Steam heat is amazing...

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

The behemoth boiler in the basement, and low hanging pipes is why most want to b rid of it. Gain space in the basement.

Yeah....
I look at the space duct work takes up for forced hot air and my steam mains are tiny.

The runs up to the second floor are micro compared to the ductwork you'd need.

Low hanging, yes, but no lower than the bottom of those ducts will be. For hot water, yes, you win the argument. For 93% of America you lose.

BobC

@KC_Jones

I was just listening to this as I read your post -

Big Chief Pontiac - Omar Kent Dykes

Bob

Canucker

ChrisJ said:

Gordy said:

The behemoth boiler in the basement, and low hanging pipes is why most want to b rid of it. Gain space in the basement.

Yeah....
I look at the space duct work takes up for forced hot air and my steam mains are tiny.

The runs up to the second floor are micro compared to the ductwork you'd need.

Low hanging, yes, but no lower than the bottom of those ducts will be. For hot water, yes, you win the argument. For 93% of America you lose.

I got rid of the old gravity piping in my basement for exactly the reason @Gordy states. No hot air though, for exactly the reason you stated, although hot air was a suggestion while looking around for someone that could do the work. Haven't been able to mimic what I had before with the constant circulation through the old gravity set up, more on off now and I can feel the over and undershoot from the new set up. I imagine that would disappear with a properly sized mod con and long firing cycles

Charlie from wmass

You could try using an Energy Manager on your boiler to reduce water temperature. That would increase the run time on a cycle but would even out the heat.

Canucker

Charlie from wmass said:

You could try using an Energy Manager on your boiler to reduce water temperature. That would increase the run time on a cycle but would even out the heat.

I wondered if it was control based. It seemed once it was zoned and the new Honeywell stats were installed, it was never as even as the t87 that got replaced. Oh, and to stay on topic, I agree that steam heat is amazing

Fred

Oh, and to stay on topic, I agree that steam heat is amazing That's what I'm talking bout!

ChrisJ

You want to know why steam heat really is amazing?

It can operate with NO moving parts and NO electric.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

You want to know why steam heat really is amazing?

It can operate with NO moving parts and NO electric.

Yeah.....right.

Try and start the EG-40 without electric.

Good luck with that.

Oh,
So you don't think I can hunt down a millivolt setup for an EG-40? Seriously?

Where's my damn microphone so I can drop it again.

Charlie from wmass

I can get all the parts to send you Chris. You will need to remove your electric damper first.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Nope, I do not.

Charlie from wmass said:

I can get all the parts to send you Chris. You will need to remove your electric damper first.

@Hatterasguy ??

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

You want to know why steam heat really is amazing?

It can operate with NO moving parts and NO electric.

Pick up the Mic. Vents have no moving parts........come on.

hvacfreak2

I do not believe that a mechanical lwco that is correctly installed and ul listed should not be an issue. My boiler offers that as an option ( field installed ) and includes install instructions in the iom. I believe that there are vent dampers with end switches or enough of a shaft to accept an end switch.

You could wire those devices parallel with the existing devices , a couple of mechanical switches to manually change over in case of an outage. A manual switch to call for heat ( or enable a mv stat ) and make steam with no electricity , too cool.

ChrisJ

Just to be clear.
You don't need automatic vents for steam heat to work.

The silver soldered system I'd love to build would not have any vents.

My statement stands.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Charlie from wmass said:

I can get all the parts to send you Chris. You will need to remove your electric damper first.

Be sure to include the 67. He's going to need it.

I'm sure Charles Garrity is well aware a MM #67 is required. I have no intention in converting my boiler to a millivolt system, the point was I could.

Charlie from wmass

Use a float type lwco.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

Charlie from wmass said:

I can get all the parts to send you Chris. You will need to remove your electric damper first.

Be sure to include the 67. He's going to need it.

I'm sure Charles Garrity is well aware a MM #67 is required. I have no intention in converting my boiler to a millivolt system, the point was I could.

You cannot convert it to millivolt without eliminating all safety devices provided by the manufacturer. If you still want to go ahead with that, knock yourself out. If you have no intention of doing it, why make the statement in the first place?

The statement was ridiculous and you know it.

I made the statement because it's possible and is in every way a benefit of a conventional steam boiler vs your great modcon.

Not only that, the MM #67 is plenty safe and I would have no problem relying on one again.

Charlie from wmass

Spill switches work on milli volt systems too

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Charlie from wmass said:

Spill switches work on milli volt systems too

Stop egging him on.

You're missing the point about the fact that he cannot legally modify the EG-40 to that configuration without jeopardizing his insurance on it.

And you shouldn't keep supporting him in this quest.

Wait.
Why can't I?

All of the safeties would still work. Converting from a LESS RELIABLE probe LWCO to a more respected float type is a problem?

You lost, admit it.

KC_Jones

Hat he already modified the gas train on his boiler. How do you think the insurance company would react to that? lol Let's do it Chris, I will come over and help.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

When you make the change, and post it on here, I will admit I "lost".

I will also pray that you never have a fire in your house for any reason whatsoever.

You should be praying I never get a fire in my house anyway.
That's not right man. I always hope for the best with you and your family.

You hurt my feeling.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

Hat he already modified the gas train on his boiler. How do you think the insurance company would react to that? lol Let's do it Chris, I will come over and help.

Actually I didn't, you did.
My gas train is 100% stock as per WM specifications. Except for the union.

KC_Jones

We aren't talking about me so shush.

MarkS

ChrisJ said:

It can operate with NO moving parts and NO electric.

Millivolt systems operate using a principle known as ... wait for it ... electricity. A tiny amount, to be sure, but nonetheless electric.

Gas valves by definition have moving parts. As does the relay in your thermostat, and even the mechanism in an old reliable T87.

Up up and awayyyyyy!

ChrisJ

MarkS said:

ChrisJ said:

It can operate with NO moving parts and NO electric.

Millivolt systems operate using a principle known as ... wait for it ... electricity. A tiny amount, to be sure, but nonetheless electric.

Gas valves by definition have moving parts. As does the relay in your thermostat, and even the mechanism in an old reliable T87.

Up up and awayyyyyy!

That's it, you're getting oatmeal the next time you visit.

Charlie from wmass

self generated electricity. Therefore it does not need electricity, it makes it's own. Drop the mike

Gordy

Technically an old gravity hot water system once setup had less moving parts than a steam system.

Unless you want to count the water in the pipes.

Let me drop that Mike for ya.

Steamhead

It still had a vent on each radiator (unless it was an overhead system). But the Tudor System didn't have vents or traps on the rads.

Abracadabra

Got called into an emergency last night where a 39-unit building lost power for 36 hours. Chicago temps were in the mid 20s... Brought in a small honda 1kw inverter generator and got the steam boiler going again. Good luck heating that building with anything near a 1kw generator using anything other than steam.

Fred

AWESOME!! I keep one just for that purpose!

ChrisJ

Fred said:

AWESOME!! I keep one just for that purpose!

I have a tiny 12V to 120V inverter and alligator clips I can clip to my car battery to run the boiler if need be. We also have a 4KW Coleman generator from the early 90s that sounds like a dump truck going through a nitroglycerin plant to run during the day if we have a long term outage. But the fact I don't have to run it for heat is nice. I forget what I figured out, but I think my car's battery will run the boiler without charging it for something like 4 or 5 days easy.

SWEI

Modern hot water systems (at least the ones we design and install) don't consume a lot of electrical energy. I'd be surprised if our largest project draws more than 1 kW at full tilt (3x 399k mod/cons, 100+ radiators and control valves.) Next time we're out there, I'll put a meter on the subpanel that feeds the boiler room and see what it tells me.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

AWESOME!! I keep one just for that purpose!

I have a tiny 12V to 120V inverter and alligator clips I can clip to my car battery to run the boiler if need be. We also have a 4KW Coleman generator from the early 90s that sounds like a dump truck going through a nitroglycerin plant to run during the day if we have a long term outage. But the fact I don't have to run it for heat is nice. I forget what I figured out, but I think my car's battery will run the boiler without charging it for something like 4 or 5 days easy.

Same here @ChrisJ . I also have a 17KW generator for possible extended outages. I have a 9KW and an 8KW generator that I got a really great deal on, one is diesel fuel the other two are gas. I bought the two as back-up for my son's home and my sister's home. None have been used yet! A few years ago we had a storm that knocked power out for two weeks all around me. My block was the only one in the area that did not loose power. Talk about disappointment

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

Modern hot water systems (at least the ones we design and install) don't consume a lot of electrical energy. I'd be surprised if our largest project draws more than 1 kW at full tilt (3x 399k mod/cons, 100+ radiators and control valves.) Next time we're out there, I'll put a meter on the subpanel that feeds the boiler room and see what it tells me.

1,000 watts!

If I recall my boiler alone consumes around 12 watts. Going off of the measurement I took when setting the mercury T-87 I used to have but I seem to recall 0.5A @ 24V.

This could be lowered if you remove the damper and probe type LWCO. Not sure how much those draw, but it's something.

Gordy

SWEI said:

Modern hot water systems (at least the ones we design and install) don't consume a lot of electrical energy. I'd be surprised if our largest project draws more than 1 kW at full tilt (3x 399k mod/cons, 100+ radiators and control valves.) Next time we're out there, I'll put a meter on the subpanel that feeds the boiler room and see what it tells me.

With that being said if you have a 1kw generator then no difference if the system needs 10 watts, or 1k.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

SWEI said:

Modern hot water systems (at least the ones we design and install) don't consume a lot of electrical energy. I'd be surprised if our largest project draws more than 1 kW at full tilt (3x 399k mod/cons, 100+ radiators and control valves.) Next time we're out there, I'll put a meter on the subpanel that feeds the boiler room and see what it tells me.

With that being said if you have a 1kw generator then no difference if the system needs 10 watts, or 1k.

1000 watts will use substantially more fuel than 10 watts. 1000 watts also will not last very long with a battery + inverter.

Gordy

If a generator is used its running whether it's 1k or 100 watts. It may use a little more fuel at full output, but not much. They kick up to high rpm no matter what you plug in.

Gordy

I'll bet a Honda 1k generator is lighter than a battery, or the same, and when your battery is dead I just dump more gas in, and pull the cord. Runs 8 hours on a gallon of gas. Then you can plug your trickle charger into my generator, or grab another battery out of a car.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

If a generator is used its running whether it's 1k or 100 watts. It may use a little more fuel at full output, but not much. They kick up to high rpm no matter what you plug in.

So you feel a generator consumes the same amount of fuel with it's throttle plate almost shut, as it does close to wide open?

Seriously?

I suppose your car consumes the same amount of fuel floored as it does idling.



After hurricane Sandy people were lined up at gas stations waiting to get gas for use in their generators, or sometimes cars.

I wasn't one of those people, not once.

And, my car battery is bolted in my car so I don't care what it weighs. I clip onto it, close the hood and connect my boiler. Voila, heat. See, drawing 12 watts means you can easily run 50 feet of 18AWG wire without concern. It makes no noise at all, and consumes no fuel while the boiler isn't running.

ChrisJ

SWEI

All synchronous AC gensets suffer from relatively high fuel consumption even at zero or near-zero loads. Carbureted gas engines suffer the most; direct-injected Diesels not so much.

Inverter gensets vary their engine RPM over a fairly wide range, so their fuel consumption tracks the electrical load far better.

Watts per square foot is probably a decent measure of this stuff. I'll try to get a number from the hotel job next week.