Overhauling my steam system! Help me answer a few questions please?

mookie3333

Hi guys. A couple updates. I installed my new pigtail and gauge, to find out that the pressuretrol was running steam up to 4.5psi before cutting off the boiler. The 1 psi differential seemed to be accurate as the boiler would kick back on at about 3 and change. If I could stretch out that spring, I could get lower pressure... but I tried with no success. I turned the screw until the very last thread, what supposed to be the lowest setting, which took me to 4.5.

On another note, the system was losing pressure at 1psi in less than a minute. I noticed my #2 constantly hissed, maybe it's defective. I pulled it off and put another one on (bought another recently for my other main vent). I didn't try to test the system since... is it common for the main vents to fail right away?? Noticed in the stuck one, I heard nothing when I shake it. In the new one, I hear something clanking slightly when I shake. Please have a look at my main and pigtail gauge setup. Did I do something wrong? Thanks guys.

Fred

You can re-calibrate that Pressuretrol. Here is the procedure:

Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn too much, a fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it (maybe 1/32 inch turn to start with). You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be.

EDIT: I might add, at 4.5 PSI of pressure, your vents are going to hiss. When you get the pressure down, they will quiet down also.

Abracadabra

mookie3333 said:

I noticed my #2 constantly hissed, maybe it's defective. I pulled it off and put another one on (bought another recently for my other main vent). I didn't try to test the system since... is it common for the main vents to fail right away?? Noticed in the stuck one, I heard nothing when I shake it. In the new one, I hear something clanking slightly when I shake. Please have a look at my main and pigtail gauge setup. Did I do something wrong? Thanks guys.

This season I've had an excessive amount of "stuck" Gorton #2s. Not sure what to attribute it to. You can somewhat "test" a vent by blowing into it with the vent upright and you should be able to bloew thru it. Turn it upside down and it should close. I've had too many, imho, #2s that are stuck and a bunch that won't completely shut on steam.

Does anyone know if there's a Gorton rep on the board? My supplier just shrugs, and replaces them.

mookie3333

Thanks. I had a chat with supplyhouse (email, really) and within 10 minutes, got confirmation that a new #2 is in the mail to be delivered tomorrow. Great company!

Fred - thank you for the guide on how to recalibrate the pressuretrol. Haven't done it yet, but I will definitely try it when I have a free minute.

2 new questions:

- Does anyone have a recommendation on how to relocate my LWCO so that I can open up the chamber door for a proper cleaning??

- I installed one of those wifi thermostats so we can fire up the heat before we get home. This is currently a 2 wire setup (Rh, W) coming from the beckett burner. Is there anywhere in the LWCO, or burner that I can grab a C wire? I took off all the covers, but didn't see anywhere I can tap onto for a C wire.

mookie3333

By the way, here's my new pigtail and gauge.

Question - is my gorton #2 ok like this? Old one was perfectly vertical, but pretty much touching the subfloor above. I can give it another 45 degree turn if needed, or is it not necessary? THanks.

BobC

I would move that new gauge up at least another 6" to make sure it lasts a long time.

Bob

Fred

mookie3333 said:

By the way, here's my new pigtail and gauge.

Question - is my gorton #2 ok like this? Old one was perfectly vertical, but pretty much touching the subfloor above. I can give it another 45 degree turn if needed, or is it not necessary? THanks.

If it were me, I'd try to get it vertical but since it operates using bi-metals instead of a float, it might be alright. Watch it for a while and see if it opens and closes reliably.

mookie3333

Done and done. To give the gorton a 45 degree turn is no big deal. Ordered some parts to raise up the gauge, parts should be here by Saturday. Thanks guys.

mookie3333

Fred said:

You can re-calibrate that Pressuretrol. Here is the procedure:

Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn too much, a fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it (maybe 1/32 inch turn to start with). You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be.

EDIT: I might add, at 4.5 PSI of pressure, your vents are going to hiss. When you get the pressure down, they will quiet down also.

Hey fred,
Is this the hex screw you're talking about?? I think I need to get this done today .... Ran the boiler for a couple hours last night, the high pressure keeps my boiler short cycling the entire time... 2 minute on, 2 minutes off. This is because steam/air kept coming out of the gorton slowly, even after an hour of run time, and dropping the pressure quickly.

On another note, about 45 minutes after I turned off the heat, I heard a varivalve on a radiator nearest to the boiler blow out a stream of air. What gives? I thought after 45 minutes there would be no pressure in the system.

KC_Jones

Just so you are clear about pressure. The system dictates what the pressure is capable of getting up to, the pressuretrol just shuts the boiler down when it hits a certain pressure. So the short cycling won't be fixed by turning that down and could possibly make it worse. If it is short cycling that bad either the boiler is way oversized or you don't have enough venting. Have you measured all your radiators and compared that to the boiler size? If not that might be a good idea to see where you are with respect to boiler size. Which model Megasteam is that?

ChrisJ

Bio said:

ChrisJ said:

I still say the coolest component for a steamboiler is a Magnehelic.

https://youtu.be/gxlQvjOhGAE

Now that's what Doctors call OCD, LOL..

Can't argue that one.
Yes, the OCD stress will do me in I'm sure, but my system works real nice.

mookie3333

null
Kc.. the boiler is mst288 or 396. Not sure which one, as they both have 23" jacket size.

Ill have to measure the radiators, but I have 6 total radiators, varying sizes... some with ten sections, some with 14ish.

What I'm saying is that at 5psi,the system is losing steam pressure , either through the gorton or radiator vents. It's losing pressure at a rate of the 1 psi differential in two minutes. Either a defective gorton( again?? Hmm ...), or the high pressure is forcing the vents (my thoughts.. just assuming). Either way, I'll try to calibrate the pressuretrol and see where we stand.

What else could be making my system lose pressure so quickly? One thing is sure though..after everything is nice and hot ( over an hour of thermostat calling for heat), there is a continuing very small, steady stream of very hot air coming from the top of the gorton. My feeling is the main vent should be completely closed at that point.

KC_Jones

If the pressure hits the cutout of the pressurtrol the pressure drops immediately because it stops making steam almost instantly. It's not that steam is getting out it's that steam isn't coming in. Water expands at a rate of 1700:1 when it turns to steam AND the opposite is true when you condense it. So the burner cuts off, stops making steam and most of what is in the systems condenses by 1700 times it's volume. You might have a leak, but i seriously doubt it's causing what you are seeing.

Fred

@mookie3333 , yes that is the hex screw. Just to reiterate, you said the pressure would go up to about 4.5PSI before the boiler shut down, right? And you are sure the pigtail is not blocked? Re-calibrating the Pressuretrol will allow that control to trip at the set cut-out pressure. If air/steam comes out of the Main vent an hour after the boiler has been running, most likely that vent is stuck open. Tap it a couple times and see if that frees it up. It may need to be cleaned or replaced. As for the radiator vent, often when the pressure is high and/or the boiler has run for extended periods, when those vents finally have a chance to open, what you hear is air being sucked into the radiator, not steam pressure.
Recalibrate the Pressuretrol and get the pressure down and see what happens. The short cycling could be the result of the Pressuretrol not being properly calibrated. If I recall, I think you also said you stretched the spring on the Pressuretrol trying to lower the pressure. You may have done some damage when you did that.

mookie3333

null
I tired to stretch the spring but with no success. No big deal, I'll try your adjustment and see where it gets me.worst case scenario I trash the thing and get a vaporstat.

mookie3333

Fred, by the way the pig tail is not blocked because I just replaced it last week. I ensured the tapping was also free of debris.

About the spring, i removed the spring totally and tried to stretch it out rather than in place. I don't think I did any damage..

Jamie Hall

mookie3333 said:

null


What I'm saying is that at 5psi,the system is losing steam pressure , either through the gorton or radiator vents. It's losing pressure at a rate of the 1 psi differential in two minutes. Either a defective gorton( again?? Hmm ...), or the high pressure is forcing the vents (my thoughts.. just assuming). Either way, I'll try to calibrate the pressuretrol and see where we stand.

What else could be making my system lose pressure so quickly? One thing is sure though..after everything is nice and hot ( over an hour of thermostat calling for heat), there is a continuing very small, steady stream of very hot air coming from the top of the gorton. My feeling is the main vent should be completely closed at that point.

That quick drop in pressure once the burner stops is due to the steam condensing in the radiators. Quite normal, and not due to a leak or a vent not closing or whatever.

Now... the Gorton should be closed when it's hot. However, that it isn't may be due to the high system pressure. Have to get that right first.

Now that the system cycles on pressure, but not within the first 10 to 15 minutes of running -- which I gather is the case -- indicates that the boiler is oversized.

mookie3333

null
Ok, I fixed the pressuretrol with Fred's adjustment..great solution. I now cut in at about half, out at 1.5 ..... system still short cycling, about 3 min off, 3 on.

Radiators are as follows...
Living room 16 sections..dining room 14 sections... big bedroom 13 sections ... second bedroom 12 sections ...smallest bedroom, 8 sections ... bathroom 10 sections.

Is my boiler oversized? , How can I look into this more?

KC_Jones

Need more information to size rads. Pictures would help dramatically for this. There are many different styles that have different ratings. We also need height and depth. If you google search EDR radiator sizing you will probably find some charts that you could work from to size them if you wanted.

Jamie Hall

Somewhere -- I forget where -- there is a handy dandy reference guide for radiators, from which -- once you determine what type radiators these are -- you can get the "EDR" value for each radiator. Add those up. The EDR rating of your boiler -- which should be on the nameplate -- should be roughly the same. A little bit less, a little bit more, OK. A lot less (unlikely) or a lot more -- not so good.

BobC

This should work.

Bob

mookie3333

Here's the 16 section one. A section is about 6 3/4" deep, and 20 in high. A section width is 1 3/8", and 2.5" center to center

Fred

mookie3333 said:

null

Ok, I fixed the pressuretrol with Fred's adjustment..great solution. I now cut in at about half, out at 1.5 ..... system still short cycling, about 3 min off, 3 on.



Radiators are as follows...

Living room 16 sections..dining room 14 sections... big bedroom 13 sections ... second bedroom 12 sections ...smallest bedroom, 8 sections ... bathroom 10 sections.



Is my boiler oversized? , How can I look into this more?

If all the radiators are the same style and all are 20" tall and all are the same width, just different number of sections, I come up with a total radiator EDR of 160 Sq. Ft (EDR) of Steam. What is the size of your boiler? Lookm on the plate on the side of the boiler and it should tell you the Sq. Ft. of Steam rating. How long does the boiler run before it starts to short cycle?

Glad the Pressuretrol re-Calibration worked for you.

KC_Jones

I get the same number as Fred if the measurements on all the rads is the same. You have a Megasteam and the smallest one is rated for 288. So even if you have the smallest one it's 44% oversized. The problem is being on oil you can only go so small. Perhaps a pro would know if it's possible to downfire and tune the burner to get you closer, but I believe the oil will be a limiting factor. Let us know which one you have. I hope you don't have the 396 that would be horribly oversized.

mookie3333

There are also fins along the 2"mains, 2 sections about 3 ft each. From what I've learned about trying to insulate everything, and condensing before reaching to radiators, the fins seem like a bad idea. I can probably cut them off.

I was planning to change the burner to a power gas burner at some point... is this doable with my oversized boiler? Or should I get the whole thing changed out?

Do you guys know how I can tell if I have the 288 or 396? The name plate has 4 different model numbers and says to determine boiler size by measuring the jacket length, but 288 and 396 both have the same jacket length.

KC_Jones

Post a picture of the nameplate/serial number plate that might help. There should be some place it has ratings for steam sq ft or something. Another option is posting the specs on the burner that would tell us what it's firing at and would indicate the size. Oh and Burnham does not approve a gas gun in that boiler so if you do it you will void the warranty, that is if you could even find someone to install it which you probably won't. Basically if you want gas you would have to swap the entire boiler.

Fred

The Burnham boilers typically (all boiler for tht matter) have the input/output Steam Rating and HW rating on the plate. The 6 ft of fins on the main is probably a good thing if the boiler is over-sized. I assume that is helping to heat areas of the basement and there are a few additional EDR there. Removing those fins and insulating those sections will probably cause even more short cycling as you are not releasing that amount of heat back into the basement. It is important that we figure out which boiler you have before anyone can offer suggestions. In any case, make sure you have the maximum amount of venting on those Mains. The faster the heat can get to the radiators and cause the thermostat to be satisfied, the fewer short cycles you will have.

mookie3333

Here is the only plate I can see on the boiler... I'm guessing the installation is incomplete ....

Fred

Wow. I'm assumming you don't have any of the original paperwork or receipts? Do you know who the supplier was? Who the installer was? If you have a serial #, calling Burnham Customer Service might get you an answer. The serial # might even have the model # incorporated into it. Some Manufacturers even have a website that you can plug your serial # into and it will give you the mfg. date, model # and a few other specifics. At least we know the boiler is at least about 40% over-sized. I think a smaller nozzle can be installed to help down fire it some but not that much but everything helps.

BobC

Some of the new boilers have any and all specific info on a peel and stick label, if that label is missing you can be SOL. I know this because my installer decided to clean up by boiler with a real geed cleaner that removed all the infor from the label on my Smith G8-3.

In your case I think the onlly real difference between the two boiler you might have is the firing rate of the oil gun and perhaps a low fire baffle, Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.

Bob

vaporvac

Perhaps he can clock to meter to determine what he has?

mookie3333

Thanks guys...I think I'll contact burnham and see if they have any suggestions. 98% chance that the installation happened to be by a lovely company called PETRO... I wonder if they installed the piece of foil over the main vent when that failed too??

BobC

Someone would have to see what nozzle is installed on the oil gun because the two boilers are damn near identical, with the possibility of a baffle on one of them.

Bob

JUGHNE

Insurance boiler inspectors use a mirror to see if your steam pressure relief valve is seeping. It would fog. If you had an inspection mirror on a telescoping handle maybe you could see if your vents were seeping steam out. Mirror should be cool.

Hot air being vented would probably fog the mirror also. This test would be when the steam hit the vent and too hot to touch. It should be absolutely closed by then.

I had a shipment of 10 #2 Gortons of which 3 would not rattle in the box. There should be a rattle when shaken and a clunk when turned upside down. I returned them for new, no problem. (seemed like a fairly common occurrence)

I don't know where you are or your OAT, but is it early to be testing steam operation? Yes, we want to know if things are working but really need winter to check it out.

mookie3333

Nice idea about the mirror ... I'll try it out. Could short cycling be caused by my near boiler piping? This is something I haven't evaluated yet... also, what about dirty water? I know dirty water isn't good for the system, but can it cause short cycling? Noticed that the water in the sight glass is a dirty rusty color... this occurred and worsened after changing some of the water.before I changed the water, it was pretty clear.

Fyi, I'm right on the border of queens and long island, Bellerose to be exact. Thanks guys

Fred

Near boiler piping is very important to the overall performance of the system but the fact that the boiler appears to be way over-sized is probably the biggest contributing factor to the short cycling. Once you determine if you can go smaller on the oil nozzle, you may reduce the over-sizing by 10% to 15% which will help but won't eliminate all the short cycling. I don't know how much warranty you have left on this boiler but this may be a case where you give up that remaining warranty and consider converting this Megasteam to a gas gun and down firing it (if you have gas into the house). Maybe @Steamhead can chime in on this. He knows the Megasteam very well.
Also, if you can confirm the assumptions we made on your radiators when we calculated the EDR, just to make sure our assumptions are correct. If our assumptions are wrong, then maybe the boiler sizing may not be as bad as it appears. A total of 160 sq. ft seems very small. Are all the radiators the same style? height (20")? width (about 7")? All tube type, like the picture you posted?

mookie3333

Hey Fred,
Yes I can confirm that the radiators are all the same style, same everything, only difference is number of sections. The house is two stories , 23 ft x 28 ft each floor.so it is a relatively small house.

I am definitely looking to go to gas, there's a gas hw heater about 4 ft away from the boiler. I was wondering about converting- I know Burnham doesn't endorse it, but does this mean it can't be done... I don't think so. There was a service card from petro stating service since 2011 so the boiler is at least 4 years old.

Fred

mookie3333 said:

Hey Fred,

Yes I can confirm that the radiators are all the same style, same everything, only difference is number of sections. The house is two stories , 23 ft x 28 ft each floor.so it is a relatively small house.



I am definitely looking to go to gas, there's a gas hw heater about 4 ft away from the boiler. I was wondering about converting- I know Burnham doesn't endorse it, but does this mean it can't be done... I don't think so. There was a service card from petro stating service since 2011 so the boiler is at least 4 years old.

It can be done and has been done by others. Problem is Burnham simply refuses to certify the Megasteam for use with gas. No one seems to know why, except, perhaps, for Burnhams own marketing strategy. In any case, that boiler comes with a 10 year warranty on the block. Giving up five or six years of warranty is a hard decision but if the boiler isn't going to perform correctly anyway, it may be a no brainer to make the conversion. I'm hoping Steamhead chimes in. He knows a lot about the Megasteam and has been one of the biggest proponents to try and get Burnham to certify it for gas. He may have installed some with a gas gun, I'm not sure. He, for sure can advise you on how best to proceed.

RobG

I would put a gas gun on it if it were mine. The Megasteam only has a five year warranty against corrosion related failure of the heat exchanger and if your system is piped correctly and leak free that will not be an issue. As well, the warranty is limited to the original owner. They have the warranty worded so well that they can slither out of any claim they want to. Gas will probably save you a ton on your fuel bills as well. Can you post some photos of the piping above the boiler so that we can get an idea of any issues you need to deal with?

http://www.usboiler.net/resources/manufacturers-warranty.html

Fred

RobG said:

I would put a gas gun on it if it were mine. The Megasteam only has a five year warranty against corrosion related failure of the heat exchanger and if your system is piped correctly and leak free that will not be an issue. As well, the warranty is limited to the original owner. They have the warranty worded so well that they can slither out of any claim they want to. Gas will probably save you a ton on your fuel bills as well. Can you post some photos of the piping above the boiler so that we can get an idea of any issues you need to deal with?

http://www.usboiler.net/resources/manufacturers-warranty.html

@RobG , According to Burnham, the heat Exchanger has a 10 year warranty and 5 years against "Water side Corrosion". If the heat exchanger isn't "Water side", I don't know what else is?? You are right, the wording leaves it wide open for their interpretation.
"Not only does the MegaSteam have a 10-year warranty on the heat exchanger, it has the industrys only 5-year warranty on water side corrosion. ....read more "