Main air valve suggestions for one pipe steam system

Fred

Do all the radiators spit water from the radiator vents? Have you put a level on them to make sure they are all pitched slightly back towards the steam supply pipe? As horrible as that near boiler piping is, it shouldn't spit that much water, on one heating cycle, with the mild temps we are having. What kind of radiator vents did you say you put on those radiators? This whole installation is just a disaster. Need to start all over, I'm afraid.

vaporvac

Is the boiler flooded by any chance? Can you see the level in the site glass?

mluna25

Fred said:

Do all the radiators spit water from the radiator vents? Have you put a level on them to make sure they are all pitched slightly back towards the steam supply pipe? As horrible as that near boiler piping is, it shouldn't spit that much water, on one heating cycle, with the mild temps we are having. What kind of radiator vents did you say you put on those radiators? This whole installation is just a disaster. Need to start all over, I'm afraid.

I put all new Gorton Vents on them according to the directions in one of the articles I purchased on this site.
It seems to happen in mostly all the radiators, but especially the ones furthest from the radiators....and upstairs. It seems worse on the ones that are furthest away from the boiler.
Sometimes, everything just stays cold and nothing happens but banging.

mluna25

vaporvac said:

Is the boiler flooded by any chance? Can you see the level in the site glass?

My basement is a little dark, but I snapped a photo. The water is all the way up and that dark stuff looks like some kind of sludge.

Fred

The water in the sight glass should be half to 2/3's the way up the glass, depending on what the manual says. If it is all the way up, it is over filled and that may be the issue with the spitting radiator vents and part of the problem with the banging (part probably due to the way it is piped). Drain the water out of the boiler to the proper level (per the manual) and fire it up and see if the radiators still spit. Once that piping is corrected, the boiler will need several skims to get all the oils off of the surface of the water in the boiler but we'll deal with that issue when you get the piping corrected. That brown area in the sight glass is probably some of the oils from the new piping that has washed into the glass. Any good installer would have cleaned the boiler before he left and made arrangements to come back after the boiler ran for a couple weeks to skim it or, at a minimum, shown you how to skim it. I would be surprised if they even put a skim port on that boiler for you.

BobC

Aside from near boiler piping issues, lets get back to basics.

First make sure the pressure is no more than 2PSI and hopefully more like 1.5PSI.

The sight glass should be cleaned and the boiler should be flushed out and refilled with clean water.

Is the water in the sight glass bouncing up and down a lot when it's making steam? Has the boiler been skimmed? After any boiler replacement or replacing of pipes the boiler has to be skimmed to get rid of any oils in the water.

If there is a lot of banging it sounds like some piping is not pitched right. Go over all the horizontal steam pipes you can reach and make sure they are pitched so water can find it's way back to the boiler. If water is trapped at the bottom of a steam carrying pipe that can cause banging and water fountaining out of the vents.

Bob

mluna25

BobC said:

Aside from near boiler piping issues, lets get back to basics.

First make sure the pressure is no more than 2PSI and hopefully more like 1.5PSI.
Check!

The sight glass should be cleaned and the boiler should be flushed out and refilled with clean water.
How do I do this?

Is the water in the sight glass bouncing up and down a lot when it's making steam? Yes it jumps a lot.

Has the boiler been skimmed? They said they did, but I am going to say NO!
After any boiler replacement or replacing of pipes the boiler has to be skimmed to get rid of any oils in the water.

If there is a lot of banging it sounds like some piping is not pitched right.
The inspector checked all the pipes pitch and I checked all the radiators over the summer to make sure everything was correct, plus I put on all new Groton vents.

Go over all the horizontal steam pipes you can reach and make sure they are pitched so water can find it's way back to the boiler. If water is trapped at the bottom of a steam carrying pipe that can cause banging and water fountaining out of the vents.
I'll double check

Bob

mluna25

OK, so I flushed some of the water out until the glass is now half way full. Alot of dirty cam out. But it is running clear now
On the end of my return line (see pic) there is an old valve. I'm not sure it is working, but technically, wouldn't this be used to train the wet return?

Fred

mluna25 said:

OK, so I flushed some of the water out until the glass is now half way full. Alot of dirty cam out. But it is running clear now
On the end of my return line (see pic) there is an old valve. I'm not sure it is working, but technically, wouldn't this be used to train the wet return?

It would most likely be used to attach a hose to and wash the wet return out, if there is a way to open the other end of the horizontal wet return pipe. That spigot is too high up on the return to drain anyting out of the horizontal pipe, unless you have a way to back flush the horizontal.

mluna25

Hi Everyone,
I tried Bob's suggestions at least flushing out some of the sludge and bringing the water level down. I got less water coming out of the air vents as a result and in fewer radiators (at least no puddle, but they are still spitting water) The steam seems to travel a little bit better from radiator to radiator.
There is still some banging and water though. What does that suggest?

Fred

It suggests that some of the pipes and/or radiators where the banging originates are pitched in the wrong direction and water is pooling in those areas of piping or in those radiators.

mluna25

PS-After the flush, it seems that 2 furthest from the boiler on the first floor, spit out the most water. Now, the 4 radiators upstairs are not spitting water and the banging is less upstairs.

vaporvac

I know you're waiting to resolve the piping issues, but is there anyway to skim this yourself? Is there any sort of skim port?

Fred

Check the pitch of those 2 radiators and make sure they are slightly tilted towards the pipe that feeds them. Also, look at the pipes that feed them in the basement as well as that end of the main. It is quite possible that, in the process of putting that piping in for the new boiler that they pulled the main or those radiator run-outs out of pitch.

mluna25

vaporvac said:

I know you're waiting to resolve the piping issues, but is there anyway to skim this yourself? Is there any sort of skim port?

I'm not sure. I was never explained any of the parts, but is this it? Would I just connect a hose to the end and turn the water on to back flow the dirty water?

As for the radiator, here is how it looks with the level on it. Do I have the get both bubble leaning towards the pipe. The middle bubble looks good. The one on the side, looks like I would have to lift the two front legs up slightly.
I flushed all the dirty water out and just saw the McDonnell and Miller Boiler Water Control card that says, Important, give to homeowner...flush new installed boiler 2x's to 3 times a week when first installed and 1x's a week there after. That really ticks me off, because the "expert" plumber told me I never will need to flush the system. So frustrating.

Fred

Radiator pitch, front to back of radiator isn't an issue. Pitch needs to be across the length of the radiator. Looking at your level, it looks like there is no pitch from the vent side of the radiator back to the pipe side (looks level to me) Looks like all your pitch is front to back???
Second item, Are your wet returns below the cement floor? That valve you are showing will allow you to flush out of the wet return only if there is another valve at the other end of the wet return or at the boiler somewhere near the hartford loop that you can hook a hose up to, to back flush the return. In any case, that is not a skim port. The skim port will be on the boiler, probably a capped 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" pipe either on the side or front of the boiler. It can often have a ball valve on it but I doubt that this installer did that. The skim port should be up around the level of the top of the normal water line in the boiler so as to let you very slowly manually add water to the boiler and skim oils off of the surface of the water.

mluna25

I'll look to see where the skim port might be.
As far as the radiator. The level is laying on the top of the radiator and the bubble is in the middle with leaning slighty towards the pipe. I put new coasters under it, I think the piece of wood was warped. The other one, was leaning the wrong way, and I fixed it, now they seem to be good. It seemed to fix the problem of the spitting water. I think a good cleaning would really help.
So, let's saythere is no skim port, how would it get cleaned?

Fred

If there is no skim port, you should see a Knockout on one of the panels somewhere around the boiler, about at the level of the water line. Behind that knoctout there should be a tapping in the boiler with a plug in it. Remove the plug and install a black iron nipple (the size of the tapping) in the tapping and a ball valve (also the same size as the nipple) and put either a plug or cap on the end of the ball valve to ensure no one opens the ball valve a burns themselves when the boiler is running. If you have the Installation and Owners manual, it should show you the exact location of the skim tapping on the boiler.

mluna25

I don't see a skim port unless it is where the copper piping is?

Fred

This is a Burnham boiler. There should be a tapping for a skim port but you may not be able to get the plug out. I forgot this is not a new unit but an older unit that was oil converted to gas. If you can't get the skim tapping plug out, on Burnhams, the Pressure relief valve is on the side or back. You can take the pressure relief valve off, take the elbow , that the Pressure relief valve was mounted on off and replace it with a 3/4" black iron Tee, remount the pressure relief valve on the top opening of the Tee and use the end opening on the Tee as your skim port. After skimming, put a 3/4" plug in the end of that Tee and you will be ready to skim anytime the boiler needs it, usually after any pipe work has been done on the system.
I have my Burnham set up this same way.

mluna25

Fred said:

This is a Burnham boiler. I forgot this is not a new unit but an older unit that was oil converted to gas.

FYI, The boiler was installed new with the conversion (2013).

Fred

Try to find the boiler tapping and get it out but even a couple years makes it a tough job to get the plug out.

Abracadabra

I'm no carpenter, but isn't that level placed on the radiator incorrectly? Should be laying on it's narrow end, not tipped over like that, right?

Fred

I lay mine on the narrow end too but, Even on the flat side it will still show level/pitch. Try it.

mluna25

I put it on the narrow end as well (not a big variation) and it is now pitched correctly. That solution helped a lot with the spitting vents and banging (thus far). However, the surging and the dirty site glass is still an issue. As for an update, I contacted Burnham and they, along with NYSERDA, the contractor and the plumber who did the install (I tried to insisit that he not do any future work, but guess I didn't win that battle) are coming for a second inpection. Hopefully, Burnham rep will stand behind their own recommendations and also I hope that the boiler will be cleaned after this inspection. I'll let you all know what happens next.
At least, the spitting radiator issues are somewhat fixed.
Thanks.

BobC

The boiler water probably has oil and other contaminants in it that is causing it to surge. It should be drained, flushed and then skimmed but wait till any of the piping that needs to be fixed is done so it doesn't have to be done twice.

Bob

mluna25

GREAT NEWS everyone! My inspection with the Burnman rep and NYSERDA proved to be very beneficial. I just received a letter today stating that:
1) the boiler is oversized and will be replaced to the proper size
2) the piping was not in accordance to the manufacturer's recommended guidelines and the company was instructed on how to properly pipe the steam header and equalizer.
Thanks to everyone for all your education, support, gudiance and help in getting my problem resolved. I have to continue to use the same company, but this is indeed great news!
3) They also recommended that I pay out of pocket to replace the 1" return line, to 1-1/4" because they said it is what is causing the rusty water because the pipes are old?
Some questions:
Would you all agree that this is a good plan? It would involve cutting into my basement floor so that I can open the garage door. (the plumber would not fix the floor) and would leave a hole in my basement floor for the price of $11-1200.00.
Shouldn't the difference in boiler price cover this type of work? I paid close 8K for the IN6 and I imagine the IN4 is considerably less in price?
Would you suggest a second opinion about that?
Would you trust using the same plumber who did all the past work? Is this something that sounds reasonable (not so much the price, but the actual replacement)
Thoughts?
Any recommendations on what I need to be aware of and look for when the new boiler comes in?

Thanks again everyone! I'll keep you updated on any and all developments! Let's up this happens soon!
Michele

Fred

Great News! Not sure I understand some of your questions though. I thought you said Burnham said you have to use the same company and they have been instructed how to install it. If that's the case, what ask if you should use them? Just stay on top of them and make sure what they do looks like the picture in the manual. Also, not clear why the garage floor or basement floor have to be torn up. If the new wet returns can be installed above the floor, just abandon the buried returns and install new ones above the floor. Just make sure they stay below the Normal water level of the boiler.
Remember, we don't discuss pricing on this site. You have a second chance to get this right. It may make sense to ask for the difference in price betweenwhat you paid for the IN 6 and the IN4 but keep that as a seperate issue from repairing the floor. They are different issues.

mluna25

Oh sorry for not being clear. Yes. Burnman said that the company has aggreed to repipe the boiler and install a new smaller sized boiler.
However, they also suggested that I replace the return line. This would not be something that the company would be required to repair. So, I would have to pay somone to do this and they suggested that I use the company's plumber since he is doing the other corrective repairs (at no cost to me.).
So my new questions are if I need to really spend the extra money to replace my return line (the plumber suggested this is why I am getting the dirty water and Burnhaman rep agreed).
And if so, would it be advisable to get a second opinion or another more competent steamfitter?

Bio

That is good news! Having the rep to come out made the difference, Who came up with the IN4 as the correct size?

mluna25

FYI-The plumber said he would need to cut into my floor to put in the bigger 1-1'4 inch pipe. I currently have an 1 inch pipe. The bigger piping would cause my garage basement door to not open, thus why he said he would need to drill into my floor. The plumber said that because my current return pipe is only 1"and old it is getting clogged causing the rusty water. Does that sound reasonable?

mluna25

Bio said:

That is good news! Having the rep to come out made the difference, Who came up with the IN4 as the correct size?

The Burnman Rep determined the sizing based on a heat calculation!

KC_Jones

Hold on why does he need to cut into floor to run new pipe? Why not just abandon old pipe and run new above the floor. As long as the wet return is well below the boiler water level it is fine.

mluna25

It sounded strange to me as well, that's why I am double checking. So, right now my pipe is running along my floors in my basement. They are 1" return pipes. This plumber is stating that I need bigger 1-1/4" pipes and because of difference in thickness I wouldn't be able to open my garage door, since there is a 1'space between the door and the floor (for the current pipe). So by putting in the thicker/wider pipe he said he would need to cut into the floor. I just feel it's an attempt to recoop some of his losses. Do I really need to do this? Should I get someone else to come out for a second opinion?

KC_Jones

Is the door the only place in the whole house that pipe can run through? Usually there is a wall next to the door. Pictures of this location would definitely help. Given the track record of this contractor I would say question 100% of what he says. At this point I wouldn't trust him to put a flush handle on my toilet, but you are "stuck" with him for now so lest see what we can help you with.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

Hold on why does he need to cut into floor to run new pipe? Why not just abandon old pipe and run new above the floor. As long as the wet return is well below the boiler water level it is fine.

That's what I said too @KC_Jones but I have to assume his basement is in the basement and that his return pipe is under the floor where it crosses the garage door(s). I think 1-1/4" is good but if he can put back new 1" and allow your basement doors to close and if he can put valves at each end of the return, that will allow you to flush it out once a year and not cost you to tear up the floor for the larger pipe.

KC_Jones

I sometimes think people that don't know steam just want to do it exactly the way it was since they can't design it themselves due to lack of knowledge. Honestly and feel free to correct me, depending on his configuration and headroom etc. it could be run well above the water line as a dry return then dropped to the floor in the boiler room. I can't say for sure since I am not in the house and I am not the one that has to live with it.

mluna25

Well, I am stuck with him with the replacement of the right sized boiler and for the new boiler piping (header, etc.) but the changing of the return line is optional and entirely up to me to decide. If I do need to do this, I am thinking that I should get someone else. I'm with you KC and Fred. I do not trust this plumber at all. His reasons for the bigger pipe is that he says that the current 1" pipe is too small for the water to get back easily and it gets clogged because of it. I'll take a picture a post shortly.

KC_Jones

Also as far as crudding up, copper wet returns can be run. I have only had mine for a year, but holy S@#T do I see a difference it was the water looks like in the return pipes. It looks so good I think I could drink it, but I know better than to do that. lol

mluna25

here are pics