Main air valve suggestions for one pipe steam system

Fred

Have him bring in the Burnham Rep and have your manual in hand. If the Rep suggests it is done right, ask him to but that in writing so you can go back to Burnham Hdqtrs. and find out why the I&O Manual misleads/misguides installers and give them a copy of what the Rep said.

mluna25

Thanks. I just want to clarify and to educate myself. Are there different ways to plumb a boiler or is there a standard for steam boilers? I took pictures as requested by Hattersguy. I hope this gives you guys better angels. Let me know if you need more info. I truly appreciate all the help! Thanks again.

mluna25

Burnham IN6 Model # SIN6LNI-LE2
36" of new pipe coming out of the boiler
26" of new pipe connecting to old pipe
5' 8" of old pipe (asbestos removed)
25' of old pipe encased in asbestos running between boiler and air vent
which then connects to about a 30" pipe which connects to the air vent
There is also a pipe that connects to the the pipes that run parrarel along the floor.
The circumference of the pipe and it looks like 7.5"

jonny88

IN6 for 7 rads.Did I read that right or am I missing something.

Fred

On an IN6, he really should have used both riser tappings out of the boiler but the minimum may be a single riser. There is no Header there and consequently no swing joints that allow for relieving stress on the boiler block end, attached to that riser. The riser should turn right or left (giving you a swing joint) and tie into a Header Header, that is at least one size larger than the riser(s). The Main(s) (I can't tell if you have one Main or two) but in any case, the steam mains should tie off of the top of the header at 45 degrees. If there is more than one Main, each should tie individually into the Header and the Equalizer should come off of the end of the Header. That Hartford loop should have a close nipple where it ties into the equalizer. That looks like a 3" or 4" nipple there. That will likely cause some water hammer.
There are different ways to build the Near Boiler piping but they all include a Header, be it a conventional header at least 24" (preferably more) above the water line or a Drop Header (where the Boiler Risers are at least 24" above the water line and then turn right or left and then turn down and tie into the dropped header. Equalizers always come off the end of the Header and Mains always angle off of the top of the hear. If using both boiler risers, the mains tie into the header after both boiler risers and they all tie in before the equalizer, on the end. Basically like the I&O manual show it.
On a one pipe system, Main vents should be at the ends of each main, somewhere after the last radiator run and before that main drops down into a wet return.
If you haven't paid this guy yet, don't until it looks like the pictures.

Jamie Hall

I can't seem to find the installation manual on line. However, you have it. If it says to use both outlets, they should have used both outlets. If it is recommended, but not required, then while it would be nice to have used both, they didn't and that's that. There are a number of ways of doing things for steam heat (or any heat, for that matter) which are nice, but which one can get by without doing. Most of the nice things cost more...

You need to check the manual for it.

You also need to insulate all steam carrying pipes!

KC_Jones

Is it telling that I have a pdf copy of the Burnham independence manual on my computer....and I don't have a Burnham boiler? It sounds like the installer is a hack and everyone involved knows this and they are trying to convince you it's fine because it's the fault of your house...am I close? The piping is wrong, which house it goes in doesn't have anything at all to do with it. I assume since the manual is hanging right there you have shown them page 18 showing the proper piping? Here is a list of the items I see.
1. The Hartford loop is supposed to have a close nipple where it connects to the equalizer piping. This is in the manual AND is COMMON SENSE for anyone that knows even a tiny bit about steam boilers.
2. There isn't a header of any kind.
3. The equalizer piping is connected to one side of a tee and the main is on the other side. This goes right along with the missing header. The function of the header is to separate the steam and water so you get dry steam into the system. The way yours is piped the water and steam need to go in 2 different directions, something it doesn't naturally want to do. It will suck water into your system which hurts efficiency and makes for a poor performing system.
4. I can't tell how many "mains" you have, but those are supposed to be tied into the header (that you are missing) individually.
5. If you haven't made final payment DON'T.

Most manufacturers have a clause in their warranty stating if the boiler isn't installed per manufacturers spec it can void your warranty. Yours isn't piped to spec so if you did have a failure under warranty I can assure you they will point at that piping and say NO. Then you are stuck. That isn't a situation I would want to be in.

jonny88

At the top of the 2in riser is that a bull headed tee kinda hard to see with the light.That should be changed.Equaliser should be 1.5 in it looks 1 1/4.Honestly and sorry to say it looks like it should be cut out and re done.I wish manufacturers would take out minimum piping requirements from literature and replace it with how they want it piped or are they afraid of a loss in sales if they require to much pipe work.Christ at least use both tappings supplies with boiler and throw away that plug they give you.Sorry for your situation.

mluna25

Thanks. I'll try to take pictures in the daytime for better viewing-it's pretty dark in my basement.

And YES! I pointed to the PDF and showed the contractor while the inspector was standing there. He said, something to the effect that because of my one pipe system the plumber piped it in this way. They said, "he is the one with the license and know what is best for the system." I said, that may be, but you can clearly see that he piped it wrong according to the manual. I even started quoting from it, but the contractor stood by his plumber. He was telling me that he would be happy to have the plumber explain why his installation is appropriate. If that's is what is going to happen next. I want to make sure I understand the process so that I can argue intellegently. Obviously, they are ignoring the manual.

All of what this contractor/plumber stated just does not ring true to me. It seems like they just don't want to take responsibility for their mistakes and do things correctly.

KC_Jones

It's either what you stated or they seriously don't know what they don't know.
Edit: I would also ask them if they see any of the following words written on your forehead.
Stupid
Patsy
Ignorant
Gullible
Uneducated
They may be "licensed" but the last time I checked that doesn't give them the right to abuse their customers...I don't think there is an actual license for that. If none of that works send them to this site. The people on here LITERALLY wrote the books on steam heating and are more than happy to educate them.

vaporvac

This is a super little video that explains basic steam piping, the how's, why's and where-to-for's. When you thoroughly understand it, you'll be miles ahead of that licensed plumber who may know plumbing, but doesn't know steam, and you'll feel competent to explain. A good steam man is also a good plumber, but it doesn't necessarily go the other way around.
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/near-boiler-piping-video/

I feel your pain as a homeowner; I had numerous pros tell me my ideas were stupid and wouldn't work and because I had a vapor system there was something magically difficult about hooking up the boiler. The boiler just makes steam...it doesn't care if you have one-pipe, two-pipe or vacuum. The near boiler piping help it make correct steam (dry). The original piping was already figured out for your system when it was installed, so unless it's been knuckleheaded don't worry about it.

P.S. You should increase that venting anyway, regardless of whatever piping you end up with. It will cost you money every cycle.
Colleen

nicholas bonham-carter

Ditto on the main venting.
Imagine you are water in the boiler, becoming steam. You change to vapor and because you have expanded, you flow up through the riser pipe, into the header, carrying lords of liquid water. The header being larger diameter enables you to slow down, and the excess liquid to fall out, and drain down the equalizer back to the boiler, leaving dry steam to rush up to the supplies to the system.
It is for this reason, that the manufacturers have required the piping arrangements they have.
Your installed piping does not have that ability to separate the water drops from the steam.
A visit from the Burnham rep would be useful to have him state that the as piped layout is incorrect.--NBC

Dave in QCA

mluna25, I agree with your sentiments that better regulations and inspection would help to prevent the problems that you have encountered. I believe the root of the problem lies in the fact that while there are basic requirements for a person to become a licensed plumber, there are no special qualifications for a steam fitter. As far as licensing and supervision, there is no distinction between plumber and steam fitter. However, a qualified plumber that has no experience or knowledge of steam fitting will be completely unable to do the job. But how's a customer to know? Well, I think its amazing that this little website as taking a leadership role in issue and hopefully over time will produce a measurable improvement.

jonny88

Another note,if you went through NYSERDA you can complain and they will send field inspectors to job site.The last thing a NYSERDA contractor needs is a problem like this.Ultimately it is his responsibility as he hired plumbers.Unfortunatly you are not the only victim .

Dave in QCA

I have taken the drawing from the I&O Manual for your boiler model IN-6. I have erased the connections for the second riser. I agree with all comments that it would be better to have two, but Burnham does not require it on this model. As much trouble as you're having getting the contractor to do the minimum requirement correctly, there's no way they're going to do extra.
I have also added labels in RED text. The contractor obviously has no concept of what a header is. It is a fundamental requirement of a steam boiler, ESPECIALLY ON 1-PIPE STEAM. It's purpose is to separate the carryover of water droplets coming from the boiler riser and allow them to return via the equalizer. Horizontal travel of both the steam and the water in the bottom of the header pipe, with both running in the same direction is fundamental requirement of any proper header.
You have stated that they installed a riser that is 36" in length. I can see in your pictures that it going all the way up to the level of your steam main. THAT is wrong! As per the installation diagram, the 90 degree el at the top of the riser must be 24" above the Normal Water Line. You have plenty of ceiling height.... so 24" above the top of the boiler would be even better. There is STILL plenty of room for a proper header and proper vertical connection to your steam main.
Now, your contractor apparently does not understand the necessity of the horizontally oriented header, having completely eliminated it in his installation. Then.... at the connection of the Hartford Loop, where horizontal piping is UNDEZIRABLE, and the manufactures specifies a WYE connection, or an alternate of a TEE and a 90 degree ELBOW, connected by a CLOSE NIPPLE, the installing contractor has substituted a longer nipple. This is wrong and in certain conditions is prone to producing water hammer. The manufacturer's instructions have a reason.

I hope this helps you in your communication with the contractor. In your position, I would WELCOME an inspection from a Burnham Factory Rep. Don't accept some guy from the supply house as a Burnham Rep either. This has to be someone who works for Burnham! Good Luck... you will get this worked out. Sorry it is so difficult.

Dave in QCA

Just wanted to add the comment of something that should be obvious. But, given the limited knowledge of your contractor, it should be stated. The drawing in the above post shows the swing arm running to the front of the boiler. It could be oriented to the back as well. THAT makes no difference.

mluna25

Dave,
This drawing is awesome! Thank you so much for the breakdown. That's exactly what I needed and much more than I expected. WOW!

Jonny88, I actually just had my inspection yesterday with the NYSERDA inspector. The contractor can be there if they choose to. Aside, from the contractor having a very bitter attitude, as if I am in the wrong (after 3 years of an endless botch after botch job) the boiler didn't even turn on. Of course that wasn't his doing either, he tried to blame the NEST thermostat....so now, I have to wait on the inspectors report and to hear NYSERDAs findings. The inspector could not share with me any details, but did suggest that I share this conversation link with the high ups at NYSERDA, who reached out to me. This of course, was after the contractor started arguing with me about the piping. l have to hope that NYSERDA will act in my best interest. Fingers crossed.

Colleen-Great video thanks!
Nicholas, already on the venting, but I wanted to wait for my inspection, as the contractor should have changed this out, as well as insulated the piping in my opinion.

Thanks all! Great info!

mluna25

Just some clearer photos as promised (daytime). Thanks again.

mluna25

Hi Everyone,

Just an update and not a very good one. I am still working with NYSERDA and am in the awaiting the inspectors report. However, after the contractors, electrician finally got my NEST Thermostat working correctly (about 6 weeks) I was getting no heat because my radiators were all spitting out water, even after putting in all new vents. Anyway, of course the contractor ignored my phone calls and emails, but NYSERDA ordered them to come to my home and correct the issue.
This is what the contractors so called expert plumber said:
"The plumber informed me that I would need to pay an additional $1200.00 to install a new return line. He said that my system is filled with “sludge” and the radiators are retaining water. He said there is no way to clean out the system and that in his opinion that would be the only solution to fix the no heat issue. I asked if I were to do this would he guarantee a functioning system, to which he replied, NO, he could not make a guarantee. So, he basically left stating that he could not fix the issue without getting paid more money to do more work and warned me that winter will be coming soon.
He also insisted that he plumbed the boiler correctly and that both the plubming and venting had nothing to do with my old faulty return lines.
I reported the issue to NYSERDA, but wanted real expert opinions on the facts of this issue. Could this be really what is going on? Or is more of what so many of you have pointed out that the plumbing of the boiler is the issue. Anyway I can prove this to NYSERDA?
Thanks everyone in advance.
Michele

BobC

I can't see how that boiler can produce dry steam piped like that, it is not piped per the manufacturers piping diagram.

As to the return, why cant it be flushed out or perhaps snaked out? How long is this return, can you take some pictures of the return pipe?

Bob

mluna25

Hi Bob,
I asked him that very question. He said there is no way to flush the system. I will take a photo tomorrow (it basically runs the same length as the top pipe which is listed earlier in the forum topic. If I get home early, or over the weekend, because it will be rather dark tonight. The plumber stands behind his work. I even showed him Dave in QCA's drawing and gave him all the technical lingo (you guys what have thought I was a steamfitter). The plumber said that I don't know what I am talking about and said that all that I showed him from Dave was inaccurate (of course). So, he basically left me with the only option as having to pay him more money to make the return line a bigger pipe. This just sounded suspect to me. However, I like to make sure I am giving someone the beneifit of the doubt and wanted to check it out with you guys.

KC_Jones

It's pretty simple, for what he says to be true the boiler would have to be going off on low water on a very regular basis. What he is saying is the steam is going into the system and condensing, then it can't get back to the boiler because of a blocked return line. So if that is really happening then the boiler goes off on low water because water isn't getting back to the boiler because it's sitting in the radiator. I highly doubt any of this is happening. Or could it be his completely incorrect piping is sending wet steam into the system, this wet steam is getting to the radiators and the water is spitting out of the vent AKA a very common problem on a steam system that he should be completely aware of. Oh wait he says his incorrect piping is correct so he obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. Honestly if it was at all possible I wouldn't let said person into my house ever again. I would hire someone who KNEW **** they were doing and then sue the original installer for the cost of all the repairs. Possibly another option is to make it clear to the NYSERDA inspector that this contractor has zero intention of doing a proper install and you want to know where to go from here because they are flat out refusing to fix it correctly. Sorry for the rant I am MASSIVELY pissed off for you as a fellow homeowner. We should NEVER EVER have to go through this crap. Oh and the threats of cold weather presents as an OBVIOUS shyster.

KC_Jones

You can easily prove it's wrong by showing the inspector the manual....or perhaps all parties involved are illiterate?

Fred

It is piped so wrong and they should have flushed the returns out before they installed the new boiler. Is the boiler shutting down on low water? If not then the returns can't be plugged. What is the Pressuretrol set at? If the pressure is set too high, in an attempt to compensate for that lousy piping, that can also push water into the system and out the vents.

ChrisJ

That's classic,
The drawing from Burnham's manual is inaccurate but this plumber apparently knows better.

Perhaps getting someone that can actually do their job and take the previous guy to court is the next step?

KC_Jones

To the OP the plumber is clear that the diagram you showed him was from the manufacturer of that boiler correct? So he knows more about piping than a company that probably has spent millions on R&D to figure out the best way to pipe a boiler?! That's amazing, he is in the wrong business if he knows that much. Could you please refer him to this site so we may educate him about everything that he knows nothing about?

mluna25

Fred said:

It is piped so wrong and they should have flushed the returns out before they installed the new boiler. Is the boiler shutting down on low water?
If not then the returns can't be plugged. What is the Pressuretrol set at? If the pressure is set too high, in an attempt to compensate for that lousy piping, that can also push water into the system and out the vents.

Hi Fred,
There are two pressuretrol's -One is set one up high at 5.0 and other is low. The one that is set high, shuts the boiler off when it is set at a lower pressure. It is on the side of the boiler where the drain valves are. The lower pressuretrol is on the opposite side of the boiler.
I agree, I am convienced that it is the piping. I never had a problem like this with my cluncky 1934 oil boiler, the steam worked great and my house was nice and warm.

mluna25

KC_Jones said:

To the OP the plumber is clear that the diagram you showed him was from the manufacturer of that boiler correct? So he knows more about piping than a company that probably has spent millions on R&D to figure out the best way to pipe a boiler?! That's amazing, he is in the wrong business if he knows that much. Could you please refer him to this site so we may educate him about everything that he knows nothing about?

Yes! He was aware, he was very angered by it and gave me a lot of BS and double talk. Very sad.

KC_Jones

mluna25 said:

KC_Jones said:

To the OP the plumber is clear that the diagram you showed him was from the manufacturer of that boiler correct? So he knows more about piping than a company that probably has spent millions on R&D to figure out the best way to pipe a boiler?! That's amazing, he is in the wrong business if he knows that much. Could you please refer him to this site so we may educate him about everything that he knows nothing about?

Yes! He was aware, he was very angered by it and gave me a lot of BS and double talk. Very sad.

I am guessing he is enraged because he has officially been caught with his pants down. Here is another possibility. Are they digging their heels in with you because if they admit fault then the NYSERDA inspector will reevaluate all their past installs and it could cost them money? Might be worth discussing with the NYSERDA inspector. I would dig my heals in if I was you. Make them correct the piping and then they will see how much different the system runs. Sometimes they don't know what they don't know.

Dave in QCA

OK, This is Dave, who offered up the drawing. I DID NOT draw it myself, it was copied directly from the Burnham Installation manual and according to Burnham, it is NOT the ideal piping, it is the minimum acceptable piping. What I did to the drawing was erase the second riser coming from the boiler as it is not mandatory for your size of boiler, (although if it were mine I'd put it in anyway). Secondly, I added labels to the various parts of the near boiler piping, as a point of assistance for you and your installer. You, as a homeowner could not be expect to know the boiler terminology and it is pretty apparent from the work done so far that your installer is not familiar with basic steam boiler installation either.
An inspection from a Burnham factory rep would certainly put an end to the arguing. They will insist on their minimum piping requirements. Of course, I think you can do as others have suggested and demand that NYSERDA hire someone to complete the installation that understands proper steam boiler installation.
I sure am sorry this is happening to you. What a mess.

mluna25

Hi Dave,
Thanks. The plumber and the contractor were aware that they were "cheat sheets" helping me to explain the problems to them and that they were from the manuel. They both repeatedly said that they are the experts, whereas, people on this forum are virtual and their credentials cannot be trusted. I wish I had one of you guys here during the inspection. That sure would have been interesting. Well, I shared many of the comments, the link to this forumn and also similar sentiments to NYSERDA. I do hope they resolve the issue, otherwise I will have to take legal action. I am also planning on alerting the attorney general and several other agencies for their horrific practices. This is just the latest horror over a three year period of fighting for heat! It is truly outrageous!

Dave in QCA

I just want to make two more points.
1. Any competent installer would have checked the return lines to verify they were not full of gunky residue. If they were, they should have been flushed out. It's not hard. Don't take a snake, generally a garden hose works just fine.
2. They say that they cannot install the boiler according to the piping diagram. This is a direct admission that they are not qualified to install the boiler in the first place. Of course, it can be done. It's not difficult at all for someone who knows what their doing.

vaporvac

Almost all the steam people I spoke to locally are aware of this site and value it. Dan H is considered the guru of steam nationally. The guy from my current company regularly visits here and is excited to learn. The fellow that installed my burners is one of the pros. The fact that your guys diss the info found here says it all. I'm sure NYSERDA will get to the bottom of it, but this situation makes me so mad!

Your returns probably needed a flushing which they should have done as a matter of course with the install. The fact that you didn't have these problems before tells me it isn't the problem. That would be a lot of water to back up into your vents! Their explanation is ridiculous. I still don't see why they can't pu a cleanout in the pipes. It's not that much work.

KC_Jones

The owner of this site LITERALLY wrote the current books on steam heating what more credentials does this contractor need? How many books on steam heating has he written, if none than his credentials are WAY more questionable than the people on this site. Oh and we aren't stealing people's money either.

Bio

This is very unfortunate and upsetting
What I'll do in your case is bring all parties involved along with a Burnham rep and go trough the installation specifications, awfully the Burnham rep will tell them what a header a equalizer should look like, at least is what's expected, good luck!

KC_Jones

A rep isn't a bad idea, but we have seen on here and other places that the manufacturer doesn't always know what is going on either. That is potentially a roll of the dice.

vr608

This is a very unfortunate situation, and definitely something I feared happening when I had my project done. My two cents; if possible, perhaps one of our local members would be willing to stop by and put together a write-up of what is wrong with the piping, along with a quote to have it resolved?

Fred

mluna25 said:

Fred said:

It is piped so wrong and they should have flushed the returns out before they installed the new boiler. Is the boiler shutting down on low water?
If not then the returns can't be plugged. What is the Pressuretrol set at? If the pressure is set too high, in an attempt to compensate for that lousy piping, that can also push water into the system and out the vents.

Hi Fred,
There are two pressuretrol's -One is set one up high at 5.0 and other is low. The one that is set high, shuts the boiler off when it is set at a lower pressure. It is on the side of the boiler where the drain valves are. The lower pressuretrol is on the opposite side of the boiler.
I agree, I am convienced that it is the piping. I never had a problem like this with my cluncky 1934 oil boiler, the steam worked great and my house was nice and warm.

That Pressuretrol that is set at 5 PSI probably has a manual reset button on it. It is there to shut the boiler down if the primary pressuretrol fails and the pressure get up to 5 PSI. The primary Pressuretrol should be set at .5 (half pound) Cut-in and a differential of 1 PSI. It should shut the boiler down if/when the pressure gets up to 1.5PSI (which really shouldn't happen very often unless the boiler is over-sized or it is extremely cold outside and the boiler runs for an extended period of time) the .5 cut-in is to allow the burners to come back on when the system pressure gets back down to .5 PSI or less.
Like the others have already said, this installer doesn't know what he is doing andsomeone who does should be brought in to properly install that boiler. This guy should be banned from installing steam boilers. Unfortunately we don't know what he might be good at but anyone who considers using him should give pause and consider their options. I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation but stand your ground and get it done right.

mluna25

Thanks everyone for your supportive comments and suggestions. I am certainily open to anyone in the Queens, New York City area that would like to offer their consultation. I contacted Burnman directly, but no word from them. I stood my ground with Honewell/NYSERDA, and demanded that the contractor fix my heating issues and requested a copy of the NYSERDA report. This way I can see what NYSERDA's scope of "identified" probelms include. I think that might be a good place to start. I also requested that I get a competent installer, but I don't know how much influence they have on that. I might have to reach out to the city's consumer affairs department or a lawyer to assist as well. The contractor has to provide a written plan of action to address the many issues. Let's see what I receive next week.

At the very least at least I have this site available as resource. I couldn't imagine what it would be like right now, if you guys weren't available with all the information that I ask or need about steam heat.
THANKS TO ALL! I hope my story can help prevent future bad installs from happening!

mluna25

which really shouldn't happen very often unless the boiler is over-sized or it is extremely cold outside and the boiler runs for an extended period of time)

I would say that the boiler is oversized for my home. That's a whole other issue that I identified to NYSERDA. If they need to install a new boiler, perhaps that will be where I can get the plumbing done correctly.

It shut down after testing it. The "expert" plumber said it was because the Pressuretrol that is set at .5 PSI probably and has a manual reset button on it was set "too low" he put it up to .5 (not 5 sorry).

I can't really test the heat out because all I get is flooding around my floors.