Propane Space Heaters

paigegirl

Hi gang-Earlier, I posted a question about the old Basement Gas Furnace I inherited (-concerned about the age etc.), so, as a possible option, I am considering a Propane/LP gas heater. The one I'm interested in is an Empire 10,000 BTU non-vent heater-(forgot the model number), from the Blossman company. A rep came by and discussed it with me & I was pretty impressed. I've heard some good things about these heaters, but never actually seen one in action. So-anybody using one? If so: 1. Are they safe? 2. Will they heat a fairly small house? (@1,000 square feet) 3. Are they much trouble to install & operate? Blossman will install it, just like to know if it is a lot of trouble. The price is good, so I'm definitely interested-also like the fact that no electricity is required. Any thoughts? Thanks! .

rick in Alaska

Personally I would not install a non vented heater. I know they have oxygen sensors on them to detect if they are firing incorrectly and shut them down, but I still wouldn't trust them. Not many things these days are that reliable to trust with safety.
If you have a place like most of the places around me that are built tight, then the air will be used up fairly quickly, and the unit will shut down.
I would opt for a vented wall unit myself. The most common one around here is the Rinnai heaters, which work very well.
Also, here anyway, the gas company would not even hook up the gas if you have a non vented heater inside.
These are the opinions of the author and do not reflect the opinions of this site etc, etc, etc......
Hope this helps.
Rick

Brewbeer

Ventless? I wouldn't be comfortable installing a heating appliance that puts combustion by-products into the house living space.

What is the heat loss of the house?

paigegirl

Thanks for the comments. About heat loss-I honestly don't know-I'll see what I can find out. Thanks again.

paigegirl

Rick-Tell me this-How much trouble is it to connect a vent? I know they cut a small "circle" through the wall to connect the gas, and that's fine, but is doing the vent a lot of work? How do most companies do it? thanks again.

sonofaplumber

Ventless

I have one and think they are wonderful. 100% efficient, simple, and usually very ascetically pleasing.

My CO detectors don't fuss, no condensation on the windows, and we don't get headaches.

There are space requirements in the I/O manual. This has to do with combustion air availability. If you plan to heat the whole home, I'm sure you'll place it where heat can migrate throughout most of the home, so you'll have most of the home's air available for combustion. That's 20x more air than the MFG's requirement for safe operation I bet.

-Joel

Jamie Hall

Watch out for your local codes. Many of them (all of them?) do not permit a ventless combustion heater in an area which is routinely occupied (some of them) or used for sleeping (others).

A through the wall vented heater is permitted, in most cases, and isn't a whole lot less efficient. And a lot safer... IMHO

Brewbeer

A 10,000 BTU ventless 100% efficient heater won't put out as much heat as the 60% to 80% Magic Chef furnace you have now, which is probably 30,000 to 40,000 BTUs (at least). Would the ventless heater be supplemental heat for the Magic Chef furnace, or a replacement for it?

ChrisJ

Ventless propane heater?

What is this the 1920s with the Clow Gas-Steam !?!?!

How is someone even able to sell such a thing in the year 2015?

ratio

FWIW, I've heard - but not verified - that the "oxygen sensor" is nothing less than
...a...
...thermocouple...
It senses that there isn't enough oxygen in the air to support combustion by noting that the flame has gone out. At that point, is there still enough to support life?

They are, nonetheless, 100% efficient.

JUGHNE

The few non-vented burners I may have run gas to were in a basement. The owners would crack a window or two for fresh air. There were back up heaters in the event of power failure.

The main issue was condensation on the windows in cold weather.......is it worse than a gas range cook stove with most burners running and the oven on to heat the house? That too is 100% efficient, no??

But I would always recommend a vented to the outside unit.

lchmb

although i do recommend vented if possible, vent free unit's are a big item in my area. Even Rinnai has reintroduced their unit and my parents use one in their basement. The ODS sensor is a bit more than a thermocouple and has to do with the air/gas ratio feeding into the pilot. There is even one vent free gas log approved for installation in bedrooms and bathrooms. As far as condensation, they do create moisture in the air. Some house's have issue's, some dont..
Dont have to like them, but other than one or two towns, most accept them now..

ChrisJ

Jeez,

I even get mad if my wife uses the stove to boil water without turning the exhaust fan on low.

rick in Alaska

The Rinnai heaters I deal with need about a 3 1/4 hole through the wall. Use a hole saw to drill through the wall. Very easy installation, safe, and not burning your air in the house.
Rick

ChrisJ

rick in Alaska said:

The Rinnai heaters I deal with need about a 3 1/4 hole through the wall. Use a hole saw to drill through the wall. Very easy installation, safe, and not burning your air in the house.
Rick

The Rinnai's are vented?

SWEI

Yes, direct vented -- and modulating, which is really nice.

rick in Alaska

Yes they are. Huge amount of them around here now that there is natural gas available. That and oil fired toyo's and monitors.
Here is the link to their site.
https://www.rinnai.us/direct-vent-wall-furnace
Rick

paigegirl

Thank you all for the in-put, BrewBeer: the heater (if I get it) would be a back-up for the furnace-I have visions of the old furnace dying in the middle of a cold wave. A couple of people I know have these & seem to like them. In this area, the county has to inspect them and approve, so they must think they're pretty safe-you can buy them at Lowe's, and on Amazon etc. I'm still a little concerned @ safety though -that's why I was wondering about a vented model, Rick. So the vent would be like the hole for the fuel line? The company will do all the installation etc. so I assume, if I get a vented one, they should do that too, right? Thanks again-I'm trying to get something done before winter, so advice is appreciated.

Brewbeer

Paige, the cost to install a vented or even a ventless heater is not inconsequential and, when all is said and done (heater, permit, gas piping, installation) likely represents 25 to 50% of the price of a new furnace.

If the propane heater is the temporary back-up plan for an untimely furnace failure, you might consider electric space heaters as a backup. For about $150, you could purchase 2 electric oil-filled radiators that would provide about 3,000 watts of heat, which is about the same heat output as a 10,000 BTU propane space heater.

Without a heat loss analysis of your home, it's not clear that 10,000 BTUs/3,000 watts would achieve the desired result (e.g., keeping the pipes from freezing) should the furnace die an untimely death.

ChrisJ

Brewbeer said:

Paige, the cost to install a vented or even a ventless heater is not inconsequential and, when all is said and done (heater, permit, gas piping, installation) likely represents 25 to 50% of the price of a new furnace.



If the propane heater is the back-up plan for an untimely furnace failure, you might rather consider looking at electric space heaters. For about $150, you could purchase 2 electric oil-filled radiators that would provide about 3,000 watts of heat, which is about the same heat output as a 10,000 BTU propane space heater.



Without a heat loss analysis of your home, it's not clear that 10,000 BTUs/3,000 watts would achieve the desired result (e.g., keeping the pipes from freezing) should the furnace die an untimely death.

I've become a big fan of the oil filled electric heaters as backup over the years.

I'll likely never be without at least one, just in case.

vaporvac

I hope never to use one again, but they kept me safe and tolerably warm when I had NO heat during the polar vortex. 32deg downstairs, but in the 60s, in my bedroom.

KC_Jones

I used one in my laundry room on the first floor last February for about a week to keep the pipes from freezing. They do have their uses. Their output is pretty good considering the size and mine is only a 1500 watt.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

I used one in my laundry room on the first floor last February for about a week to keep the pipes from freezing. They do have their uses. Their output is pretty good considering the size and mine is only a 1500 watt.

I use 1 in the cabin at my parent's combined with a heavy relay, 24V transformer and a separate thermostat. Works really well for the small cabin.

If it gets really cold out, I use two, but only one is controlled by the thermostat for obvious reasons.

The adjustable thermostat on the oil filled radiator it self only regulates the radiators temp, not the rooms. So I crank it all the way up and then let my thermostat on the other side of the room control it.

Jamie Hall

We have -- and use -- the old standard "milk house" heaters -- 1500 watts each, fan forced. They're cheap. They're reliable. They're pretty safe, as portable heaters go. Safe enough that we use them in the barns... !

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

We have -- and use -- the old standard "milk house" heaters -- 1500 watts each, fan forced. They're cheap. They're reliable. They're pretty safe, as portable heaters go. Safe enough that we use them in the barns... !

The only downside anyone would probably have with those vs the oil filled radiator is noise.

That, and the oil filled radiator produces radiant heat with some mass. Not much, but some.

SWEI

Milk house heaters are also available for 240V (at 3-5 kW each.) A 30A dryer outlet can safely deliver up to 5.8 kW.

Jack

The ODS equipped vent free heaters are actually very safe. I'm a vented heater guy by training and preference, but I sold a lot of the Rinnai Fan Convector units. They are commonly used to manage outages by the oil and lp companies. When the furnace/boiler goes out n Maine and it is -10* you have to move quickly. Companies drop one or two of the VF units in and it kind of decompresses the "hurry up and put in whatever you can get your hands on" appliance. Rather you can present to the homeowner what they need and not have to run your crews all night...or you. It is funny. I've had many companies tell me that upon completion of the new equipment while backing off the job and picking up they would grab the VF and the homeowner would say, "hey where you go in' with my heater?" And they would buy one.

The rules are no more than a 6kbtu VF in a bathroom and it must be wall mounted. Max in a bedroom is 10kbtu. The DOE does publish sizing guidelines for vent free based upon climate zone, cubic vol of space to heat, loose, average or tight construction, with or without a t-stat.

I run my Fan Convector with my analyzer in the grill and get 0 ppm of CO. VF heaters are approved as supplemental heaters, not as a sole source of heat. Hence they are "space heaters". Direct Vents are "wall furnaces" and can be the sole source of heat.

To the OP I would suggest that you tell the Blossman salesman to bring the Rinnai over and run it for you. They have the units. More money, but way more value. As well, I would suggest that you look at the Rinnai DV. They have vent extensions and are fabulous basement heaters.

I have to acknowledge my bias. I represented Rinnai for 25 years and consult with them still. I also heat my home with them and installing another in my new shop this weekend;)

ChrisJ

Ok,
Help me out here because I must be missing something.

If it's acceptable to install multiple small propane ventless heaters in a house.

Why can't I vent my 125,000 btu NG boiler into my basement? I have plenty of fresh air thanks to a drafty house.

What's the difference between these? They both consume O2 and produce CO2 when working properly. They both will consume O2 until they start spewing CO if not enough fresh air is available and they will both kill the people in the building under such conditions.

Even my 40,000 btu water heater must be vented for safety reasons and that likely won't run near as much as space heaters can.


Why is it acceptable for one and not the other? Help me understand.

Jack

The maximum size allowable for a VF is 40 kbtu. The difference is in the burner lay-out and the Oxygen Depletion Pilot system. There are around 15,000,000 VF heaters in the US and no CO deaths. Oxygen is 20.9% of the volume of air. The rest is nitrogen and a few traces elements. If the unit is oversized or the space not properly ventilated, the O2 in the space will begin to drop. When the O2 is reduced by 2-2.5% the pilot begins to feather off the t-couple and it drops the burner out in a hard lock-out. The lower oxygen doesn't have the "pressure" to reach the T-couple. I guess the analogy would be to get your torch running really well and then choke off the air. You get a lazy yellow flame. These ODS' are not a standard pilot. They are precisely manufactured and there is no adjustment.
The problems you see with VF can be moisture if oversized or improperly ventilated. As well they need to be kept clean. They can begin to stink when dirty. Also, anything that is airborne like hair spray or paint fumes, goes thru the burner and I can about guarantee you that it will not come out smelling better than it did when it went in.
Chris I do understand your reluctance on them (initially I was the same), but for supplemental heat they are pretty neat and they are very safe. I found that the problem with the heating business is that by the time you get the heat on it is time to go to another cold place. I had some guys who would set the vent free and heat the space they were working in.

vaporvac

I have a vent-free fireplace, but it says not to run it more than two hours at a time.. They're not allowed in Ca or Canada. Are these different to what we're talking about here?

j a_2

I am with Rick in Alaska, the rinnai direct vent wall furnace is the way to go....for heat....if the gas and outlet are there installation is less than 2 hours

Jack

Me Too!

paigegirl

Thank you all for the information-I am still thinking it over, sorry to say I don't know what some of the abbreviations (like ODS and VF mean (!) As for price-the 10,000 BTU Empire (don't know if I can get a Rinnai here) is @ 700.00 which actually is pretty close to half the cost of a new furnace. I am also thinking of power outages-for some reason, we always get at least one-the heater would be good for that. Blossman is a reputable company & they have a 3 week waiting list to get one of these. So sounds like they are pretty popular-wouldn't you say that means they are pretty safe? Don't want to take any chances, but I do need a reliable source of heat-have to decide soon. Thanks again-all this input is very useful.

vaporvac

VF = vent free.

Tim McElwain

ODS Oxygen Depletion Safety Device, it is part of the pilot system that works on the principle that a reduction in oxygen (below 18%) will cause the quick drop out thermocouple (30 second drop out compared to a normal thermocouple of 180 seconds) to slowly see a reduction inflame size pulling away from the thermocouple and eventually causing the magnet assembly in the gas control to snap shut due to a reduction in millivolts shutting off all flow of gas.

VF stands for vent free. I other words the products of combustion from an appliance which must be less than 40,000 BTU's can escape into the living space. For those who have a problem with this on Thanksgiving when cooking the dinner with a gas cooking stove you will have the following venting into the kitchen; 4 top burners of 10,000 BTU's each (40,000) and the oven 20,000 to 25,000 for a total of 60,000 to 65,000 BTU's of flue gas and in many cases no vent hood to outdoors in the kitchen.

ChrisJ

Tim McElwain said:

ODS Oxygen Depletion Safety Device, it is part of the pilot system that works on the principle that a reduction in oxygen (below 18%) will cause the quick drop out thermocouple (30 second drop out compared to a normal thermocouple of 180 seconds) to slowly see a reduction inflame size pulling away from the thermocouple and eventually causing the magnet assembly in the gas control to snap shut due to a reduction in millivolts shutting off all flow of gas.

VF stands for vent free. I other words the products of combustion from an appliance which must be less than 40,000 BTU's can escape into the living space. For those who have a problem with this on Thanksgiving when cooking the dinner with a gas cooking stove you will have the following venting into the kitchen; 4 top burners of 10,000 BTU's each (40,000) and the oven 20,000 to 25,000 for a total of 60,000 to 65,000 BTU's of flue gas and in many cases no vent hood to outdoors in the kitchen.

I have a 440CFM variable speed exhaust hood over the stove that is always on at a minimum of 200CFM if even one burner is lit.

I don't understand why an outdoor vented exhaust hood over gas stoves isn't required by code and have brought this up multiple times.


That said, if Tim feels the VF heaters are safe I have to believe they are.

4Johnpipe

I have installed a couple the natural gas Rinnai's are very easy to install. The only issue I had was one of the digital controls got stuck on Celsius. They sent a new one with directions.

SWEI

Tim McElwain said:

on Thanksgiving when cooking the dinner with a gas cooking stove you will have the following venting into the kitchen; 4 top burners of 10,000 BTU's each (40,000) and the oven 20,000 to 25,000 for a total of 60,000 to 65,000 BTU's of flue gas

That gave me a chuckle for sure.

Don't forget "some number of which are producing abnormal amounts of carbon monoxide" there.

SWEI

We had a close call last winter with 70 PPM. Not pleasant.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

We had a close call last winter with 70 PPM. Not pleasant.

What were the symptoms and the cause?

SWEI

Headache, flushed face and neck, dizziness, and tiredness.

We were roasting a leg of lamb in an unvented natural gas convection oven in a very drafty 1919 house during cold, dry weather. Wife and I were both feeling out of it and suddenly the light went on. Ran outside and grabbed my analyzer, which registered 70 PPM ambient. Opened two windows which dropped it to 5 PPM in under three minutes, at which time we immediately started feeling better. Dropped to zero in less than ten minutes.

Stuck the probe in the flue of the oven and saw 1-3 PPM. Apparently it just built up in the space. Gave me a good scare.