Main air valve suggestions for one pipe steam system

KC_Jones

Ahhh I see now. I was thinking this was already buried in the concrete. If you want to replace it for crud that's one thing, up sizing makes no sense to me. If it was mine and I thought it was full of crud I would re-pipe it in copper 1" and be done with it. No digging no clearance issues. If that is a door I would also consider some kind of protection for the pipe in case someone decides to step on it. That's just my opinion and I am sure others will chime in. Oh and only use copper below the water line!

Fred

1-1/4" is a lot better. If it is 30+ years old, I think I'd go ahead and do it and be done with it. Who you use should be who you feel most comfortable with (probably not the guy that put you through all this grief to get the right boiler and get it piped correctly).

mluna25

I don't necessarily want to replace it. It was recommended by the plumber who did the job...stating that this is the reason why I am getting dirty water trapped in my radiators and the all the dirty water is coming back to my boiler (water hammering, etc.). Apparently, the rep from Burnman agreed with the idea of changing the return line. But again, it's my option. If I need to replace it because they are old or this is the reason for my radiator issues. I am happy to, but I think it would be better to hire someone who knows what they are doing. I saw lots of recomendations for people in my area in NYC on this forum. Maybe, I should call one of them for a second opinon.

KC_Jones

mluna25 said:

Maybe, I should call one of them for a second opinon.

It's never a bad idea to get another set of eyes on the situation. I will say wet returns are replaced or at least cleaned on replacement pretty frequently so if it needs replaced that wouldn't be surprising.

Fred

I really doubt that that wet return was causing any hammer, unless it is clogged to the point it was causing water to back up into the main. Most of you hammer was probably the near boiler piping and the boiler needing several good skims, which you must do or have done a week or two after the replacement boiler/plumbing is installed. It sounds like the only issue in your mind is who to use. Get a couple more sets of eyes on the return piping and get them to quote. Just keep in mind that if you do replace that piping, it too will cause you to have to skim the boiler so i'd want everything done at the same time, if it were me. Since you have to use the original installer, per Burnham, if the quotes are similar, I'd probably let their plumber to that return piping. It's below the water line and he can't really screw that up as it relates to pitch and you can make sure he puts it back like the old one came out. Besides, you have Burnham's attention now so I suspect he's going to want to do it right this time. Ask the Burnham Rep to schedule a final review once all the work is done.

mluna25

Ok. that sounds fair. On another note, with the new boiler-I need to make sure he puts in a skim tap? Is that the correct term? And I need to make sure he puts a flush at the end of the return pipes. right?

Fred

Yes, a skim Port on the boiler and drain/flush-out valves at the ends of the wet returns.

mluna25

Got it! Also, should I go with a 1" return to fit the doorway or the 1-1/4" that he said he needs to cut into my floor?

Fred

My preference would be 1-1/4 if I were doing it for myself. 1" can get clogged fairly easily.

KC_Jones

Why after 60-70-80-100 years, however old the house is would that pipe suddenly need to be upsized? A single 1" wet return pipe can support 700 EDR. That is bigger than your whole system, it is also the recommended minimum no matter what they system size. Up sizing makes ZERO sense.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

Why after 60-70-80-100 years, however old the house is would that pipe suddenly need to be upsized? A single 1" wet return pipe can support 700 EDR. That is bigger than your whole system, it is also the recommended minimum no matter what they system size. Up sizing makes ZERO sense.

I said my preference would be 1-1/4. Don't dog me for my preferences, Geez I have a 1-1/4" wet return and a 1" drip leg and I can tell you if there are any elbows/turns and if there are no drains/flush outs, there will be an issue sooner or later. As you said, it is the recommended minimum, we often recommend a step above minimum. In any case either will work, I just like the added benefit that a larger pipe provides as it relates to crud build-up/blockages on wet returns and as good as intentions are, we never get around to the tasks of flushing them annually, like we should.

SWEI

Don't forget that the OD of 1" copper is smaller than that of 1" Schedule 40 steel pipe. You might even have room for some protection (or a tidbit of insulation) there.

I'd flush the existing returns and see how things go.

nicholas bonham-carter

I would just put off the new return pipe installation until later, when the system is running well, or cut the bottom off the door for a bigger pipe, which could be copper.
The dirty water which may be causing some of your problems is NOT related to the return.
Make sure the new boiler is sized by measuring the EDR of the rads.
Make sure it is piped according to the Burnham manual.
Make sure a skim port is installed, and that the plumber shows you how to use it. It takes a lot of time. Chemicals in the water will not replace skimming!!!!!
Buy a low-pressure gauge, (0-36 ounces), and have that put on next to the pressuretrol.
Measure your pipes, and buy enough Gorton #2 main vents, and have him put them on.-NBC

vaporvac

Yes, I noticed you mentioned the new boiler is being sized to the system. Does that mean the EDR?

mluna25

The Burnman technical team said in their letter that the first did a heat calculation of the existing steam radiation in my home and found that there was less than 200 sq. ft. if radiation. Thus the smaller BTU input with a steam rating of 271 sq. feet.

KC_Jones

And the originally installed an IN6 rated at 450?! I have to ask, is the original installer still talking like they know exactly what they are doing? Still trying to blame other things for the issues? Can't even size the boiler properly (super easy I think) in my mind means he has no legs to stand on anymore.

mluna25

KC_Jones said:

And the originally installed an IN6 rated at 450?! I have to ask, is the original installer still talking like they know exactly what they are doing? Still trying to blame other things for the issues? Can't even size the boiler properly (super easy I think) in my mind means he has no legs to stand on anymore.

Of course, they are. The Burhman tech person indicated that they reviewed how to properly install the header, etc. with the contractor and plumber. Apparently, the plumber and contractor were griping about my spending time searching for information on this forums...."missing the real issues" Despite the fact that they had installed the wrong boiler and mispiped it not once, but twice. This is actually my 3rd chance for them to get it right.
The first time they used copper pipes and hired another plumber who installed the boiler without permits...that was a nightmare.

The 2nd time, they hired a "better" plumber than the first, but we know where that lead,
At the least they could own up to their error and learn how to do things right....at least I have recourse....they say the 3rd time is a charm. I can only hope!

vr608

"missing the real issues"

This is what I hate most about contractors, never giving the homeowner the benefit of the doubt and thinking we're stupid for trying to better educate ourselves. This sounds like a total nightmare, and kudos for you for sticking with them and holding the parties accountable. Its your money so with each misstep you have to force them to regain their credibility.

With that said, I'm a bit worried about the boiler selection, since it will put you about 35% oversized based on the numbers you indicated above. I can't recall whether this was indicated in the thread or not, but did someone actually measure each of the radiators or did they just perform a heat-loss on the building to come up with the 200 EDR number?

mluna25

vr608 said:

"missing the real issues"

This is what I hate most about contractors, never giving the homeowner the benefit of the doubt and thinking we're stupid for trying to better educate ourselves. This sounds like a total nightmare, and kudos for you for sticking with them and holding the parties accountable. Its your money so with each misstep you have to force them to regain their credibility.

With that said, I'm a bit worried about the boiler selection, since it will put you about 35% oversized based on the numbers you indicated above. I can't recall whether this was indicated in the thread or not, but did someone actually measure each of the radiators or did they just perform a heat-loss on the building to come up with the 200 EDR number?

I can find out via NYSERDA.

mluna25

Oh, actually, I recall that they did measure the radiators.

Dave in QCA

mluna25, I'm glad this as turned out well for you. I was confident that a representative from Burnham would be quite helpful.

In regard to your question, your return line probably is due to be replaced, but it is not the cause of your problems. I doubt if it is the cause of the dirty water in the boiler either. That is much more likely to be caused by the oils that have never been skimmed out. For certain, that is the cause of foaming that is probably causing a lot of the hammer and the vents spitting too. So, if it were me your place, I would thank the plumber/contractor for their recommendation and offer, but decline. It is easier to keep them on the original project until it is correct, rather than introduce a whole new factor into the equation. Then, when all is done and working fine, I'd get some bids to replace the wet returns in the spring.

Interesting story here. A contractor no doubt complains to Burnham rep, when introduced, about the problem homeowner who is trying to run the show from stuff found on the internet. Burnham rep looks at the system and the boiler.... says, "wrong boiler!. You gotta put in the right size. Wrong piping too, you have to do it right. "

So, the "experienced" contractor who knows all about this stuff, puts in a boiler that is 2 sizes too big and piped in completely wrong. Hmmm. People then hate their steam heat and eventually have it ripped out. So sad. I'm glad it's turning out right for you! You're gonna love your steam heat when it is all working right again.

mluna25

New Boiler Install.

Here is the new "replacement" boiler install. Please let me know your thoughts. Let me know if you need more pictures. I can take brighter ones in the morning.

Fred

It looks good! Did they make sure you have enough Main venting?

KC_Jones

Now the real question...how is it working?

mluna25

Well, there electrician is suppose to come tomorrow to power it up...and then we test...I insisted on a skim port...they tried to hustle me and tell me that there was another port they use for skimming...sigh. Well at least the piping is correct now! Yeah!

mluna25

Fred said:

It looks good! Did they make sure you have enough Main venting?

How would I check that? Do you need photos?

Fred

mluna25 said:

Fred said:

It looks good! Did they make sure you have enough Main venting?

How would I check that? Do you need photos?

Measure your mains. A very good rule of thumb is the equalivent of one Gorton #2 vent for every 20 feet of 2" main. Each main (looks like you only have one) should be vented. So if you have 40 feet of main, put two gorton #2's at the end of the main, anywhere after the last radiator run. One Gorton #2 is equal to 3.5 Gorton #1's or 2 Hoffman #75's. The Gorton #2 is tall (about 7") If you don't have the headroom, have them build an antler and mount the multiple Gorton #1's or Hoffman 75's.

mluna25

No, this plumber did nothing about the Main Vent. In his word, he said, "it doesn't matter."
I had another plumber who is more experienced with steam come last week to check that out and they recommend changing the main vent. However, he wanted to wait until the replacement boiler was installed to see how it works. He will come back to upgrade the main vent and fix any remaining issues most likely next week.

Fred

Make sure it has enough venting on the mains. The faster you get the air out of the mains, the faster steam gets to the radiators, the less fuel you waste pushing air out of the mains. He really doesn't nee to see how the new boiler works to determine how much venting you need. Venting is a matter of calculating the amount of air you need to evacuate in the mains.

KC_Jones

mluna25 said:

No, this plumber did nothing about the Main Vent. In his word, he said, "it doesn't matter."

The depth of his knowledge is roughly that of a wading pool....and that's being generous.

mluna25

Today, the electrcian came and powered up the new boiler. Seems like all the issues are resolved.
So far, everything is working GREAT!
1) No more banging of pipes,
2) no, spitting radiators
3) and the house is pretty warm after the first run.
In fact, all the radiators are super quiet and you hardly hear that they are on.

I really want to thank EVERYONE who gave me such great advise and information to help solve my problems. I am SOOOOOO HAPPY that this was able to work out!

Just one more issue:
Tomorrow the plumber is returning to put in the installation.
The skim port wasn't accessable. The plumber said, that you skim later after the boiler is on for awhile....He said he skimmed from another port?
So tomorrow, I should:
1) insist that the skim port is put on and ask to be shown how to skim the boiler?

Anything else?

Also:
Is putting a main vent something that I can do on my own?

Fred

Insist on the skim port. That boiler will need several skims within the next week or two and, going forward, anytime you need/have any pipe work done on the system, a skim will be required.
Putting vents on is easy if you have a place where they can go, like a tee or fitting at the end of a main that can be used. If there are old vents there, they can be replaced or added to with a few nipples, tees and elbows.

Bio

I'm glad all work out for you, heatinghelp at it's best!