Bangin all night

mungrin

Hello, I have a house that's around 100 years old. Last year was my first winter in it. Steam boiler is new but the pipes are old. On one radiator is banged all the time. The valve leaked and I shut it off but the valve would still get hot. Today I finally took off the valve (took me forever ) and I am going to try and replace it myself however when i looked down the pipe i can see water down there. I went in the basement but not really sure what too look for. SO my question is could the pipe be rusted inside blocking the condensation from return also causing the banging? Also when the valve was on,the radiator would get hot after all the banging. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I don't want any banging this summer.Thanks guys.

nicholas bonham-carter

your valve may be ok, and it is probably high pressure causing the problem. If you change the valve, the Spud must be changed also, as they are a matched pair.
Check your pressure with a 0-3 psi gauge, and make sure the pressuretrol is not allowing the pressure above 1.5 psi, for basic functionality, or 4 ounces, for economy, and comfort.--NBC

Fred

I assume this is a one pipe steam system (only feed pipe with valve on the one side of the radiator and a vent on the other side of the radiator) If so, Make sure the radiator has a slight pitch back towards that feed pipe. You can use checkers or quarters under the feet of the radiator to get that pitch. That will let condensation/water drain back to the boiler. Next, check the pipe that feeds that radiator, in the basement and make sure that pipe has a pitch back towards the steam Main. If it is pitched in the wrong direction, it will hold water and bang when the steam hits that cooled water.

mungrin

Thanks for the quick reply. I forgot to mention that I did pitch the radiator last winter and it never helped so I assumed it was something else and it is a single system. The pipe in the basement goes down then up then pitches down to the boiler.

mungrin

Pressure is at 1.5. Water in the pipe bothers me. Its backed up almost all the way up to the valave

mungrin

Here you can see it goes back up

mungrin

I think its at 1.5

Brewbeer

If there is water sitting in the pipe then the pipe pitch is wrong and needs to be corrected. The water in the pipe needs to be able to drain back to the main and eventually the boiler.

Abracadabra

put a level on that pipe and check the pitch. It's probably pitched toward the radiator.

mungrin said:

The pipe in the basement goes down then up then pitches down to the boiler.

That sounds like a trap. If so, that's your problem. Pipe shouldn't go down, then up, then back down.

mungrin

Thanks for the advice guys

ChrisJ

Is this a single pipe or two pipe system?
Can you supply a further out picture of the pipe shown? Something to show the whole story? I know it's not always possible, but it would help.

Can you also post some pictures of the boiler and all of the piping around it?

Jamie Hall

And another thing... on a one pipe steam system, do NOT turn the radiator valve off unless you are absolutely positive that it is 100 percent steam tight. Most of them aren't.

Therefor, if you want to turn off a radiator, turn the vent upside down -- but leave the valve wide open. Otherwise it will gurgle (if you are lucky) or bang (if you aren't, and even if the pipes are pitched correctly).

mungrin

I will try to take some pics tomorrow. It's so scary down there

Steamhead

mungrin said:

It's so scary down there

Not for us!

ChrisJ

I used to be a little creeped out in my basement until the first time the power went out when I was putting the boiler together.

You kinda get over such things in time.

KC_Jones

If I am interpreting your pictures and your description correctly that radiator run out has a water trap in it and that is surely the problem. "The pipe in the basement goes down then up then pitches down to the boiler."
So I am guessing it goes down through the floor, under the joist (first picture), then across and back up in the next joist bay (second picture). If that is so all that piping needs redone. Steam pipes should not go down then back up, water needs to drain so the pipes need a continuous pitch back towards the boiler. I agree take a picture further back so we can see the whole story and to clarify, but the way those pics look that is my take on your situation.

Fred

mungrin said:

Thanks for the quick reply. I forgot to mention that I did pitch the radiator last winter and it never helped so I assumed it was something else and it is a single system. The pipe in the basement goes down then up then pitches down to the boiler.

When you say the pipe goes down, then up, then down again, towards the boiler, someone did some pipe work on that run and didn't understand the principals of a one pipe system. Take a picture of one of the radiators too. Let's make sure it is a single pipe system

mungrin

You guys are awesome. I will take more pics later.

mungrin

Ok im starting to understand this now. The pipe goes up to clear a beam. Thats where the water trap is. Everything would have to be re routed im guessing. Ill probably install the new valve and just keep it closed and use a heater. Here are some pics before I ran out of there.

mungrin

Here's the other

Fred

Well, The near boiler piping isn't right either. How does it heat the rest of the house? I suspect there are other issues with uneven heat. You find the basement scary. You do go down there and check the water level in the boiler and do routine maintenance on it right? Rather than close that radiator off, why not fix that pipe once and for all? BTW, closing the valve may not silence the banging. That banging happens when the steam hits the pocket of cool/cold water and that's in that trap.

mungrin

I do not have uneven heating in the rest of the house. All the radiators heat up fully. Just the one that bangs. Yes I do go down there sometimes but that doesnt mean I like it. Re routing pipes is kinda out of my league also what os wrong with the near boiler piping?

Fred

I actually can't see how the mains are tied into the header. That may be OK and it looks like the equalizer does come off of the end of that header. The thing that puzzles me is that pipe that tees off of the boiler riser and drops down to the wet return. That shouldn't be there. Also there doesn't appear to be a Hartford loop at the wet return into the boiler. If one of the wet returns were to spring a leak, without a Hartford loop, the boiler could drain dry and if the Low water cut-off/probe wasn't working, the boiler could continue running dry and that would most likely crack the boiler block, not to mention a dry fired boiler is a dangerous situation. The other thing I can't clearly see is, on the right side of the picture, at the top, it looks like a main vent is on the end of your header. If that's the case, that shouldn't be there. It serves no purpose as that vent would close immediately when the boiler makes steam. Main vents should be at the end of the mains, after the last radiator run or on the dry returns.

mungrin

Thanks for the input. That doesnt sound good. Here's a better pic. I dont know what a hartford loop is. Do all steam boilers need one?

Dave0176

Looks like a lot of Hackers installed that system. The piping work is soo shoddy. That radiator needs to be dripped into a wet return, or at least repiped so condensate will flow back to the main. Its basically creating a loop seal like that. lol
The near boiler piping just looks like an atrocity.

Dave0176

Looks like that system is a Counterflow, which they improperly piped anyway.

vaporvac

Hi @mungrin . Another HO here. I know it's hard to hear your boiler is piped incorrectly and you're having banging, but you'll probably have to fix that to stop it.
Your boiler is piped all wrong. If you can manage to find out the model boiler you can look up its proper piping. Correct piping is necessary to get what's called dry steam. A properly piped boiler is cheaper to run, also. If money's tight it is often ok to wait until a new boiler is called for. However, if you don't take care of the current one, by doing a Low water cut-off blowdown every two weeks or so...and clean it, etc. you may need one sooner.

HOWEVER, a hartford loop is a safety issue required by most codes. My older boiler didn't have one, but any modern boiler does starting probably 50 yrs ago. Without one, you better be sure to check your LWCO frequently to be sure it works and to keep it clean.
Do you have someone to clean it this year? Where are you located. There may be someone who could help you.
colleen

mungrin

Thanks I will look up the model. I remember someone who came and saw it said I had a hartford loop. It concerns me now that I actually dont.

Fred

mungrin said:

Thanks for the input. That doesnt sound good. Here's a better pic. I dont know what a hartford loop is. Do all steam boilers need one?

A hartford loop is actually a pipe that rises from the wet return, typically up to 2 or 3 inches below the normal water level of the boiler and ties into the equalizer pipe. With that loop, should one of you wet returns leak, because the wet return ties in just below the normal water line, it will not let water run out of the boiler any lower than where that return is tied into the equalizer. Yes all boilers, with low wet returns should have one.

mungrin

Just making sure. I was under the impression thia was a hartford loop

mungrin

Last one and once again I appreciate all the help.

Dave0176

mungrin if you can stand back and take a wider picture of the header and some of the piping we'd be able to get better idea of what kind of a sytem you got.

It looks to be a counterflow, technically hartford loops aren't needed on a counterflow because the condensate is returning overhead through the steam main, counter to the flow of the steam. I however do use a hartford loop on a counterflow, the wet return drip off the main will drip to the floor or below the water line and rise up about 2" below the normal water line before returning into the equalizer. I run the header and equalizer like a normal parallel flow, then your system riser off the header into the top of the main.

Fred

mungrin said:

Just making sure. I was under the impression thia was a hartford loop

That's not a Hartford loop. It does rise from the floor but it only rises to the bottom of the boiler. Any leak at that pipe laying on the floor would let all the water run out of the boiler.

mungrin

Ah I see. It would need to be much taller

vaporvac

And from the looks of it it doesn't go directly into the boiler with a close nipple as it should. I've never actually seen such piping. Do you guys think it was a lame attempt at a HL?

As mentioned, some pics from further back and a few more angles would be helpful in id'ing your system.

mungrin

Its a crown boiler BSI series

ChrisJ

Nope no hartford loop there and no header either.
That all needs to be redone

mungrin

Thanks

Fred

My, My, My. It is piped worse than I originally thought. What looked like a header in your first pic clearly is not a Header and whoever put a vent on the end of that pipe surely didn't know what they were doing. It's a relatively new boiler and deserves to be piped correctly. It has a lot of life left in it and that piping can't stay that way for the next 10 or 15 years, until a new installation is required. If you have the Installation/owner's manual, look at the suggested neaqr boiler piping configuration. While those are minimum requirements, in terms of pipe size and header type (Drop header is a better operational option), the correct configuration and proper venting are critical.

mungrin

At least I have some time to get it done right. Think any of those pipes could be re-used in the proper installation? I wondernhow much thos will all cost to get it redone. Thanks again guys.

heathead

A look at the insulation on those pipes makes me think that it should be tested for asebstos.