HELP please on my Lochinvar WHN085

maybemark

I installed the boiler myself, with several of the guys on this site helping me, and I thank you all for this.

I have a couple issues now that i have the boiler running.
I had an old at one time gravity fed system. I am using these existing pipes but used copper for the near by piping of the boiler.
I have radiators in my house, way too many
It was suggested by several guys to make it simple for myself, and not put in a boiler loop. Just a heating/boiler and a DHW priority.
I did all this.
My 1st issue is. How do i run on the outside sensor? I went ahead and set the setpoint temp from the naviogation button. And this is what it uses, the number I manually put in.
I was told by somone from this group. I should be using the outside sensor to help the boiler work at it's best effeicency. I read both manuals over and over and i am not getting it, how do i activate the sensor? On the menu it shows the temp outside, but it's only working on my set point
Can anyone help?

The other problem I am having is the front of my house (living room) used to be the coldest room in the house, other than the basement. This is where i put the thermostat.
With this new boiler, it's the hottest room in the house, and the back of the house, the radiators are cold.
I bled my radiators, so i can't see that being the problem. I did notice, my pump was set on low. I moved it to high now.
I will find out tomorrow morning if thats all it took.
I added a basement radiator, towards the back of the house, it's always cold

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
thanks
Mark

Zman

Mark,
The outdoor reset settings on that boiler are in the service manual http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/WH-SER Rev K.pdf

The other issues you are having must be air. Just because it won't bleed at the radiator, that does not mean there is not air trapped somewhere else in the pipes. Changing the pump speed may help push the bubble, increasing pressure temporally will also help.

Carl

maybemark

Hi Carl, I thought you were out of the country.
I reaqd the install manual, read the service manual. It just is passing me by, and I just don't get it. I read it several times
oh, I got a UEI cumbustion analyzer off ebay

maybemark

I just read it again, I still don't understand where I put the numbers for the hi and low out door temps

Zman

Are you in installer mode or service mode?
In service mode, you should be able to change the setting as discribed on page 22

maybemark

I just came upstairs, and in service mode, did not see anything in there about outdoor sensor reset

maybemark

carl
I don't see anything like what they say on pg 22.
I do not see in the service manual, what to do, to get to the out door sensor set up
you can change fan speed
I did my night set back for both domestic and heat, but nothing about out door

maybemark

I found the area for setting the numbers for the out door, but I did not see anything about disable or enable

maybemark

If you feel it's air in the lines somplace, what is your suggestion on getting it out?

bmwpowere36m3

If you connect the outdoor temp sensor… then the boiler will automatically use it. I believe you cannot enable or disable it, unless you physically disconnect the sensor OR set the reset curve so the supply temp is the same across the range of outdoor temps (basically negating the outdoor sensor).

If you want variable supply vs. outdoor temps then connect the sensor and set the curve. If you want a fixed supply temp, then don't connect the sensor and set the supply temp.

You have to access the "installer mode" and modify the reset curve. Its all in the service manual….

maybemark

thanks bmw
I did find it on the boiler
if this works automatically, then why is there the set points you manually have

Heat_n_CT

Because every house's heatloss and available radiation is different - my house may need 140/110 yours may need 160/100, the next guy may need 120/105.

maybemark

Thanks Heat
how would i know what i need.
and why does it seem that the set point overrides the out door sensor.
I just came up from the basement, and I had the set point at 100, the boiler was in standbye, because it met the set point, but the thermostat was still calling for heat. I raised the set point and the boiler went back on
I don't see how the ouside sensor is working on my unit, the set point seems to be the temp, that the boiler works too.
this might be simple problem, but I am just not getting it.
When i set the temp of the outside sensor, I just took a guess.
The default was 25 degrees, Chicago has days in the winter alot colder than 25.
I am missing something, and I just don't know what it is

maybemark

How do i know what temps I should put for the out door sensor.
I live in Chicago

SWEI

This is why we do radiation surveys. Total up the square feet of EDR for all your installed radiators. Divide the BTU/hr number from your heat loss calc by the total square feet. Report back and we'll give you an estimated water temp to use for the top of the curve (the coldest day.)

maybemark

Kurt, on one of the post we did this. I will try and find it.
I did put numbers in outside temp. sensor, it seems to ignor the outside and uses the set point number I gave it. I don't know how to get it to use the sensor instead

maybemark

heat loss is 76000 and sq ft is about 2600. still lookng for the total square feet of radiators, I do remember being told, I am way over radiated, but that's a good thing

I never mentioned, this boiler is cycling alot, most often it's at 100% flame and it seems that the tank looses it's heat rather quicky
I'll keep looking for the radiators

maybemark

Kurt
you wrote this in Dec,
76k puts you at 29 BTU's per square foot. That's probably on the high side, but I don't live there and it sounds like you need someone who can really set you straight. I would see if Dave Bunnell would be willing to consult with your plumber. An hour or two of his time would be a worthwhile investment IMO.
is this helpful to you?

SWEI

That's the square footage of your house. We're looking for the EDR of your installed radiation.

RobG

It sounds like you need Dave Bunnell to come out and commission the system and show you how it all works. This is a tough subject to explain on a discussion board. As well, if you have not been trained on combustion analysis it is a hard subject to learn. It sounds like you have done the hard part of the job, now you need a pro to fine tune it.

maybemark

Rob
I don't know who Dave Bunnell is
Carl
I know I gave you the sq footage and the heat loss, in one of these discussions, someone helped he get the EDR
I wonder, would it be on my slant fin calculator?
On the slantfin, at 0 it says water temp should be 180

RobG

Dave Bunnell: http://www.thesteamwhisperer.net/index.shtml

Hopefully he is freed up now that the heating season is at it's end. He loves steam work but it is not all he does. Tell him that he was recommended from The Wall.

maybemark

mine is a hot water boiler
Rob
I appreiciate you giving out a name that can help me.
But I have been enjoying and learning to do this myself, with the help of many others on this wall

I feel I came a long way of noing nothing about boilers, to this day. I do have alot more to learn,
I made alot of mistake on the way, but this is how I learnered.
I got from e-bay a comustion analyzer, from help by Kurt, was able to do a test with it
I got a UEI egale 2 series 155, it's in perfect shape but I'm sure it needs calibrating, but I was in the peramiters of what the manual says.
I do want to thank you for looking out for me.
I think what I want to do, when i get a snag, a few people from the wall have given me their e-mail address and one we've talked on the phone a few times

The people on the wall have been very nice to me for the most part, and I appreciate it

bmwpowere36m3

Do you understand what the outdoor sensor does? When you set the ODR/reset curve there are four variables (usually). There is the max and min outdoor temperatures; also max and min supply temperatures.

The supply temperature or set point will only vary if the outdoor temp changes (depending on the reset curve). The max supply temp will be at the min outdoor temp and the min supply temp will be at the max outdoor temp.

maybemark

bmw
thank you very much, I did end up figuring it out last night, I should have posted it
thanks again

Gordy

Mark,

Kurt did do an EDR survey in one of your threads IIRC some rooms were over radiated, and some were under radiated, but not under radiated by much. So now its about balancing the system side, and dialing in the ideal ODR curve that will supply the optimal SWT to meet the loads.

First you have to be absolutley sure the system is free of entrained air, and the circ size, and or speed is correct or else all attempts to dial things in are in vein.

As Carl mentioned above. Increase system pressure to say 20psi this will help entrain air to get it back to the SEP, and increase pump speed.

Bleeding of the radiators should be done from the farthest Rad then systematically working your way back to the closest rad.

tim smith

what kind of radiators do you have? If cast iron and some rooms over radiated and some under then I would probably start with a 90 minimum and design water temp of say 150 at low od design temp for Chicago. That's just a starting point. Final outcome you might even get by with 130 or 140 which will just make your boiler efficiency even better. I would probably set warm weather shutdown at around 64. It is all flexible. I see how low can I go is my motto and still heat the house. Also you sometimes have to add in the boost feature as when we get wild temp swings overnight the boiler can't catch up with the settings so you can set it to boost 10 or 15 degrees if not making temp in 30 minutes give or take. Nice feature.

maybemark

thanks guys
I actually talked with someone on the phone from the wall.
He feels air is my problem.
This morning i got upturned off the unit, did a purge with 25 lbs, before that, I closed all radiators. i can not get to the valves of the 1st floor living room radiators. At this point, while 25 lbs purge, I went to all other radiators one at a time, and bleed them until I felt cold water, once that was complete, i opened that valve on that radiator, I did this to every radiator in the house. At the moment I still have the 25 lbs and cranked up the temp.
I am hoping to move that air
I know 25 is way to high, and wonder if i should bring it down to 15 now, or if I should keep it like this for a few hours

SWEI

No harm in keeping it at 25 PSI.

maybemark

thanks Kurt
Many are thinking its air in my lines
if you read what i did today, do you think i got it?

Gordy

Uhm maybe Im miss reading what you are describing, but are you closing the supply valve to the radiator then bleeding the radiator with the supply valve closed?? If so the valves to the radiators should be open while bleeding them, and the pumps off.

SWEI

Good catch, Gordy.

Another thing that helps IME is to valve off the boiler and the expansion tank from the rest of the system, then fill to full street pressure. 60+ PSI can really push the air along.

maybemark

Gordy, I hear what your saying, but my water must be coming from the return, because the bleeder isn't just dripping, it's like turbo power coming out of the air vent

the boiller is still in DHW mode, to get up to the temp.
but the living room on the 1st floor is still so hot, all other radiatora are either cold, or barly warm

maybemark

I have had the system on for a better part of the day, 180 is the target point for very cold days.
I set the thermostat for 80 degrees, trying to get air out, and pressure at 25 lbs.
my boiler temp can not get past 125 degrees.
Is the air causing this to happen?
still, my radiators at the back of the house a little warm, living room is very hot

Paul48

If you have a gravity conversion, and have bled each radiator, it is most likely not air. Close the valves on the radiators that are hot.... what happens?

maybemark

Paul
what do you think it is then?
after my purge this morning, and bleeding the radiators, the 1st floor living room is hot, but I can not get to the valves to turn them off, the rest of the radiators anre hot, but not like the living room, except the very back of the house, which is only warm. Another thing, I set the stat for 80, the set point on the boiler is 180, the temp won't go any higher than 127, all day at 100%, all I get out of it is 127 degrees
I don't know what's wrong

Gordy

You need to have the valves open on the radiator to purge/bleed. yes you are getting pressure through return side but any air on the supply side can not escape.

IIRC wasnt the living room the cooler room in the house with the old system? I seem to remember some scuttle butt on fans, in a radiator enclosure. Now its hotter.. Hmmm

maybemark

Gordy
yes, the living room was always the coldest room in the house, now it's the hottest room in the house.
I turned the therostat down for a while, then just turned it up again, Getting up to 120 degrees is fast, getting higher than that is a chalenge. I had it up to 127, but the boiler was running for many hours to gety that high.
I don't know if it's air, Paul doesn't think so, but never said what he thought
Fred was just here, wanting to put another valve on 2 radiators, he feels the air will get eliminated that way. He fears, the boiler is too small.

I don't know what to think, and i don't know what to do

Gordy

How can Fred come to that conclusion?

RobG

Can you post some photos of the boiler and near boiler piping? That may help in figuring out the issues.

maybemark

I can not speak for him,, so i don't know
what I do know, the back of my house is not getting enough heat.
Can it possibly be a circ issue? Is high, to much? Or do I need a larger pump?