Overhauling my steam system! Help me answer a few questions please?

KC_Jones

Because I have a 10EDR rad that's trying to heat about 150 sq ft of space in 2 rooms so I want it to fill as often as possible for as long as possible. It's inadequate, but it's keeping the chill off. Sometimes people (not me) remodel and don't think about the consequences. There was a 25 EDR rad removed so that tiny one is doing what it can.

Mark N

Understood.

mookie3333

null
Guy at the supply store told me no one drills the hole for the vent, and was trying to sell me a 1 inch bushing on top where the plug usually goes, which reduces to 1/8" to allow for the vent. Never seen the vent up that high before.something wrong with doing it that way?

KC_Jones

People that know will drill it. If you put it at the top it will increase the likelihood of a short circuit. It's pretty straight forward the steam wants to go to the top of the radiator. You put the vent at the top what do you think will happen? That boss is there for a reason. Of course maybe that guy thinks he knows more than the designer of the radiator...I will await the presentation of all his R&D on the subject. Lol.

Fred

Drill it, as we reccommend. If nobody drills the hole for the vents, how does he suppose all those holes got into the 10's of thousands of radiators in the world and none at the top of the radiator?

Abracadabra

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mookie3333 said:

Guy at the supply store told me no one drills the hole for the vent, and was trying to sell me a 1 inch bushing on top where the plug usually goes, which reduces to 1/8" to allow for the vent. Never seen the vent up that high before.something wrong with doing it that way?

Sounds like he didn't have the tools to sell you to drill and tap your own vent, but he did have a bushing to sell you...

vr608

mookie3333 said:

Maybe related to your issue ... I am adding a new radiator and unsure how to get the vent on the radiator.check the attached pics

Very similar to the radiator I have, and the exact same problem, I'll have to drill out the plug and tap. Currently trying to get the appropriate tap and drill bit, will report back with success/failure.

mookie3333

I ordered my tap, should be getting it later today. Whether I have time to do this tonight while juggling the kids is a different story.

vr608

mookie3333 said:

I ordered my tap, should be getting it later today. Whether I have time to do this tonight while juggling the kids is a different story.

I need a tap too. I looked at a few items on Amazon but worried about getting a good "matched" set. Mind sharing where you got yours?

ChrisJ

I bought my 1/8" NPT tap, tap handle, and size Q drill bit from McMaster Carr. I also ordered a 1/4" NPT tap, 7/16" drill bit, and 1/4" to 1/8" bushings from them as well in case I ever have an issue with a vent tapping. If one ever gets damaged enough it can't be fixed I can drill it out, tap it and put a bushing in it.

vr608

ChrisJ said:

I bought my 1/8" NPT tap, tap handle, and size Q drill bit from McMaster Carr. I also ordered a 1/4" NPT tap, 7/16" drill bit, and 1/4" to 1/8" bushings from them as well in case I ever have an issue with a vent tapping. If one ever gets damaged enough it can't be fixed I can drill it out, tap it and put a bushing in it.

Thanks Chris. I've never heard of them, will check it out.

j a_2

The guy at the hardware store is in way over his head....He should apply to fast foods night cleaning shifts, mop and go

j a_2

On the serious side do be careful to drill and tap it correctly, a vent blowing off a steam radiator can and has caused serious burns....double wrapping of tape will not last...kids faces are about the same height....it's really a extreamly simple project, for a pro...

vr608

j a said:

On the serious side do be careful to drill and tap it correctly, a vent blowing off a steam radiator can and has caused serious burns....double wrapping of tape will not last...kids faces are about the same height....it's really a extreamly simple project, for a pro...

Yea, I plan on practicing on some spare pipe I have lying around first. I do quite a few DIY projects so I'm fairly handy, just need to learn the art of tapping before I ruin my radiator.

ChrisJ

Tapping is easy, especially into cast iron.
Drill the hole into the radiator keeping it as straight as possible. Then, run the tap in being careful to keep it square in the hole. Go a few turns until it feels tight and back out one turn. Go another few turns in, back out a little again. Rinse and repeat until you're at the depth you want.

I would advise against running the entire tap in and keep an eye on how deep the area is in the radiator. You don't want to bottom the tap out in the radiator.

From what I recall, my 1/8" tap usually ends up between 1/2 way to 3/4 of the way in to end up with the amount of turns I want on the vent. Because it's a tapered thread, the further you run the tap in, the deeper the vent threads in but if you go too far you loose the ability to make up for wear, rust etc. By not going all the way you also make it possible to run the tap in again years down the road if the threads get messed up. Just run it a little deeper, and you have good clean threads.


You're supposed to always use a good cutting oil when tapping, however I can never make my self do it. I dread putting oil anywhere near my steam system. If you want to use oil, anything from a good quality cutting oil, to 3 IN 1 to WD40 would work better than nothing.

mookie3333

j a said:

On the serious side do be careful to drill and tap it correctly, a vent blowing off a steam radiator can and has caused serious burns....double wrapping of tape will not last...kids faces are about the same height....it's really a extreamly simple project, for a pro...

Well that's scary...
Can I use KROIL for cutting oil?? McMaster Carr... Just checked them out. They have a ridiculous amount of product.... Do they manufacture all this stuff?? I don't see any brand name on their stuff, and alot of products have autocad renderings.

ChrisJ

mookie3333 said:

j a said:

On the serious side do be careful to drill and tap it correctly, a vent blowing off a steam radiator can and has caused serious burns....double wrapping of tape will not last...kids faces are about the same height....it's really a extreamly simple project, for a pro...

Well that's scary...
Can I use KROIL for cutting oil?? McMaster Carr... Just checked them out. They have a ridiculous amount of product.... Do they manufacture all this stuff?? I don't see any brand name on their stuff, and alot of products have autocad renderings.

Mcmaster Carr is a supplier and they stock many brands. One thing I can say is anything I've ever got from them was a quality brand. I have a few Bahco screw drivers from them.

KROIL should be fine, like I said I've never used anything on mine because I don't want it ending up back at the boiler.

mookie3333

Guys, I want to replace my 2nd main vent with a Gorton #2. First one was somewhat of a nightmare - There was a 1/2" to 1/4" or so bushing rusted onto the elbow, to reduce and allow the existing undersized vent. I sprayed and sprayed, heated, waited, etc, and eventually broke the bushing. Stayed like that all summer until it was time to put on the heat a few weeks ago. Eventually, I took my time with a hacksaw blade and was able to cut the bushing into pieces and remove it, and put my gorton on there. This was a painstaking process. Anything I can do to make the job easier this time around? I have the same bushing to remove, on my second main. First vent was leaking, so it was pretty rusted on. This one isn't leaking, but I tried it with a wrench and it definitely seems pretty tight... probably been on there since the house was built. I want to avoid breaking it, and get it to screw off clean. Hosed the sucker down with kroil about 3x with no success. To make matters worse, it's in a damn tight spot.

ChrisJ

mookie3333 said:

Guys, I want to replace my 2nd main vent with a Gorton #2. First one was somewhat of a nightmare - There was a 1/2" to 1/4" or so bushing rusted onto the elbow, to reduce and allow the existing undersized vent. I sprayed and sprayed, heated, waited, etc, and eventually broke the bushing. Stayed like that all summer until it was time to put on the heat a few weeks ago. Eventually, I took my time with a hacksaw blade and was able to cut the bushing into pieces and remove it, and put my gorton on there. This was a painstaking process. Anything I can do to make the job easier this time around? I have the same bushing to remove, on my second main. First vent was leaking, so it was pretty rusted on. This one isn't leaking, but I tried it with a wrench and it definitely seems pretty tight... probably been on there since the house was built. I want to avoid breaking it, and get it to screw off clean. Hosed the sucker down with kroil about 3x with no success. To make matters worse, it's in a damn tight spot.

I've heard many say penetrating oil will never work on pipe threads because the entire point of thread sealer is to seal the threads, so why would oil be any different?

My only guess is to try and heat the fitting around the bushing with a torch, maybe even try to keep the bushing cold somehow.

Other than that, busting it out may be your only bet.

KC_Jones

How big of a wrench are you using? This is a situation (since you don't care about the bushing) that a big wrench might help. That or a normal size wrench with a big cheater pipe over the handle. Have you tried any of that yet? I have a lot of patience, except when it comes to taking pipe apart. If it doesn't come apart with wrenches fairly quickly I default to cutting and banging. We all have our preferences and ideas on how to do it, most of mine revolve around what tools I actually have. I have had luck using some kind of cutting device, reciprocating saw, hacksaw or cutoff wheel in a grinder and a cold chisel with a 2 pound hammer. Cut a slot in the part of the bushing that is sticking up (both sides) insert cold chisel into slot and bang away. Usually what happens is the bushing or pipe will collapse inside the pipe and sometimes it loosens to the point you can unscrew it. If not you can just collapse it and remove the pieces. Best way? Probably not, but it's what works for me. All that hammer banging is good for the soul, pretend what you are hitting is someone you don't like.

vr608

I had a single Hoffman 45 as a main vent that I discovered when I went vent hunting last year. Seems to have been installed over 40 years ago, and it finally took a 36" pipe wrench to remove. Very tight spot too, so I feel your pain.

They usually do come off in the end though, patience is all that is required.

vr608

vr608 said:

j a said:

On the serious side do be careful to drill and tap it correctly, a vent blowing off a steam radiator can and has caused serious burns....double wrapping of tape will not last...kids faces are about the same height....it's really a extreamly simple project, for a pro...

Yea, I plan on practicing on some spare pipe I have lying around first. I do quite a few DIY projects so I'm fairly handy, just need to learn the art of tapping before I ruin my radiator.

Sorry for hijacking the thread guys...

So finally got around to doing this, but my results have been a bit different than expected. After tapping, I added a MOM #D vent to the supply side, and stuck with the existing #5 vent on the other side. The radiator STILL won't heat all the way across; it seems to heat fully on the supply side and then mostly on the top on the other. Should I be using a slower vent in place of the #5? This is on a 4 tube, 12-section Arco radiator (the smaller sized ones).

Dave in QCA

I wish I had someplace for flame decals on my boiler! I guess I'll just have to be content with the rumbling that it makes when I'm on high fire.

KC_Jones

Dave in QCA said:

I wish I had someplace for flame decals on my boiler! I guess I'll just have to be content with the rumbling that it makes when I'm on high fire.

Are you talking about my flames? If so that's not a decal it's paint done by a good friend.

Dave in QCA

Yes, was talking about your flames! Nice paint job!

vr608

vr608 said:

Should I be using a slower vent in place of the #5? This is on a 4 tube, 12-section Arco radiator (the smaller sized ones).

Just looking to see if anyone has any opinion on vent size? This unit is about 21.6 EDR from my calculations.

ChrisJ

vr608 said:

vr608 said:

Should I be using a slower vent in place of the #5? This is on a 4 tube, 12-section Arco radiator (the smaller sized ones).

Just looking to see if anyone has any opinion on vent size? This unit is about 21.6 EDR from my calculations.

Depends on how much piping there is as well as how the rest of the system is balanced.

I have a Gorton 5 on a similar radiator, but I also have two 28sqft radiators with Gorton Cs on them.

vr608

All things being equal, I had thought that after adding the #D on the supply side I'd need a smaller vent on the other. Maybe I should try a #4? Its a fairly small radiator, and the #D definitely assisted in getting the 35+ ft runout fully vented quickly.

ChrisJ

Ah, yes I'd try a 4 or a 5 then.
Sorry.

vr608

ChrisJ said:

Ah, yes I'd try a 4 or a 5 then.
Sorry.

No problem, wasn't sure exactly how small I should go. I figure smaller is probably better in this particular configuration since the #D is doing most of the heavy lifting. I'll report back how it goes, colder weather forecast for the Northeast this weekend.

vr608

So it went down into the 30s last night and the radiator finally heated all the way across. I guess the boiler needs to run for a while in order for that to happen. For now, I've swapped the existing #6 (my bad for the earlier incorrect info @ChrisJ) for a #4, we'll see how it goes going forward.

I wonder how the OP made out with removing his main vent??

ChrisJ

You're going to find you need to experiment a little.
It took me a few years to get my system where it is. What surprised me is when I downfired the boiler, nothing was effected it just all heated a little slower which is what I wanted.

mookie3333

KC_Jones said:

I get the same number as Fred if the measurements on all the rads is the same. You have a Megasteam and the smallest one is rated for 288. So even if you have the smallest one it's 44% oversized. The problem is being on oil you can only go so small. Perhaps a pro would know if it's possible to downfire and tune the burner to get you closer, but I believe the oil will be a limiting factor. Let us know which one you have. I hope you don't have the 396 that would be horribly oversized.

Well, I finally moved the LWCO out of the way and popped open the door to find 2 baffles in place. This is one of the only distinguishing factors between the 288 and 396, the baffles being present on the 396 but not the 288. Looks like the boiler is horribly oversized. THAT being said, MINUS the actual beckett burner and baffles removed (and relief valve), is this boiler physically any different from the 288?? Can I change the relief valve, pull the baffles, and config the burner to turn this into a 288??

ChrisJ

mookie3333 said:

KC_Jones said:

I get the same number as Fred if the measurements on all the rads is the same. You have a Megasteam and the smallest one is rated for 288. So even if you have the smallest one it's 44% oversized. The problem is being on oil you can only go so small. Perhaps a pro would know if it's possible to downfire and tune the burner to get you closer, but I believe the oil will be a limiting factor. Let us know which one you have. I hope you don't have the 396 that would be horribly oversized.

Well, I finally moved the LWCO out of the way and popped open the door to find 2 baffles in place. This is one of the only distinguishing factors between the 288 and 396, the baffles being present on the 396 but not the 288. Looks like the boiler is horribly oversized. THAT being said, MINUS the actual beckett burner and baffles removed (and relief valve), is this boiler physically any different from the 288?? Can I change the relief valve, pull the baffles, and config the burner to turn this into a 288??

I can't help, but I'm hoping @Steamhead can.