5" Wide x 22.5" Tall, Gorton "C".
Bedroom 3 Bath: - 16.25" Wide x 16.5" Tall, Varivalve - 50% Open.
Home Office: - 36.25" Wide x 23" Tall, Gorton "D".

TOTAL MAIN FLOOR RADS = 8
TOTAL 2ND FLOOR RADS = 5
GRAND TOTAL RADS BOTH FLOORS = 13
TOTAL GORTON VENTS = 7
TOTAL VARIAVALVES = 6
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Abracadara Wrote:
C&D vents are way too big for those radiators, and even the 6 is too big for the bath vent. I don't like using varivalves as they are finicky at lower settings and also don't contain a float. Quickly venting a radiator will cause steam to short circuit the radiator and it won't properly heat up.

Start by venting everything with either a 4 for the smaller rads or 5 for the larger ones and make sure your mains are vented very well.
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@MilanD: You mention overshoot and setting the Tstat for steam (I did) and then:

"So, whatever new tstat is and wherever location of the new tstat is, make sure it's set for steam, or 1 cycle per hour. Better vented and shorter systems can get away with 2 cycles."
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The Tstat our maintenance company replaced, is very basic Honeywell and doesn't have ability to set cycles, so I assume I need to replace with a better one like the TH8000 MilanD mentioned? http://a.co/2Z4yvWV
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@EzzyT. Sorry, I missed your post totally. I've been taking care of my folks and now finally able to focus. Am I allowed to give you my phone, or me yours so we can talk? I assume if we hire you, my antler building days will be over and you'd do this for the Mains and then move to the rads and change the vents as needed?

Thanks!
Steven

Gsmith

I think the shortest path to a solution and probably in the long run the least costly is to hire a pro like @EzzyT of another from the contractors section of this website.

If you cannot or decide not to, then post back the diameter of the two steam mains (I didn't see the diameter of the 30' and 70' mains in prior posts), and we can take it step by step, but it will be easier and you will learn quite a lot if you get a pro on-site.

MilanD

@shmerls

The tstat they gave you is same as the th8000 model, minus wifi/touchscreen. The th8000 model also doesn't have the cycle 2 setting. It has 1 (steam), 3 etc... 3 may work on a well vented system with short mains. On mine it didn't - we have 180 ft mains plus a few loooong radiator risers - it didn't have time to push steam to all the places it needed to go. On shorter runs it may... You can try changing the settings on "heating rate cycle" on your tstat to 3 (for Hot Water, High Efficiency Furnace) and see what happens.

I missed there was 2 mains, sorry. So, 2 mains have to be in balance first. This can be done as a 'close enough' with same number and type of vents on both of them. 40 ft difference in length at 2" of pipe is 0.92 cf of air. With a big mouth on each end, you will vent 30' main in 22 seconds and 70' main 49 seconds later, so in about a minute. That's close enough, or make an antler and keep the vent you currently have next to the big mouth on the longer main. Steam will now prefer the longer main and both should get steam at their end in approx same time.

Then on to what was explained earlier. I didn't calculate EDR of all your rads. Size alone is not enough: is it column of tube radiator, etc. Here's the link - you can calculate them yourself quite easily:

http://www.smithfieldsupply.com/company_info/forms/radiatorest.pdf

I am quite sure you have enough EDR with each radiator for the heat loss. Long time ago, they wouldn't miscalculate this, plus on low simmer coal the radiation would be quite sufficient. If anything, it the system would be oversized in the wake of Spanish Flu, to allow heating while windows are cracked open. What great times...

Fred

@Fred, after adding the vents to the Mains, how do I determine what size and type of vent to use on the actual rads?
@shmerls , The best option is to get some of these. They are adjustable and each radiator can be adjusted to the needs of the room. Getting the system fine tuned may take several adjustments but if you stick with it, it will happen!
http://www.hvacrsupplynow.com/VENT-RITE-1-STEAM-AIR-VALVES-ADJUSTABLE_p_1787.html

shmerls

@Gary Smith et al. Totally Agree. I missed Ezzy's post and also KC_Jones' repost of Ezzy's, and found him on Google and just had a great talk. He's gonna read this post as it's all here, lotta legwork. And call me later. Thanks for your recommendation guys. Here's to balance!

Gsmith

Please post back after you get it resolved, we all learn from others experiences.

shmerls

Definitely. Thanks everyone!

shmerls

Hi all.

Ezzy was here today and took all needed measurements and pictures and went thru the house to learn all it's intricacies and possibilities. There is so much that I couldn't begin to communicate to you all here that only one can know who "knows" and who is on site to see what's what. Ezzy is an amazing person and really cares about the art and science of vintage home heating. We now feel like we live in a very special home and are care takers of this very special heating system. Very special! We're excited to get his analyses on heat loss and recommendations on ways to balance our floors and next how to heat our unheated family room. Thanks to you for recommending him. All the best to you all.

Best,
Steven

Fred

That's great! He is excellent and all the feedback is always very, very positive. just look at his install pictures. They speak for themselves. He will do right by you! Keep us posted.

shmerls

We hired Ezzy to install heat to our family room. He has been a pleasure to work with in doing all the pre-analysis and start 3/1. We also asked him to possibly balance our main first floor and 2nd bedroom floor. In addition to re-venting the mains in the garage, like our heating company's analysis, he felt after the mains were done, he would also need to re-vent some or all each rad. Plus he found some issues with the boiler he wanted to improve. We unfortunately we can't afford right now to do both jobs, so we went with the more important one: heating the family room so we can use it during the cold months.

Now that it's been pointed out that the rad vents need to be changed, this goes beyond the discussions we've had here so I'm not sure if I have the ability to follow the direction I received here.

Ezzy is very understanding of our finances and OK with me working on the floor balancing myself. I will talk with him about his thoughts on whether I could do all that needs doing. If it's just a matter of installing different vents on the rads, and building antlers for additional vents on our 2 mains, that's easy. If the boiler needs to be modified, that's probably more than I "should" handle. But perhaps we can do a hybrid where I do the simple vent and antler building and we add into his work order upgrading the steam boiler.

Ezzy's analysis and invoice input was extremely thorough. We know exactly what he's set to do and even why! Fred and others, you were indeed correct that he's great. A pleasure to work with. Knowledgeable, friendly and concerned about our needs and dealing with a vintage home that we want to upgrade but keep looking style wise how it was built back in the 30's.

Thanks to you for your recommendation.

To be continued.

Fred

Thanks for the follow up!

shmerls

Hi All.

Here's Phase 1 of the prep to heat our Family Room (FR). We hired Ezzy per the feedback we got from you and he's really great. A cross between a scientist and artist as you'll see in the pictures. The plan is for Ezzy to install 4 water rads, 2 per wall, in our un-heated FR, which he's figured a way to use our existing smaller water boiler without having to buy a larger water boiler or increase gas usage, which would cause us to need to upgrade our gas meter.

Phase 1 is completed in the boiler room. Starting 4/7, Ezzy will run the pipes from the boiler room thru the garage and apartment under the FR and then up into the FR into the 4 rads.

We have 3 walls capable of where the rads could go, but one of these walls is blocked by shelves, so we decided to leave this wall as is and install 2 rads per the other 2 walls. His design is to use our water boiler with a Priority system with the call for potable water having priority over rad heat from the FR and also from the Apartment water rads.

*SEE NOTE ON BOILER UPGRADE BELOW:

The challenge with this room is that there is no installation, only 2 foot rock and large old 2 pane glass that probably isn't holding out the cold, or keeping the heat in. Some day we'll upgrade the windows.

From Ezzy's heat/loss analysis, the 4 rads on 2 of the 3 exposed walls will be more than enough heat to warm the room as long as we keep the FR slightly heated 24/7 when we want to use the room, we're not heating from what would be the outside temperature, meaning we'll keep the FR at around 60º when not in use.

Crossing Threads: the main floor and bedroom floor above are still out of balance in a one zone, single rad set up for the Steam Boiler. I'm going to change the vents starting with the Mains in the garage, and then change the vents in the 18 rads in the main and bedroom floor and then have Ezzy check my work and then do some upgrading of the pipes to the Steam Boiler and at that time.

*NOTE: The plan here is to use the condensate to heat the FR which Ezzy calculates is enough to reconfigure the Priority set up for the Potable and Heat Water demands so that our small water boiler will only heat the potable water, and the condensate from the Steam Boiler will only heat the rads in the Apartment and FR. So we don't have the water boiler having to try to cater to both needs/demands.

I thought you'd all like to see the prep work Ezzy has done in the boiler room thus far making ready for the FR rads.

Ezzy is quite a talented HVAC expert and we can't thank you all enough for recommending him. You can recommend him highly to those in our East Cost area.



















Thanks again everyone. Next is up to me to built the Mains antlers and replace the individual rad vents on floors 1 and 2.

I'll follow up with more comments and pictures as we get into Phase 2.

Thanks everyone.

Regards,
Steven (and Ann)

shmerls

Ezzy has completed Phase 1, which concentrates on re-piping the water boiler, which heats the potable water in our home and separate Apartment built into the house structure and also the baseboard heat to the Apartment (we rent thru Airbnb).

The water boiler will also heat the water rads in the Family Room (FR). To do this, Ezzy created a Priority System so that the Potable water demands take priority over the water baseboard demand. This will change later in Phase 3.

With Phase 1 now completed, Ezzy will start Phase 2 and run the hot water pipes from the Water Boiler to the FR. Start date 4/7.

Phase 3: If you might remember, we also have a heat balance problem in our home between our main floor that has large open rooms and our 2nd floor with smaller bed rooms.

Ezzy has agreed to give me the vent sizes so I can build the 2 Mains antlers in our garage, and then I will swap out the vents on our 18 rads on floors 1 and 2. He will check and analyze my work and then re-pipe the Steam Boiler because he found some configuration issues needing to be improved and so he can also use the steam condensate to heat the Apartment and FR water baseboards.

Once this is accomplished, he will change the water boiler priority configuration system so it only heats the potable water and the steam boiler condensate will only heat the Apartment and FR water baseboards, which will eliminate the Water Boiler Priority system so we won't have the Water Boiler having to deciding to heat the potable or room heat water. This will be complete the Phase 3 and the entire project.

Here are pictures of the boiler room for Phase 1 showing off Ezzy's science meets art design work. Very impressive. I hope the copper doesn't oxidize too soon

















He certainly does exceptional work. We're looking forward to Phase 2 and the Rad and Mains vent installation and then Phase 3:, the finalization of the floor balancing and specialization of the Steam Boiler Condensate Water Rad Heating and Water Boiler Potable Water heating, and dismantling the current Water Boiler Priority System, even though it works very well, but if there are 3 showers demanding heat in the Winter when the Apartment water rads would be all requesting heated water simultaneously, this would be a heat demand we''ll be able to bypass after Phase 3. Make sense? Thanks again for Ezzy!

shmerls

Ezzy is installing 4 rads into our family room and has 2 installed so far and thought I'd show you the work he and David have done so far. Very clean and well done: