Steam heat is amazing...

Fred

@Gordy, don't feel bad! I get a "Disagree" from a poster for just about everything. I suspect even, when that poster doesn't disagree. It's the price we pay for having an opinion and maybe for sharing it with those who like to think their opinion is the only one that counts. At least ttekushan's view point is thoughtful, meaningful and not intended to be vindictive. In this case, He simply seems to disagree with what was said.

Jamie Hall

This has been -- and continues to be -- a fascinating thread. I thought it might be... @ttekushan 's remarks are right on the money regarding green and carbon footprint though, however inconvenient that truth may be (to coin a phrase?). Overall environmental impacts -- from cradle to grave -- are difficult to quantify, though by no means impossible, but that's a whole different discussion -- and one which is usually not particularly productive, as almost everyone sees part of the picture (with great enthusiasm) but very few seem to be able (or willing?) to put the whole picture together.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

This has been -- and continues to be -- a fascinating thread. I thought it might be... @ttekushan 's remarks are right on the money regarding green and carbon footprint though, however inconvenient that truth may be (to coin a phrase?). Overall environmental impacts -- from cradle to grave -- are difficult to quantify, though by no means impossible, but that's a whole different discussion -- and one which is usually not particularly productive, as almost everyone sees part of the picture (with great enthusiasm) but very few seem to be able (or willing?) to put the whole picture together.

If you want to talk about what's green and has a small environmental impact we need to talk about monitor top refrigerators.

MarkS

Coming in to this thread a bit late, but I wanted to address something Mark Eatherton said earlier:

Mark Eatherton said:

If a person were to take,say a Burnham MPO, and place a nice chain mail burner assembly with a neg-reg gas train on the combustion chamber, AND place a sensor in the center of the steam drum to sense temperature instead of pressure (archaic method of control), AND return leg AND the OSA, and program its operation to modulate around a floating steam set point temperature (rather narrow range, understood) that you would then have a modulating steam boiler with a nearly infinite modulating range. The ultimate in efficiency might then be achievable with significant energy reduction potentials as it pertains to low pressure steam applications.

Mark, in the spirit of civil discourse, can you explain your position that pressure is an archaic form of control? What advantage do you see with using temperature as the controlling variable rather than pressure in your example? I ask as one with 30+ years of experience designing control systems for industrial processes. Pressure, temperature, flow, pH, conductivity, etc. are all valid sources for process control. Which one you use depends on what you can measure, how accurately you can measure it, and the rate of response of the measurement.

I've no doubt your temperature control strategy could work for systems running above 1/2 psi. There's almost a 10 deg F span of control between 0 and 3 psi. But when you get into near-vapor pressures that guys like myself and @ChrisJ are running, that span narrows considerably, and there I think pressure rules the day.

Case in point: A Midco LNB modulating burner has been running on my steamer for almost 3 years. It modulates on pressure, currently controlling to 0.5 inches of water column at the boiler. The burner modulates from its high fire of 240 MBH down to around 150 MBH to maintain that pressure. An OSA sensor feeds an outdoor reset algorithm that adjusts burner run time and maintains indoor temperature within 0.7 degree F.

21st century automation on a 19th century heating system. Was it expensive? Yes. Will I see a return on the investment? Eventually, but that wasn't as important as saving fuel, reducing emissions, and improving indoor comfort. Now, is this system as efficient as a mod-con? Of course not. But I dare say it's as efficient as it can be. For many of us who obsess over our steam systems, that's the whole point.

Mark N

Exactly how efficient my steam system is, I have no idea. What I do know is how much is cost me to operate. I've been tracking my gas usage since I converted from oil to gas in Dec. 2008. I track my usage monthly by my utility bill and also by the year. From 12/12/14 to 12/15/15 my total gas usage was 1,145.092 therms at a total cost of $787.74. My usage for heat was 804.064 therms at a cost of $553.14. From my own experiences my system is inexpensive to operate and keeps the house very comfortable. I don't use set back and the thermostat is left at 70 from November till April. My boiler is a Burnham IN-4 and I'm located in Central NJ.

Kjmass1

Mark N said:

Exactly how efficient my steam system is, I have no idea. What I do know is how much is cost me to operate. I've been tracking my gas usage since I converted from oil to gas in Dec. 2008. I track my usage monthly by my utility bill and also by the year. From 12/12/14 to 12/15/15 my total gas usage was 1,145.092 therms at a total cost of $787.74. My usage for heat was 804.064 therms at a cost of $553.14. From my own experiences my system is inexpensive to operate and keeps the house very comfortable. I don't use set back and the thermostat is left at 70 from November till April. My boiler is a Burnham IN-4 and I'm located in Central NJ.

Wow your gas is cheap in NJ. I pay $1.25+ per therm in MA last year.

Gordy

Gordy said:

So @ttekushan by you giving me a disagree I must have offended you. That's fine the taunting started on the steam side with efficiencies. If you go back to the beginning.

Nothing's free. Bottom line.

To each there own. I do not dislike steam, and mean no disrespect. Some times just like to have fun. I think steam is quite amazing even outside the heating aspect.

ttekushan_3

@MarkS , @Mark Eatherton,
Greetings: I think pressure is a legitimate and perhaps a more sensitive measure of what's going on in the steam chest of a boiler, assuming it's all steam and no air. There won't be any superheat. Being intimately familiar with a system with a pair of full modulation steamers (5:1 turndown), a high CFM unit heater turning on somewhere or another will show up as an uptick in one or another of the Honeywell Modutrol motors controlling each burner. We have 250 boiler HP available at full power and even when the pair are cruising around 3:1 or lower, a 350,000 BTU unit heater turning on the blower will have a visible effect on whichever burner is closest to the next step up in firing. Invariably one motor arm will move a few degrees higher. This happens in under a minute, the physical distance from the boiler room being a few hundred feet away.

Most important is what we do with those measures.

BTW, @Mark Eatherton I hope things are well at the RPA et al. Some of vaporheads really appreciate what you do.

@MarkS, I don't know what rock I've been hiding under to have missed the most salient details, but the ECOSteam looks very intriguing for a current project. I will read more about during my next night of insomnia. Which should be in the next day or two.

@ChrisJ , the description of standing cast iron radiators as a filter/smoothing capacitor is an excellent analogy. Instead of current leading the voltage, we have steam volume leading the temperature-- which makes the ECOSteam such a good choice.

Regarding modulation, your earlier query of what the true benefits of full modulation really are: Frankly, with Big Iron Capacitors, I think it's less of an issue, but I do very much like the idea of the air being expelled and being held away until the whole thing is done for the cycle.

But controlling the firing rate based on demand/odr would work great with steam, assuming excellent venting/balance and/or vac operation.

@Jamie Hall, I'm glad you understand that the whole issue occurs in a much, much larger system. Global, even! I just try to remain cognizant of it, that's all.

ttekushan_3

@Gordy , thanks. It's all good. I'll check my oversensitivity at the door next time.

"I think steam is quite amazing even outside the heating aspect." Oh yes. Nothing like watching steam explosion/implosion videos for a lesson in "steam gone wild!"

ChrisJ

I do believe most power plants use steam as well hydroelectric aside of course

ttekushan_3

About 89% of electric power generation in the USA is done with steam turbines, including coal, gas, and nuclear [nukular?]. Here's an EIA screenshot. I still think harnessing all that latent heat could really be put to good use. Perhaps thermal energy storage is the place we really need to be, technologically? You get to keep and use power plant waste heat and store solar as well.

Cool monitor top, BTW, @ChrisJ . I had one for awhile about 20 years ago, but found myself in one of those situations where I had no room for it at the time. I found a good home for it, though. And I remember it was virtually unnoticeable on the electric bill and could chill cases of warm soft drinks in the hottest weather in no time. SO2, of course.

Charlie from wmass

@Bob Bona no clogged or leaking returns on Jamie's system, he has a guardian angel.

Gordy

Fred said:

@Gordy, don't feel bad! I get a "Disagree" from a poster for just about everything. I suspect even, when that poster doesn't disagree. It's the price we pay for having an opinion and maybe for sharing it with those who like to think their opinion is the only one that counts. At least ttekushan's view point is thoughtful, meaningful and not intended to be vindictive. In this case, He simply seems to disagree with what was said.

I don't mind disagrees @Fred . But I'd do mind being taken as offensive when that is not my intentions. As @ChrisJ said we are all friends around here. Hence my childhood remarks friends would always throw around.

Charlie from wmass

Trouble with typing, tone does not come through most times. Fun thread though.

Mark Eatherton

"Mark, in the spirit of civil discourse, can you explain your position that pressure is an archaic form of control? What advantage do you see with using temperature as the controlling variable rather than pressure in your example? I ask as one with 30+ years of experience designing control systems for industrial processes. Pressure, temperature, flow, pH, conductivity, etc. are all valid sources for process control. Which one you use depends on what you can measure, how accurately you can measure it, and the rate of response of the measurement.

I've no doubt your temperature control strategy could work for systems running above 1/2 psi. There's almost a 10 deg F span of control between 0 and 3 psi. But when you get into near-vapor pressures that guys like myself and @ChrisJ are running, that span narrows considerably, and there I think pressure rules the day.

Case in point: A Midco LNB modulating burner has been running on my steamer for almost 3 years. It modulates on pressure, currently controlling to 0.5 inches of water column at the boiler. The burner modulates from its high fire of 240 MBH down to around 150 MBH to maintain that pressure. An OSA sensor feeds an outdoor reset algorithm that adjusts burner run time and maintains indoor temperature within 0.7 degree F.

21st century automation on a 19th century heating system. Was it expensive? Yes. Will I see a return on the investment? Eventually, but that wasn't as important as saving fuel, reducing emissions, and improving indoor comfort. Now, is this system as efficient as a mod-con? Of course not. But I dare say it's as efficient as it can be. For many of us who obsess over our steam systems, that's the whole point."

Mark, your point on vapor pressures are well taken. I've followed your efforts to create the ultimate vapor pressure controllers. Most people would not go through the girations you have to gain the degree of control that you have gained. Kudos to you for persistence. I don't think I need to go into much explanation about why pneumatics on the load side, (vapor pressure switch unreliability). We know the direct relationship of temperature and pressure and with todays DDC controls, in my minds eye, it just makes for a tighter, more repeatable control logic. It doesn't come without baggage, no logic does. America will continue to do what Amercans do, and that is grab whats convenient, regardless of its accuracy, and cross you fingers in the hopes that it will be somewhere near the range you are trying to control with. Repeatability is a serious issue with all mechanical controls that I've dealt with. Too many variables to contend with, based on the resistance of a simple spring assembly. It's the nature of the beast that we have become accustomed to. Remember, other than this elite group of vapor heads, most homeowners won't be sitting in front of their boiler documenting the exact operation of their physical plant, and fine tuning to the inth degree. They (regular Joe homeonwers) have NO idea what they are missing out on

As it pertains to industrial control applications (pneumatics) I am familiar with the technology, in fact one of the first classes I took at opportunity school, was on Pneumatic controls. I still find myself recalling what I was taught in that course, from over 30 years ago. What really kills me about that scenario in todays economics is the fact that some much energy (compressors) are waste in the course of controlling a given factor. DDC has been in the field for well over 20 years that I am aware of, and can completely displace pneumatic controls to a much higher degree, increasing control quality, and reducing parasitic (compressor) waste. It might not be applicable to every situation, but I have watched as schools and other buildings that were pneumatically controlled we converted to DDC with a significant impact on comfort and energy consumption. Set up right, pneumatics (obviously) work fantastic, however, the number of properly trained qualified pneumatics control technicians is dwindling FAST. Keep up the great work.

Terry said," I think pressure is a legitimate and perhaps a more sensitive measure of what's going on in the steam chest of a boiler, assuming it's all steam and no air. There won't be any superheat. Being intimately familiar with a system with a pair of full modulation steamers (5:1 turndown), a high CFM unit heater turning on somewhere or another will show up as an uptick in one or another of the Honeywell Modutrol motors controlling each burner. We have 250 boiler HP available at full power and even when the pair are cruising around 3:1 or lower, a 350,000 BTU unit heater turning on the blower will have a visible effect on whichever burner is closest to the next step up in firing. Invariably one motor arm will move a few degrees higher. This happens in under a minute, the physical distance from the boiler room being a few hundred feet away.

Most important is what we do with those measures.

BTW, @Mark Eatherton I hope things are well at the RPA et al. Some of vaporheads really appreciate what you do."

Excellent observation on externally induced pressure differential Terry. That's why I appreciate your take on things. It is based on real time field observations that most people wouldn't even give attention to.

My comments were more directed at a simple residential steam control system, and not the industrial applications you deal with in the field. And as you pointed out, in certain cases, pneumatic control does make sense where you have variables that are so subtle that a DDC system might not pick up on the effect of that variable in a short time frame.

Thank you also for the kudos on the RPA. It has been a long hard row to hoe, but the seedlings are starting to raise their heads, and the horizon looks bright. We appreciate your support, and quite honestly, my involvement has been from the perspective of making a difference for the contractors.

Keep up the great work Terry and please don't be a stranger. I think I can safely say that everyone here wants to hear/see your perspective on any topic.

ME

ChrisJ

Mark E,

"America will continue to do what Amercans do, and that is grab whats convenient, regardless of its accuracy, and cross you fingers in the hopes that it will be somewhere near the range you are trying to control with."

Yes, and being it seems most Americans will buy products made in China to save 10 cents while putting themselves out of work, you can be assured they will be putting forced hot air in their houses.

I've seen people build $500-800K homes and then put in forced hot air because "there wasn't enough money in the budget for radiant". 5 bathrooms for 2 people was more important than having a quality heating system.

bob_46

%

Robert O'Brien

Steam or hot water, it's all hydronics. Warm air is the enemy.

ChrisJ

Robert O'Brien said:

Steam or hot water, it's all hydronics. Warm air is the enemy.

Let's be completely honest.
If you're a professional on this website, forced hot air and ignorance is taking money out of your pocket, not steam.

Ever since I started following two groups on FB that show pictures of bad installs I've seen quite a few bad forced air installs, even deadly, so it's not just steam that's being hacked.

MarkS

Mark Eatherton said:

I don't think I need to go into much explanation about why pneumatics on the load side, (vapor pressure switch unreliability)...

Set up right, pneumatics (obviously) work fantastic

Thank you for your comments, Mark. I did not realize that you were talking about pneumatics as the mechanism of control. I agree their day has come and largely gone, replaced by electronic and now digital control systems. To clarify, my system is DDC, using an electronic pressure transmitter which provides a 4-20ma signal to the control system. I'm not sitting in the basement fooling with mechanical or pneumatic controls. No siree, there's no time for that, there's software to be written and data to be gathered!

Gordy

There is hacks in every facet of construction Chris.

Gordy

The sad part is the people that do it right, and point out the wrongs of the hacks are labeled fear mongers by the general consumer.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

There is hacks in every facet of construction Chris.

And every language.

ChrisJ

I don't care who you are, that was funny.

Gordy

"Are" Mr. Grammar. Actually "is" seems to be exceptable in the plural sense anymore.

Y'all got me Chris

Major7

As a forced air home owner for over 20 years, I'm delighted to be on steam heat for the last few seasons.

No loud forced air woosh (by comparison, steam is quiet)
When the furnace turns off, you still get heat. With forced air, you could feel the cold creeping in immediately. I've found it far easier to maintain a stable temperature in my steam heated home.
Steam Radiators are cool looking.
Changing temperatures in rooms with a radiator are easier than messing with both cold air returns and register vents.
No furnace filters or duct cleaning to screw around with


That's my list....

Mark Eatherton

ChrisJ said:

Mark E,

"America will continue to do what Amercans do, and that is grab whats convenient, regardless of its accuracy, and cross you fingers in the hopes that it will be somewhere near the range you are trying to control with."

Yes, and being it seems most Americans will buy products made in China to save 10 cents while putting themselves out of work, you can be assured they will be putting forced hot air in their houses.

I've seen people build $500-800K homes and then put in forced hot air because "there wasn't enough money in the budget for radiant". 5 bathrooms for 2 people was more important than having a quality heating system.

Chris, I have spent most of my life selling top quality hydronic based comfort systems to citizens of all walks of life.

One thing every job had in common was that my bid was always the highest bid. I had no problem explaining to the customer why my bid was the highest, and it was reflected in the fact that my proposals were typically a minimum of 8 pages in length, not including manufacturers cut sheets etc. My proposals had more inclusion in them than most of my competitors had in the way of exclusions. If the service was rendered by my company, then I had good subcontractors who would fill those gaps. My proposal were complete and comprehensive. My price was typically a minimum of 2 times more than my closest competitor, and as much as 5 time, depending upon who I was bidding against. We offered a 2 year warranty on ALL components, regardless of the manufacturers stated warranty. And I never ONCE mentioned the fact that my systems were more efficient than forced error systems. I didn't have to, because I sold these systems based on delivered, unparalleled COMFORT. The fuel savings, were whipped cream on top of the angel food cake.

People (lawyers I used to consult) can put a price on discomfort, but true, reliable comfort is priceless.

Our industry is so focused on trying to be the low bidders, that they have lost sight of the fact that we are allowed to charge a fair and reasonable price for a complete comfort system.

I never wanted to be the low bidder.

The biggest problem with our trade is that 95% of those tradesmen who are in the hydronics business have no idea what their direct cost of doing business is, and for every hour that they are doing business, they are losing money. That in and of itself is extremely stressful, and causes people to do seriously ignorant things, like trying to figure out how they can either reduce their price to the consumer, or cut corners on the job so they MIGHT end up with a little left over change in their pocket once the job is done. Simple economics dictate that you MUST charge more than it cost you to do business, or you will lose money. Don't charge what you think the "market will bear", or you will eventually get eaten by the bear...

It is also well documented, on this and many other sites, that there is a serious shortage of truly professional qualified trades people who REALLY do know what they are doing with both steam and hydronics. Lots of "want to be's" that know how to cut and thread and solder, but when the true test comes to where the rubber meets the road, they lose traction fast.

I am now in the training and certification fields, and I have no shortage of work at hand. Even when I was on the market, I had no problem teaching my competition. Some of them frequent this site, and are quite successful.

When I was teaching hydronics at the community college level, I always told my students that if they came up against me on a bid, to NOT back off, but to provide as much information in their proposals as they could, because I wasn't going to miss anything, and I also wasn't going to be the low bidder.

The poor consumer is at the mercy of the chuckle heads out there. Especially when it comes to steam. Oops, that didn't work? Well then let's try THIS... Oh, that didn't work, then lets try THAT. And so on and so forth until a qualified person comes in and tells the consumer that everything that had been done prior to their arrival is wrong, and needs to be undone in order to get the system working correctly.

As it pertains to threats from the outside to our industry, the VRF industry has made the claim that they do intend to take over every method of heating and cooling known to man kind. That matter of the fact is that they could actually write a check for all of the hydronics industry, put them to rest, and do their deed.

That revolution has already started, and we have a small group of manufacturers who realized it and were sharp enough to resist the takeover by educating the consumer to our special skills in delivering comfort and efficiency. www.hydronicsindustryalliance.org

One major problem that we as an industry has, is that the consumer really has no idea what true radiant comfort really is. All that they want is "heat", which is what most contractors have the ability to give them, regardless of the delivery methodology. Heat is but one component of true comfort, and in all honesty, in order to deliver true full spectrum comfort, you MUST move some air for ventilation, humidification, dehumidification, bathroom exhaust etc.

Everyone who frequents this site understands the comfort, and associated efficiency of these wonderful hydronic systems. We need to educate the consumers about what true comfort really is, and the fact that it is priceless...

My personal definition of "comfort" is not being aware of your surroundings. You are not hot, nor are you cold. You are not over humidified, nor are you under humidified. You can't hear the delivery system running in the back ground. Quite simply, if all of these conditions are satisfied, you are "comfortable" and you aren't thinking about it. If you are thinking about any one of these factors, then you aren't comfortable....

Sorry about the book. The soap box is now free

ME

Gordy

Most people like information. To much information can never hurt. The lack of it leaves way to many loop holes for the contractor, and the consumer.

Would you buy a new car if all the seller told you it is a Ford, and it will get your from point A to point B?

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Most people like information. To much information can never hurt. The lack of it leaves way to many loop holes for the contractor, and the consumer.

Would you buy a new car if all the seller told you it is a Ford, and it will get your from point A to point B?

Well,
We can start with I don't believe a word any car salesman ever says, so what he babbles is irrelevant.

I know what I want before I even leave to go to the dealer.

Bad example IMO Gordy.

KC_Jones

Gordy said:

Would you buy a new car if all the seller told you it is a Ford, and it will get your from point A to point B?

You went wrong there with Chris, he wouldn't be caught dead in a Ford dealer.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

Gordy said:

Would you buy a new car if all the seller told you it is a Ford, and it will get your from point A to point B?

You went wrong there with Chris, he wouldn't be caught dead in a Ford dealer.

Why are you spreading lies and rumors like this?
You should be ashamed of yourself and I want an apology.


I don't care where I am when I'm dead.

Chester

As a homeowner going through our first winter with a well-installed modcon, I can testify to the fact that 'comfort' was the first thing we noticed. Mark describes it perfectly.

Heating the house with 'gently warmed water' is a dramatic change and was something I didn't really expect or fully understand, since we were going first and foremost for cost and efficiency. But the radiators are always just warm enough and the house is just comfortable. You really don't notice it. No noise, no funny smell from toasting dust on the radiators and during more moderate weather the radiators don't even feel 'warm' because they stay pretty close to ambient air temp. Ironically, the loudest part of my system is the condensate pump. But that's a happy sound

ChrisJ

Chester said:

As a homeowner going through our first winter with a well-installed modcon, I can testify to the fact that 'comfort' was the first thing we noticed. Mark describes it perfectly.

Heating the house with 'gently warmed water' is a dramatic change and was something I didn't really expect or fully understand, since we were going first and foremost for cost and efficiency. But the radiators are always just warm enough and the house is just comfortable. You really don't notice it. No noise, no funny smell from toasting dust on the radiators and during more moderate weather the radiators don't even feel 'warm' because they stay pretty close to ambient air temp. Ironically, the loudest part of my system is the condensate pump. But that's a happy sound

Loudest part of my steam system is the gas valve.

I'm going to assume you paid someone to rip out a steam system?

Gordy

Neither do I Chris. I can't imagine anyone that would go to a dealership without knowing what they want.

But there are people that do depend on a salesman. More so in arenas of things they do not have a clue about. Such as......comfort systems.

You paint using a broad brush with salesmen Chris. In the end a contractor is a salesman. How well he paints his picture to the prospective consumer will yield the best results. Hence ME's description of his proposals, and how he sells himself. At a price worth every penny to his company, and the consumer.

ChrisJ said:

Gordy said:

Most people like information. To much information can never hurt. The lack of it leaves way to many loop holes for the contractor, and the consumer.

Would you buy a new car if all the seller told you it is a Ford, and it will get your from point A to point B?

Well,
We can start with I don't believe a word any car salesman ever says, so what he babbles is irrelevant.

I know what I want before I even leave to go to the dealer.

Bad example IMO Gordy.

Gordy

KC_Jones said:

Gordy said:

Would you buy a new car if all the seller told you it is a Ford, and it will get your from point A to point B?

You went wrong there with Chris, he wouldn't be caught dead in a Ford dealer.

I would have thought Chris to be a Ford lover. He likes to tinker

KC_Jones

lol no I am the Ford man. I drive a Pontiac right now for everyday, but my "fun" car is a Ford and the wife's car is a Ford.

Chester

ChrisJ said:

Chester said:

As a homeowner going through our first winter with a well-installed modcon, I can testify to the fact that 'comfort' was the first thing we noticed. Mark describes it perfectly.

Heating the house with 'gently warmed water' is a dramatic change and was something I didn't really expect or fully understand, since we were going first and foremost for cost and efficiency. But the radiators are always just warm enough and the house is just comfortable. You really don't notice it. No noise, no funny smell from toasting dust on the radiators and during more moderate weather the radiators don't even feel 'warm' because they stay pretty close to ambient air temp. Ironically, the loudest part of my system is the condensate pump. But that's a happy sound

Loudest part of my steam system is the gas valve.

I'm going to assume you paid someone to rip out a steam system?

No, sorry. I know this is a steam thread and wasn't going to opine but Mark's comment really stuck a chord. I've never lived with steam myself but I have many neighbors that have single pipe steam systems who were deciding whether to rip them out for hydronic now that we have natgas available. These are homes with relatively small heating loads and folks were generally satisfied with what they had. Unfortunately, very few local contractors are willing to do fuel conversions on older equipment. My situation was a no-brainer since I had a boiler that needed replacing and lots of cast iron hot water radiators, but I thought most people actually would be better off sticking with what they have. Two of my neighbors went whole hog with a modcon, new pipe and panel radiators. They have great systems but I'm sure guys already know what something like that costs.

For cost and comfort, my observation is that many folks with older but serviceable steam should probably look at putting their money in air sealing to and insulation to manage comfort and cost -- and having their steam tuned by a qualified profession -- before they pony up for a completely new system.

ChrisJ

Chester said:

ChrisJ said:

Chester said:

As a homeowner going through our first winter with a well-installed modcon, I can testify to the fact that 'comfort' was the first thing we noticed. Mark describes it perfectly.

Heating the house with 'gently warmed water' is a dramatic change and was something I didn't really expect or fully understand, since we were going first and foremost for cost and efficiency. But the radiators are always just warm enough and the house is just comfortable. You really don't notice it. No noise, no funny smell from toasting dust on the radiators and during more moderate weather the radiators don't even feel 'warm' because they stay pretty close to ambient air temp. Ironically, the loudest part of my system is the condensate pump. But that's a happy sound

Loudest part of my steam system is the gas valve.

I'm going to assume you paid someone to rip out a steam system?

No, sorry. I know this is a steam thread and wasn't going to opine but Mark's comment really stuck a chord. I've never lived with steam myself but I have many neighbors that have single pipe steam systems who were deciding whether to rip them out for hydronic now that we have natgas available. These are homes with relatively small heating loads and folks were generally satisfied with what they had. Unfortunately, very few local contractors are willing to do fuel conversions on older equipment. My situation was a no-brainer since I had a boiler that needed replacing and lots of cast iron hot water radiators, but I thought most people actually would be better off sticking with what they have. Two of my neighbors went whole hog with a modcon, new pipe and panel radiators. They have great systems but I'm sure guys already know what something like that costs.

For cost and comfort, my observation is that many folks with older but serviceable steam should probably look at putting their money in air sealing to and insulation to manage comfort and cost -- and having their steam tuned by a qualified profession -- before they pony up for a completely new system.

Not sure why a boiler replacement would justify ripping out an entire system. I converted my system from oil to natgas just by replacing the boiler.

If I had a hot water system with cast iron radiators I'm not sure if I would do a modcon or cast iron to be honest. due to all of the reasons mentioned throughout the thread. I do see why varying the temperature would be nice for comfort, but not sure about the extra costs associated with it.

As far as converting, or tearing out a steam system for it, that's a flat out NO.

Gordy

The behemoth boiler in the basement, and low hanging pipes is why most want to b rid of it. Gain space in the basement.

jumper

>>and for every hour that they are doing business, they are losing money.<<

My experience forty years ago was similar. It was a two way street. Contractors too desperate for business and clients too desperate for low initial estimate. Contractors lost,they sometimes tried to save their rear ends by talking a subcontractor to do work for too little. And clients called back with expensive problems. Of course they can expense the latter but may have to capitalize original work.

Henry may disagree,but when bigger buildings switch from steam to all hot water,there'll be expenses down the road unless it's a really first class (and expensive) job.