Overhauling my steam system! Help me answer a few questions please?

RobG

Fred said:

RobG said:

I would put a gas gun on it if it were mine. The Megasteam only has a five year warranty against corrosion related failure of the heat exchanger and if your system is piped correctly and leak free that will not be an issue. As well, the warranty is limited to the original owner. They have the warranty worded so well that they can slither out of any claim they want to. Gas will probably save you a ton on your fuel bills as well. Can you post some photos of the piping above the boiler so that we can get an idea of any issues you need to deal with?

http://www.usboiler.net/resources/manufacturers-warranty.html

@RobG , According to Burnham, the heat Exchanger has a 10 year warranty and 5 years against "Water side Corrosion". If the heat exchanger isn't "Water side", I don't know what else is?? You are right, the wording leaves it wide open for their interpretation.
"Not only does the MegaSteam have a 10-year warranty on the heat exchanger, it has the industrys only 5-year warranty on water side corrosion. ....read more "

Legalese. The language only a lawyer MIGHT know.

Mark N

The wording is "boiler to resist Temperature Induced Chloride Activated Graphitic Corrosion for a period of 5 years from date of original installation". That is very specific. Any boiler that get too much feed water will rot out. If the water has high chlorides the boiler can still rot out even if it takes very little water. The 10 year warranty is that it will remain free of defects in materials and workmanship under normal usage. Taking 1 gallon of water a day of feed water is not normal usage.

RobG

Mark N said:

The wording is "boiler to resist Temperature Induced Chloride Activated Graphitic Corrosion for a period of 5 years from date of original installation". That is very specific. Any boiler that get too much feed water will rot out. If the water has high chlorides the boiler can still rot out even if it takes very little water. The 10 year warranty is that it will remain free of defects in materials and workmanship under normal usage. Taking 1 gallon of water a day of feed water is not normal usage.

Hence the fact that I said "The Megasteam only has a five year warranty against corrosion related failure of the heat exchanger and if your system is piped correctly and leak free that will not be an issue."
I don't think he is original owner though.

Mark N

The only thing they cover is temperature induced chloride activated graphitic corrosion. Not corrosion caused from a leak that causes excessive feed water. A boiler can fail from temperature induced chloride activated graphitic corrosion even if it is properly piped and has no leaks.

ChrisJ

So are you saying you can dump bleach in your boiler and destroy it and they will cover it under warranty?

Perhaps I don't understand what "chloride activated graphitic corrosion" is but it sounds like corrosion from chlorine when heated.

Canucker

Chris, with chloride, think salts not bleach

mookie3333

null
Correct, I'm not the original owner. It was installed for the previous owner, who sold the house to me in February 2015. Here is a picture of the near boiler piping..

Mark N

Chris, go to the "Systems Help Center" and search "What makes a steam boiler Fail?"

Fred

mookie3333 said:

null

Correct, I'm not the original owner. It was installed for the previous owner, who sold the house to me in February 2015. Here is a picture of the near boiler piping..

Well, The fact that both Mains are tied into one riser and that riser is a smaller size than either of those mains is certainly not helping your situation. Each of those Mains should be tied into seperate risers off of the Header and the header should be at least one size larger that the riser out of the boiler.
That piping really should be fixed but that by itself isn't going to completely correct the short cycling. The boiler is just too big. If you do decide to convert it to gas, have the piping corrected as well. The boiler is too new to not be installed correctly, if for no other reason than being able to balance the steam distribution.

mookie3333

Guys I want to thank you all for your suggestions... what started as me looking for a little help turns out be bunch of guys with a passion for steam heating weighing in on how to fix my system, with no benefit whatsoever. I would buy each one of you a beer if I could!!! Thank you for all the knowledge you've given me... I'll continue to troubleshoot this sucker until it's working the way it's supposed to, even if I have to replace the boiler.

One more thing.... that lwco.. should I relocate it? Turn it just to clean the chamber? Can I turn it permanently?

Abracadabra

I don't see a LWCO with a chamber in any of your pics. I see a probe type LWCO. Maybe post another pic of what you are considering to be the LWCO?

KC_Jones

I think the chamber he is referring to is the combustion chamber. As far as I know you can "clock" the LWCO in any orientation you require for installation. If you have the manual you can look in there (should be available online as well) and see what they recommend. If you are able to I think turning it 90° would get you where you need to be. If you do this you would want to completely remove it and reinstall with fresh pipe dope to make sure it's sealed, don't use teflon tape at all on it or it won't work properly.

ChrisJ

Assuming that's the same, or close to the same LWCO as this it looks like you may have to flip the housing 180 degrees or rotate the probe as the housing is held on with two screws.

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Mcdonnell & Miller - 153601-LWCO - Install Instructions.pdf

Yes, I'd turn the LWCO without a doubt. You should be able to swing that door open for maintenance with minimal effort. I'd probably clean the boiler twice a year as well. A clean boiler is a happy boiler especially when it comes to oil fired systems.

mookie3333

This morning I turned on the heat. It's been about an hour. My living room radiator is hot as can be, but brand new maid o mist installed still hissing steam away.what gives? I'm sure this contributing to short cycling.. now there's a little water boiling and bubbling out of top vent. have vent with interchangeable pieces... do largest hole there now, because wanted heat up first. Shouldn't valve close when hits it though??.

Mark N

Maybe the valve seat is dirty. Take the vent off and run water through it. If the pressure is high the vent could leak and hiss. You mention short cycling. Are cycling on pressure? Why is the boiler still running if the rad vents are closed? In the coldest weather around zero my boiler doesn't run long enough to close the vents.

Mark N

There is a good chance your over venting this rad. The largest port for a MOM is a "D". Over venting a rad will increase the velocity of the steam in the riser to the rad. This can cause the condensate to be not able to drain which will cause the vent to spit water. The high velocity steam can also cause crud to get stuck in the valve seat and then it can't fully close. I myself wouldn't use anything larger than a "6", and that only on a large rad. Or the vent is defective as per Hattasguy.

Bio

mookie3333 said:

This morning I turned on the heat. It's been about an hour. My living room radiator is hot as can be, but brand new maid o mist installed still hissing steam away.what gives? I'm sure this contributing to short cycling.. now there's a little water boiling and bubbling out of top vent. have vent with interchangeable pieces... do largest hole there now, because wanted heat up first. Shouldn't valve close when hits it though??.

With big vents you will hear hissing on two occasions, one when steam is pushing air out of the vent and second when the cycle ends, condensate will return pulling air with it

Abracadabra

Hatterasguy said:

Mark N said:

Over venting a rad will increase the velocity of the steam in the riser to the rad. This can cause the condensate to be not able to drain which will cause the vent to spit water.

What steam velocity do you expect out of a hole that is approximately .125" diameter?

A "D" is more like .375

I just had to

But yeah... I've been running into a lot of new vents lately that haven't been closing properly... quality control is going down the drain...

Mark N

Hatterasguy in TLAOSH Dan Holohan covers the velocity of the steam in a riser. If the velocity is to fast the condensate can't drain and you can experience banging and spitting. In 1 pipe steam the velocity is controlled by the the size of the vent and the size of the pipe and the size of the valve. He mentions he turned on the heat this morning. Everything then is most likely cold. Cold systems produce a lot of condensate making the problem worse.

ChrisJ

The velocity is caused by the piping and radiator condensing steam and sucking more seam in. Not the vent sizing, though the vent sizing is what determines how fast the air leaves the radiator so it is related.

Fred

Unfortunately we know (from earlier conversations on this string) that this boiler is at least 40% over-sized, probably more like 50% and that the near boiler piping is not right. It is going to short cycle until steps are taken to get the sizing more aligned to the radiator EDR. Getting the piping corrected will help dry the steam out. The best thing you can do, in the interim is make sure the Pressuretrol is set at the lowest possible setting .5PSI Cut-in and a Differential of no more that 1 PSI. That's not going to reduce the amount of short cycling but it will keep the pressure down enough to allow the condensate to return to the boiler. MAKE SURE that the Pressuretrol is cutting in and Cutting Out at pressures relatively close to the settings. If you have it set correctly and the pressures are still way out of the set ranges, the problem will continue. Believe me, I learned a long time ago that if the Pressuretrol is out of calibration and allows the boiler to run for an extended period to attempt to satisfy the thermostat, pressure will prevent condensate from returning to the boiler until the end of the heating cycle and it will push water out of the radiator vents and high pressure will even slow the steam down, compounding the issues. None of us like shrt cycling but, if we have to choose between that short cycling and having a warm house, especially with a baby in the house, we take the heat and work on the short cycling. If this Megasteam can have a smaller nozzle put on it, get a pro in to do that and get the combustion adjusted. You are (were) considering a gas conversion. As has been said that will void any warranty you have left on that Megasteam but getting it down-sized with a proper gas gun and combustion analysis is another good option. The third option is to put a properly sized boiler in and trying to recoup some of your cost (albeit minimal) by selling the Megasteam. The only other option, I can think of is live with the short cycling. In any case, the piping needs to be corrected to help the system run as best it can, pressure controls and boiler needs to be maintained very well, Main vents need to be the best possible, not just "close to what the system needs". This is a case here one extra vent may be slightly more than you need but one less vent, even if you are under by half a vent, will only make the boiler run a lkittle longer and add an extra short cycle or two. Do not use set-backs at night or when you are away from home! That will only add to your stress level as the boiler will short cycle endlessly trying to reach temp.
Finally, if the radiator vent isn't closing when the entire radiator is hot, clean it and preferably replace it. It's not working.

mookie3333

Ok guys, im sorry it wasn't the biggest size on there, I had a C . Changed it to a 4 to see if there's any difference. Haven't had to turn on the heat yet so can't tell what happened yet. I can't believe qc is so bad on these vents... it's almost like a guessing game, trying to track down the faulty vent. Anyhow I'm sure this is definitely a place where the pressure is being lost, although probably not the only cause of my sort cycling. Once those valves are stuck, any way to bring them back to life??

Fred

mookie3333 said:

Ok guys, im sorry it wasn't the biggest size on there, I had a C . Changed it to a 4 to see if there's any difference. Haven't had to turn on the heat yet so can't tell what happened yet. I can't believe qc is so bad on these vents... it's almost like a guessing game, trying to track down the faulty vent. Anyhow I'm sure this is definitely a place where the pressure is being lost, although probably not the only cause of my sort cycling. Once those valves are stuck, any way to bring them back to life??

In the case of a vent being stuck open, that doesn't cause short cycling, quite the opposite. Short cycling is caused by a build up of pressure beyond set limits which means the radiators can't condense the steam as fast as the boiler makes it, hence pressure builds and the pressure controls shuts the burner down. A vent that is stuck open will help reduce the short cycling, along with create a very humid environment

Mark N

This is a quote from TLAOSH from"Air Vents and Oversized Radiators". I don't know the size of Mookies radiator or the size of the riser feeding it or the size of the valve. "My thinking was that if we could slow the venting rate, we'd also slow the rate at which steam entered the radiator. That would mean less condensate during any given minute. It would also mean slower velocity in the riser".

BobC

I wonder if using too large a vent might result in more velocity because the steam would tend to shoot straight across and then up to the vent and thus encounter the normal resistance of having to work it's way across the radiator.

Bob

Abracadabra

Hatterasguy said:

Abracadabra said:

Hatterasguy said:

Mark N said:

Over venting a rad will increase the velocity of the steam in the riser to the rad. This can cause the condensate to be not able to drain which will cause the vent to spit water.

What steam velocity do you expect out of a hole that is approximately .125" diameter?

A "D" is more like .375

I just had to

But yeah... I've been running into a lot of new vents lately that haven't been closing properly... quality control is going down the drain...

Now you had to make me go and check it.

A "D" is .185".

The bottom line is that the hole is far too small to allow any significant steam "velocity" as you certainly know.

Damn... sorry.. your right... dunno wth I was thinking.... Probably confused thinking 3/16" was 3/8". Not sure how in the world I got 3/8" I'll have to chalk it up to not having enough coffee.

/me goes hides back under a rock...

ChrisJ

I guess my comment will just be ignored by everyone, that's fine.

Mark N

Chris being ignored increases with age. Also, I reread your comment and Dan Holohan's comment from TLAOSH. The size of the vent determines the rate at which air leaves and steam enters and condenses. The faster this happens the higher the velocity in the riser. So it would seem the size of the vent has a direct relation to the velocity in the riser as does the size of the pipe. If the velocity becomes too great the condensate can't drain and the rad can rumble and the vent spit. Mookie reports the rad was completely heated and the vent was spitting. Could be a bad vent, could be crud in the valve seat, could be the pressure is too high. High pressure can cause a closed vent to spit.

ChrisJ

Mark N said:

Chris being ignored increases with age. Also, I reread your comment and Dan Holohan's comment from TLAOSH. The size of the vent determines the rate at which air leaves and steam enters and condenses. The faster this happens the higher the velocity in the riser. So it would seem the size of the vent has a direct relation to the velocity in the riser as does the size of the pipe. If the velocity becomes too great the condensate can't drain and the rad can rumble and the vent spit. Mookie reports the rad was completely heated and the vent was spitting. Could be a bad vent, could be crud in the valve seat, could be the pressure is too high. High pressure can cause a closed vent to spit.

Exactly.
With a full rad and a closed vent you have a lot of condensate and yet zero venting. If you use a large vent, it lets steam rush into a possibly ice cold radiator which can also cause a large increase in condensate.

The only issues I've had with too large of a vent is the steam taking a shortcut across the bottom of the radiator and shutting the vent. I really don't know if this matters, but it seemed to decrease the normal output of the radiator. I had this happen on 2 of my radiators, and several of my neighbors as it seems to depend on how much pressure you're supplying the radiator.

Meaning, you can't just assume you can't use a Gorton C on a certain size radiator, it all depends on the pressure the system runs at and the length of piping between the boiler and radiator.

Mark N

Short circuiting is known problem when you vent a rad too fast. The steam can shoot across either the bottom or the top of a rad and close the vent causing the rad to under preform. I would think the "C" and "D" Gorton's and MOM's are best used on very large rads hooked up to properly sized pipes and valves.

ChrisJ

Mark N said:

Short circuiting is known problem when you vent a rad too fast. The steam can shoot across either the bottom or the top of a rad and close the vent causing the rad to under preform. I would think the "C" and "D" Gorton's and MOM's are best used on very large rads hooked up to properly sized pipes and valves.

I have C's on two radiators that are fairly small but far from the boiler. They have a lot of pressure drop and running the low pressures I do, I need a fairly unrestrictive vent.

vr608

ChrisJ said:

I have C's on two radiators that are fairly small but far from the boiler. They have a lot of pressure drop and running the low pressures I do, I need a fairly unrestrictive vent.

Same here. I recently renovated my attic and added a small 12 section Corto radiator, about 22 EDR. Its on a riser that is roughly 30 feet long. I changed the existing MOM 6 vent supplied by the installer to a C, and on my next test the radiator short circuited.

Not sure where to go from here, since I need that unit to run a bit hotter since the room is considerably cooler than the rest of the house.

KC_Jones

Some people have had luck adding a second vent at the top of the riser that vents the pipe quickly and then vent the radiator at a more appropriate rate. I guess I am lucky as I have steam only radiators so the short circuiting doesn't seem to be an issue. I have a Gorton D on a 10 EDR with about 20' of 1" pipe (longest in the house) and I have zero issues with it.

vr608

vr608 said:

Its on a riser that is roughly 30 feet long.

Actually, I misspoke; I meant to say runout instead of riser. Unfortunately, I don't have access to most of it anyway, it runs up through two floors to the attic and then under a bathroom floor.

ChrisJ

vr608 said:

vr608 said:

Its on a riser that is roughly 30 feet long.

Actually, I misspoke; I meant to say runout instead of riser. Unfortunately, I don't have access to most of it anyway, it runs up through two floors to the attic and then under a bathroom floor.

You can either drill and tap a fitting on the end of the pipe to install a vent, or, modify the valve on the pipe to accept a vent or even drill and tap the radiator on the pipe side for a vent. A vent on the pipe side of the radiator will allow all of the air to rush out of the pipe fast, but will close once steam hits it so the radiator it self will be vented via the slower vent on the proper side of the radiator.

Fred

Not sure where to go from here, since I need that unit to run a bit hotter since the room is considerably cooler than the rest of the house.
You also might want to try putting that Gorton C on the radiator, on the same side as the supply pipe. There should be a divet on that side of the radiator where you can drill and tap it. That will allow all the air to escape from that long riser and then close when the steam hits the radiator. Put a smaller vent on the opposite side of the radiator to then let the air escape from the radiator.

vr608

Ah, thanks guys, didn't think about the pipe side of the radiator as an option. I think I may go that route, i.e. tap and add the larger vent there.

Sorry for hijacking the thread!

mookie3333

Maybe related to your issue ... I am adding a new radiator and unsure how to get the vent on the radiator.check the attached pics

KC_Jones

It's hard to tell for sure, but the first picture appears to have a plug screwed in where the vent need to go. You would need to get that plug out to add a vent. If that isn't a plug I am seeing then you are going to need to drill and tap that hole to accept a vent. The official size drill for 1/8" NPT is a "Q" (.332"), but I have used a slightly larger 11/32" (readily available) bit and not had any issues. If you want to get really fancy you can get a tapered reamer, but I think then it's a different drill size. lol You will want to go slowly and use a good lubricant for drilling and taping.

Mark N

KC_Jones said:

Some people have had luck adding a second vent at the top of the riser that vents the pipe quickly and then vent the radiator at a more appropriate rate. I guess I am lucky as I have steam only radiators so the short circuiting doesn't seem to be an issue. I have a Gorton D on a 10 EDR with about 20' of 1" pipe (longest in the house) and I have zero issues with it.

KC why would one need a Gorton D on a rad of 10 sqft EDR? I could understand 100sqft EDR. The D has the same capacity as a Gorton #1 main vent. There is very little air in the rad and pipe.