Main air valve suggestions for one pipe steam system

mluna25

Hi,
I recently had an oil to gas conversion finally competed. I had changed all my radiator vents and I wondered what I should do I regards to the main vent.
I have a Burnman IN6 boiler. 2 floors with 4 radiators on the top floor and 3 on the main floor.
I am planning on insulating the asbestos free pipes and the new boiler pipes.
in the past, (even with this new boiler that was first installed in 2013), I have had cold nights and my radiators don't seem to be creating the steam I believe they are truly capable of. In other words, my house tends to feel very cold and the steam does not seem to last. I wonder if changing the main air vent can help? Currently, there is a Hoffman # 45 installed. I don't think it was recently changed.
Any suggestions or ideas on how to get my radiators and heat system to be more effective and warm? I included a picture of my main air vent.
Also, I live in New York City area.

j a_2

Hello, there are some red flag warnings in your post... if you want some real good help, post some pictures, also was your installer, a heating guy with a steam background? Already seems something may be amiss here...But the pic of your near boiler piping and an EDR count is the best place to start.

BobC

I agree we need to see what the piping looks like to offer a complete assessment of your problem. Take pictures of the pipes around the boiler so we can make sure it is correct, then take pictures of the steam main(s) so we can see if they may have settled over the years - old houses settle and sometimes pipes end up sloped differently than when they were first installed.

Before you start insulating those pipes, go over them with a level to see if they have the correct slope along the length of each pipe. If you have dips in the runs water will collect in those dips and kill the steam as it tried to cross the pools of water.

That main vent you have is probably much too small, you probably need 10X that amount of venting with today's boilers. Tell us how many feet of steam main you have and what size pipe it is (could be 2, 2.5 or 3"); if you don't know the size just measure the circumference of the pipe and we will know what size it is. Before adding the vents we need to make sure the piping is good so take some pictures and post them.

Bob

j a_2

See your already getting great advise...

mluna25

Hi everyone,
Thanks, so far. I'll take photos and post shortly. I used a NYSERDA contractor from westchester, ny. It was a nightmare project. After I committed to them, they to,d me, because they are from Westchester they had to hire a sub contractor licensed in NYC ( this was in 2013). They hired a company who state they had a licensed plumber, but this guy was completely incompetent. He installed the boiler originally with copper piping and without any permits. There were numerous problems with the boiler, (and other install problems) and the parent company started to ignore me. The bad plumber also had the pressure turned up full blast and I had plenty of problems due to that ( although, I didn't realize it at the time).
So, I filed a complaint with NYSERDA, and they had to come back and reinstall all the piping, permits, new meter, etc. They got a new plumber who seems knowledgeable, and they just completed everything last week. So I had the "new" boiler running for 2 years with the wrong piping and lots of problems I want to make sure everything is correct, before wasting fuel and freezing again.
I'll post the pics and requested info shortly, just want to give some back story to get a complete picture of what I might need to do.
Thanks everyone again!

ChrisJ

The fact having the pressure turned up caused problems concerns me.

I could set my pressuretrol on 20 PSI and I'd never hear a sound unless you shut half of the radiators off. In a proper working system the high pressure limit shouldn't really do anything most of the time as the system should limit the pressure it self by consuming all of the steam and condensing it into water.

As was said, please post pictures. The more the better. Chances are you're going to want multiple Gorton 1s or 2s per main and all new radiator vents.

mluna25

OK, Here are my pics.
Note: These are near exact measurements, but not perfect, so lets say roughly).
There is"
36" of new pipe coming out of the boiler
26" of new pipe connecting to old pipe
5' 8" of old pipe (asbestos removed)
25' of old pipe encased in asbestos running between boiler and air vent
which then connects to about a 30" pipe which connects to the air vent
There is also a pipe that connects to the the pipes that run parrarel along the floor.

As for problems expereinced last 2 winters:
Uneven heat between radiators
Hissing with some radiators spitting out water
Lots of super loud banging (I recently made sure all of the radiators are pitched correctly)
Leaking valve steams (I recently made sure that the steams were repacked with graphaite tubing)
Cold rooms, even after radiators went on-temperature had to be set really high to keep house somewhat warm (very costly).

mluna25

Oh, and I forgot to state that I measured the circumference of the pipe and it looks like 7.5"

BobC

I m sorry to say the boiler is piped wrong and will not work properly piped like that, if you look at page 17 of this manual you will see how it should be piped.

http://ecomfort.com/PDF_files/Burnham/burnham_kin6lni-ll2_install.pdf

The way it is now it is producing wet steam and that is likely the cause of some of your problems.

It looks like you have about 36 ft of 2" pipe in your steam main so that existing vent is much to small. The existing vent should be removed and replaced with at least one Gorton #2 vent and 2 of them is what you really should have. These are large vents so make sure you have room for them before buying anything.

You should still go over all the mains piping with a level to make sure it is properly sloped. Also the pressuretrol should be set to allow no more than 2 PSI, your photo looks like it's set much higher,

Does the water in the sight glass bounce around a lot when the boiler is making steam and does the water look clean?

Do you know if the boiler has ever been skimmed to remove any oils in the water?

Bob

STEAM DOCTOR

Ditto. Piping looks BAD. Vent is way too small. The working assumption is that the boiler was not skimmed. Most installers don't take the time. Have it done right once. You really should go after original installer. No reason you should have to live with this mess.

mluna25

I am suppose to have a NYSERDA inspector out here to review the work, so I will raise these concerns to them. I've asked about skimming and cleaning aside from avoidance, I am going to say, that would be a big No on skimming. The thermostat is not installed because, supposedly, there was a short and they now need to replace the thermostat, so I can't conduct tests until after sunday.

mluna25

Also, I have a different model number, not sure if that makes a difference. SIN6LNI-LE2

mluna25

Guess it doesn't I pulled up the installation manuel and it looks the same.

ChrisJ

This is how a professional licensed in NYC piped a steam boiler?!!?!








.

BobC

That is just a variant, the piping should be done per the manual I referred you to. Print out that page and have it handy when that inspector shows up, ask him why it wasn't piped like the installation manual says it has to be piped.

I would pay extra to have it piped per the alternate piping method because it would give you drier steam.

Bob

mluna25

The NYSERDDA inspector will make the company come back to do it correctly at no cost to me. That's one benefit of going with the state conversion, I guess. Yes, it is a NYS Liscened plumber. You should have seen the first piping work, it was a leaking mess.
I just notified the company that the piping was done incorrectly, and I hope they will respond back with a positive response. If not, NYSERDA will intervene, before winter.

In the meantime, what should I do about the main air vent and the radiator vents? Should I wait until the piping issue is resolved first? Or should I go ahead and start changing them all now?
If so, which numbers should I get for each?

j a_2

The only number you need is the phone number of the individual who installed it...No steam man on this site would not replace all vents...Like selling a new car with no tires...I know this comment is not helping your technical situation...Best of luck...Dan's books have great venting charts as well as a couple guys developed a guide, I forget who it was but its downloadable for a small fee that I believe goes to a charity... Maybe someone else will.recall

KC_Jones

It's a good read, short and to the point. And yes it goes to charity. Plenty of venting info in there.
http://store.heatinghelp.com/Balancing-Steam-Systems-p/300.htm

j a_2

Thanks for the follow up K C

KC_Jones

Not a problem, you beat me to it. I usually mention that book, I like the charity aspect of it a lot!

mluna25

OK, thanks again guys (and gals?) for all your help. Luckily for me, my semi-new car my Suburu BRZ has great new tires, so no worries on that end. However, I am enraged to learn about all the issues with this boiler and that my nightmare continues. I think it's so sad that so many contractors cut corners or what not, when it just takes a few small steps to do things correctly. I wish there was a way to do an integrity test when hiring contractors for a job, but I guess a goods sales person is a good sales person, even if they are selling you crap. Oh well, at least I found this forum and learned a thing or two today. Thanks for all. I will check out the booklet and work on balancing my system.
Also, I will make sure that I get the pipes reinstalled correctly.
Thanks again for all your sage advice.
Michele

KC_Jones

Please keep us posted on how things go, we always like to hear how things work out. And if you need anything else just ask, there is tons of help on this forum. Oh and as to your comments about contractors...you aren't alone in that sentiment. What is really frustrating on steam is there is a book that comes with the boiler that clearly outlines proper piping and contractors still can't seem to get it right. The discussion has been had many times on this site about how to vet a contractor for a steam system. Since the average homeowner doesn't know, how can you? It seems to be a never ending struggle. BTW the advice you will get on here is typically a mix of homeowners (like me) and pros. I got so frustrated with the available contractors that I ended up learning and reading and just installing my own. This site has been a godsend for me.

j a_2

Well put K C....great post...

mluna25

KC, I couldn't agree more with you. As a homeowner, I have learned more about plumbing and steam systems than I ever thought I would want to. I only wish I understood these things in more depth 3 years ago. I agree this site is a godsend.
I worked in a hospital for years as the head of a child life department, and there are just so many requirements and policies in place to ensure that a patient and their families are well cared for without any risk of infection, diseases, or what not. Every hospital worker (at least in all the good ny hospitals), had to work as if there was an inspection happening at any minute. That meant, your best was expected at all times.I think that if the state had stricter installation laws and mandatory inspections there would be less risk of bad installs. In the contracting world if there is no one inspecting a contractors work (especially electricians and plumbers) than the contractor feels they can get away with anything because there is no consequence to poor or improper work.
All a homeowner can do at this point is educate themeselves, preferably before a job is contracted out.
I will keep you all informed and hopefully return in a few weeks with a proper vent system and a newly correctly piped boiler (one can only hope : )

RobG

mluna25 said:

I think it's so sad that so many contractors cut corners or what not, when it just takes a few small steps to do things correctly. I wish there was a way to do an integrity test when hiring contractors for a job, but I guess a goods sales person is a good sales person, even if they are selling you crap.

One of my good friends just retired, he was an Eagle Scout, A West Point Graduate, a Vietnam Vet and retired as a civil engineer. He just took a part time job with a local car dealership and they are starting him out on the used cars. I worry that he will not do well because he is probably the most honest man I have ever known.

mluna25

Rob G, I believe Honesty is still the best policy....although deceiving others may seem to get more sales -overtime, lying and deceiving will only hurt people. Your friend will do just fine.
and Hatterasguy Unfortunately, sometimes brutal honesty is just that...brutal and obvious truths are usually already obvious. As Helen Reddy said, "Hindsight is wonderful. It's always very easy to second guess after the fact." Thanks for the comments.

RobG

Hatterasguy said:

mluna25 said:

and Hatterasguy Unfortunately, sometimes brutal honesty is just that...brutal and obvious truths are usually already obvious. As Helen Reddy said, "Hindsight is wonderful. It's always very easy to second guess after the fact." Thanks for the comments.

Sadly, this situation is an ongoing occurrence on The Wall. Obviously, only those with "problems" show up here to get assistance with their issues so we see the worst of it.

But, it is eminently clear that there are quite a few contractors that either do not understand or do not want to spend the funds to install a steam boiler properly.

We also know that one in 100 homeowners has the knowledge and the fortitude to vet a steam contractor and get him to show his cards prior to the install. They have a significant edge. You don't.

So, the only solution is to have a look at their previous work.............which tells stories far beyond anything that is uttered from their mouths.

One look at these photos and we know immediately whether he'll do the right job..............or not.

The worst part is when you see contractors posting photos of others work proclaiming it's theirs (believe me we've seen it).

You have to do your homework and have a basic understanding of what your expectations are. Post photos of the actual work here before you write that last check.

mluna25

BobC said:

I m sorry to say the boiler is piped wrong and will not work properly piped like that, if you look at page 17 of this manual you will see how it should be piped.

http://ecomfort.com/PDF_files/Burnham/burnham_kin6lni-ll2_install.pdf

The way it is now it is producing wet steam and that is likely the cause of some of your problems.

It looks like you have about 36 ft of 2" pipe in your steam main so that existing vent is much to small. The existing vent should be removed and replaced with at least one Gorton #2 vent and 2 of them is what you really should have. These are large vents so make sure you have room for them before buying anything.

You should still go over all the mains piping with a level to make sure it is properly sloped. Also the pressuretrol should be set to allow no more than 2 PSI, your photo looks like it's set much higher,

Does the water in the sight glass bounce around a lot when the boiler is making steam and does the water look clean?

Do you know if the boiler has ever been skimmed to remove any oils in the water?

Bob

Hi, Back to the topic about the vents. I measured the space, but it's tight, especially the width (height ok). I could fit two vents if needed. I was looking at various set ups and came across this design which might work in my tight space. However, I wondered if something like this is OK to do, or do you need to space them apart?

ChrisJ

Here's my setup for my 29' 2" main.
I can't fit Gorton #2s so I have 5 #1s instead.

The main thing is you want to try to keep water out of the vents, and make sure any water that gets into the manifold can get back out.

mluna25

Oh ok. Great! I see. Thanks for your pic and alternate Chris J. I will investigate both ideas before setting things up.

BobC

The gorton#2 is about 6" in diameter and probably 6-1/2" high. If that is too big it will take about 3 gorton #1's to replace one #2, in that case i would start with 5 #1's.

Bob

mluna25

I have 30" above from the original elbow (that should be tall enough). The width seems to be somewhat of a problem, but doable if I design right. I'll lay out my plan over the next few weeks and post for opinions. First, I want to make sure to get the other issues fixed! For now, I just am trying to get an idea of what I need to do moving ahead.
All this and other information on different threads is so helpful. I also have confidence, that after my inspection the bad piping will be corrected as well. I'm so excited by the prospect of finally having a warm winter. Thanks all.

BobC

Make sure any piping you add for the vents slops back towards the pipe it comes off so you don't trap water in the new pipe.

Bob

mluna25

Hi'

Do you vent the return line too? I see there is some type of original dial type valve on the bottom level.
Should I leave this be or should this be vented as well?
What would be the recommended size?
One more thing, when I am ready to insulate the pipes do the bottom pipes get insulated too?
Thanks in advance.

ChrisJ

That's a drain and no, don't vent it. All you'll get is water.

Regarding insulation. The most important parts are between the boiler and the main vents. Everything else is optional but all of it loses heat. If you can insulate the returns including below the water line right to the boiler go for it.

Fred

Again, another botched installation. So typical (which I guess is to be expected, on this site, otherwise you wouldn't come here). Aside from the fact that this boiler must be repiped, and to you comment about the integrety/knowledge of the installer, the BEST thing a homeowner can do is arm themselves with knowledge. You don't have to become an expert on Steam, you just have to open the same installation/owners manual that the installer should use as his guide. If he doesn't do it by the book, speak up and say "that's not right", don't go any further until this is corrected. If he has a good reason for modifying the near boiler piping, like a drop header or using both risers out of the boiler, instead of one (as may be pictured in the manual), have him explain the advantages to you. In most cases, the installation manual will also show those optional installations. If they don't, pick up the phone a call the manufacturer or, better yet, come to this site immediately and ask the question/post a picture. You'll have an answer in less than 10 minutes. Good luck getting this issue resolved.

mluna25

Hi Fred,
That is not from my recent intall. That is from the 1940's and part of the original house. As for arming myself, that's what I am doing now.
To clarify...
Believe it or not, the piping you see in the first set of pics is the second attempt of re piping after the company I hired to do the job, subcontracted it out to a horrible plumber. The hired company had to redo the entire job.
What you see is the work of a second plumber who the company I hired subcontracted to repipe the original install. I am working with NYSERDA, and they will instruct the company to pipe it correctly, before they can continue to receive payment.
So, I believe what I am attempting to do, although with some hesitations at this point, is educate myself and understand the system, to avoid further problems.
As for coming on to the site before there is a problem, well, all I can say is that I went to school for child psychology (not plumbing) and in my field, as much as one might wish, parents, read something about parenting or child rearing, and not wait until they have a problematic teenager, they usually don't. So, what happens, they usually get help when there is a deep problem. Usually, a problem is what motivates one too seek out help and learn. Hopefully to forever become the wiser, and aim to not repeat the mistake. I see problems that could have been prevented all the time, but people tend to not have the basic knowledge, or pay attention to specifics, except on matters that have an interest...until of course a problem occurs. That's just human nature.
In my field, if you do not act with integrity you put your license at risk, so what I really meant is that I think there should be more checks and balances with the state regulations, to prevent bad contractors.
As for speaking up, the picture was posted, and questions arose, so I am grateful to Bob for showing me the problem, so that thankfully, I can still get it fixed at no cost to me. Again, this repiping was completed last week and NYSERDA, still needs to come and expect the work.

I agree with you and others on some of your points that homeowners need to learn something before a project, but again, homeowners should be able to trust tradesmen and professionals to know their craft and educate their customers...it's a 50/50 dance, with no real right or wrong, but rather a learning process all around.

I appreciate all the comments, but moving forward, I hope they can relate to my boiler and not my alleged ignorance and mistakes as a homeowner.

RobG

mluna25 said:

it's a 50/50 dance, with no real right or wrong, but rather a learning process all around.

It's more like an 80/20 chance unfortunately of finding a good tradesman.

j a_2

Rob, sad but true...

KC_Jones

Many of us

mluna25 said:

I appreciate all the comments, but moving forward, I hope they can relate to my boiler and not my alleged ignorance and mistakes as a homeowner.

Don't take it personally. Many times we comment for the benefit of others that may stop in to read something. We always hope to spread the word for people to stop here first instead of after the problem happens. Our comments aren't always directed at you even though they may present that way.

mluna25

Oh, OK. I appreciate the explanation, I understand the "tone" now and the audiance.
I just had my NYS inspection today, with the contractor present. Unfortuately, the boiler did not go on so they could not test the efficency. The contractor claimed it was because of the Nest Thermostat. I turned off all of the nest sensors and had the Nest on overide mode, but still no heat.

Anyway, I need your help regarding the plumbing, the contractor states that his plumber did install the above (pics) appropriatly. I was getting the impression that they did not want to fix the error. The contractor states that it is plumbed this way due to my one pipe "system" and that he can have the plumber explain the reasons in more details. He said that the plumber stated that both holes do not need to be plumbed and started giving me a lot of double talk.

I showed them the manufacturers manuel as per all of your suggestions and the comments made in regards to my system and the contractor stated, that none of "the master plumbers" on this site acually saw the work in person. I informed them that I took photos and shared with you guys.

Anwyay, I wanted your suggestions on how to respond since I do not have the plumbers lingo down. Aside, from the instruction manuel, can you explain why the way that it is currently plumbed is wrong and why it needs to be installed the correct way? So when they try to give me double talk I can respond in an educated manner.

He offered to have a representive from Burnaham come and inspect? I don't know if that would be beneficial-thoughts?

There is still the State report as well, hopefully that will help my situation.

I appreciate the help, thanks in advance.