A.O. Smith water heater. Big problems. No help. (JohnNY) **Updated 3/27/15, 11:30am**

Gordy

I know John just wants to get this behind him, but the cost to do so stings. I like ME's idea of trying to prove their product is defective. Only problem is the environment the situation occurs in. The owner I'm sure has already had enough.

If the older like unit is still around I would be tearing it down to see "what's changed" I mean everything. His posts indicated there were some minor venting, and intake changes to swap like units. So what else changed. Why the change.

How many of these like units are out there with like issues needs to be pursued. For John to eat 10 grand is not exceptable.

JohnNY

nicholas bonham-carter said:

The techs at Smith were certainly no use in this.
Could there be another device, using the output of the water heater, unknown to the restaurant? That might explain the occasional loss of hot water, such as a cross connection with the building hot water supply.
If you assertained that the water heater would deliver the whole 60 gallons, at the desired temperature, and that the cause of the cold water events was not some sort of burner problem, then the building connection may have absorbed all the hot water from the restaurant heater. If no one turned the building supply off, once the restaurant heater came back on line, then it's output may have ended up in mrs. Smith's shower.--NBC

Checked that. Isn't happening. All the piping is exposed and there are no cross connections.

AlCorelliNY

John,

Sorry to hear that you've been bitten by ao smith.
I've has a run in or two with them throughout the years. Please try the Phoenix.

I will no longer specify any ao smith product because of the mistreatment you have received.

We are out in the field taking the heat from products like this. The LEAST a manufacturer can do is "man up" and replace an obviously defective product, especially after it has been proven that there is an issue.

What Matt says about manufacturers is true. There are some people who stand out, but that is a rarity and not the rule.

Al Corelli
ACA Inc.
"We Warm You in Ways You'd Never Imagine"
Serving Westchester County, NY and Lower Connecticut

hot_rod

A bad deal for all involved. Really the dealer and rep should go to bat for you and insist on support from the manufacturer. Manufacturers pay the "chain of distribution" for this task.

Manufacturers have budgets and insurance for problems like this, no doubt the manufacturer would like to find the cause of the failure for their product line also.

At this point no one wants to data log and determine the failure, add days or weeks to the "pain" everyone just wants a fix.

I'd caution against throwing a manufacturer under the bus product wide even though tempers are high and customers furious. Good chance we all have AO Smith electric motors in our lives

In the end I don't think it's John responsibility to suck up all the costs to resolve the issue, based on his info it's more than an over-loading condition with random failure and error codes.

Let us know how this gets resolved, as it un-doubtly will

icesailor

What else can it be but a brain lesion on the F Brain Board? If it runs sometimes, then not others, and you can't pin it down, it's a fault in the computer logic parameters that the board it operating in.

Unless AO Smith designed and manufactured that board, someone in Asia did, and they are telling AO Smith that there is nothing wrong with their board. Just like the key switches on GM cars and the control for all the air bags. There's nothing wrong until enough people are killed or injured and someone admits a problem.

If it is a sensor, and it gives certain readings that the board interprets, if the board is programmed to interpret it a certain way or lock up, what else? Something is incompatible with something else.

DanHolohan

All of this is Blog worthy.

wogpa67

I would try replacing the sensors and board from the unit that was removed, as long as the rest of the hardware is the same on the new unit. As I was lining up the Phoenix to be put in.

RobG

The amazing thing is that if it were a leaker (which most of us have had) it would have been handled at the supply house and the rep would come out at some point and inspect it and then credit the supply house for a new unit and the supply house would scrap it. They'll admit to a leaker but not a lemon? Makes no sense to me!

Snowmelt

Another secret since they bought takagi there tankless product went down hill. At one job I put in three computer boards before it was running corectly.
Before ao took over I never had a problem with pc boards or gas valves, now that's all I replace.
I'm going to start with HTP products but for now small residential I'm going to stick to rheem.

4Johnpipe

This ones going viral...spread the word...

j a_2

I reread Johnny's post and my vote goes to him


He did everything he could

Fred

Maybe someone should send the link to this thread to AO Smith CEO, VP of Tech Support, the Distributor and the Field Rep.
I suspect when they see the kind of image they are creating for themselves with just this one incident, they will get it resolved as quickly as possible to minimize further Company/product damage.

Paul Pollets

I've seen Viessmann fly in their top tech guys to the West coast to help solve serious boiler or control issues. Can't understand why AOS doesn't jump in and make it right. Begs the question on what a Manufacturer's Rep makes a commission for...

hot_rod

It's good to use the power of the press and social media to bring attention to this unresolved problem.

I think AO deserves to be heard from also to see their course of action.

I'd caution against throwing out the baby with the bath water. AO has served our industry generously and their former reps received numerous, presitiage awards due to their relationship.

Many of us have and will continue to benefit from manufacturers foundations and donations, AO has supported scouting and many other civic causes over the years, we, and our children have benefited. As well millions to our industry for worthy causes and fund raisers.

Looking down the list of advertisers here, every single one has had some glitches and product issues over their history.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I'll never use brand X ever again"

JohnNY

hot rod said:

It's good to use the power of the press and social media to bring attention to this unresolved problem.

I think AO deserves to be heard from also to see their course of action.

I'd caution against throwing out the baby with the bath water. AO has served our industry generously and their former reps received numerous, presitiage awards due to their relationship.

Many of us have and will continue to benefit from manufacturers foundations and donations, AO has supported scouting and many other civic causes over the years, we, and our children have benefited. As well millions to our industry for worthy causes and fund raisers.

Looking down the list of advertisers here, every single one has had some glitches and product issues over their history.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I'll never use brand X ever again"

Hot Rod, I hear you and I'm sure you're right.
The fact is I don't like being this guy.
I have my share of screw-ups and I get to read about them online from time to time and then it falls to me make it right however I can and at nearly any cost.

This situation is a bad one and I take no pleasure or solace in shaming AOS or damaging my relationship with them or my local reps. We're all here to do business, hopefully, for years to come and we have to deal with each other.
The fact is that when I get a call for that emergency residential 40-gallon water heater replacement in the future and all I can get my hands on is an A.O. Smith product, that's what I'll buy.
I've learned long ago to leave emotion and money in their separate corners of any situation.

I'm not sure what can be done with this water heater, but I've run out of time dealing with it. Tuesday (2 days from now), it's going in the garbage and tomorrow I'll look at the HTP and some other stuff. I was thinking to put in a Lochinvar Armor and storage tank but I understand AOS owns Lochinvar now so I'm not doing that.

It's just bad all around.

Take care,
John

hot_rod

JohnNY said:

hot rod said:

It's good to use the power of the press and social media to bring attention to this unresolved problem.

I think AO deserves to be heard from also to see their course of action.

I'd caution against throwing out the baby with the bath water. AO has served our industry generously and their former reps received numerous, presitiage awards due to their relationship.

Many of us have and will continue to benefit from manufacturers foundations and donations, AO has supported scouting and many other civic causes over the years, we, and our children have benefited. As well millions to our industry for worthy causes and fund raisers.

Looking down the list of advertisers here, every single one has had some glitches and product issues over their history.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I'll never use brand X ever again"

Hot Rod, I hear you and I'm sure you're right.
The fact is I don't like being this guy.
I have my share of screw-ups and I get to read about them online from time to time and then it falls to me make it right however I can and at nearly any cost.

This situation is a bad one and I take no pleasure or solace in shaming AOS or damaging my relationship with them or my local reps. We're all here to do business, hopefully, for years to come and we have to deal with each other.
The fact is that when I get a call for that emergency residential 40-gallon water heater replacement in the future and all I can get my hands on is an A.O. Smith product, that's what I'll buy.
I've learned long ago to leave emotion and money in their separate corners of any situation.

I'm not sure what can be done with this water heater, but I've run out of time dealing with it. Tuesday (2 days from now), it's going in the garbage and tomorrow I'll look at the HTP and some other stuff. I was thinking to put in a Lochinvar Armor and storage tank but I understand AOS owns Lochinvar now so I'm not doing that.

It's just bad all around.

Take care,
John

I understand and have been in this position myself. Although not to that $$ amount or high stress level. I know you will work through it and do right by your team and customer.

Sounds mostly like a serious communication breakdown with your support team not taking the bull by then horns. They have the power, and obligation to right this wrong. The dollar amount to correct this is peanuts to a multi billion dollar corporation.

Just glad it wasn't my product:)

I remember when mod cons first hit the market and all the bad experiences posted here. And how one manufacturer overcame those "learning curves" Gosh what if AO bought them some day.

keep smiling

kcopp

I would by no means put it in the trash right away... I would want an autopsy done on it to see if something could be figured out.
kcopp

Mad Dog_2

I put in a very similar HWH in a popular restaurant when I first went out on my own. 100 gallon High BTU input gas Direct replacement A.O. Smith. Rough job...had to completely strip gas train et cetera...BARELY fit thru the Bilco doors. Scratched the heck outta the jacket. Did it overnight with 4 good men, had to repipe alot of stuff, new Holby....lost $ but came thru....owner got a real deal. Everything was fine the first two days....THEN the calls starting coming in: "...I got NO DAMNED hot water...whats wrong with this unit....did you size it right? How long you doing this? you gotta get over here, NOW!" He was getting very nasty at this point. I'd run over, and the heater was keeping up fine....Long story short, a CERTAIN maintainence guy would come in at the wee hours and run hot water from a hose down the sewer instead of cleaning the grease trap. Several times he must have left it on, remembered, then put everything back before anyone knew. I was back at least 5 times in like 7 days. Id get there usually in the morning and before long temp would climb......one day he went home early sick and left his hose set up running. THANK GOD!!!! I caught it. Brought the owner to show him: ".....oh wow....so that was it?" he said...."thanks!" I wanted to stick his head in the grease trap for how nasty and aobnoxiuos he was...no sorry, no offer of even a free meal. Who pays for these shenanigans? THE BUSINESS OWNER. John, make sure its not something silly like this. Mad Dog

Patchogue Phil_2

Not sure how much leverage you'd get with national attention for a commercial product, but Tweeting about bad Customer Service with a retail product gets immediate response.

Twitter is powerful , and not just for teenagers.

JohnNY

@Patchogue Phil
Thanks, but as I said earlier, I posted my story here but I'm not happy being this guy, shouting about this on the internet. It's getting plenty of attention here.

JohnNY

JohnNY said:

Hot Rod, I hear you and I'm sure you're right.
The fact is I don't like being this guy.
I have my share of screw-ups and I get to read about them online from time to time and then it falls to me make it right however I can and at nearly any cost.

This situation is a bad one and I take no pleasure or solace in shaming AOS or damaging my relationship with them or my local reps. We're all here to do business, hopefully, for years to come and we have to deal with each other.
The fact is that when I get a call for that emergency residential 40-gallon water heater replacement in the future and all I can get my hands on is an A.O. Smith product, that's what I'll buy.
I've learned long ago to leave emotion and money in their separate corners of any situation.

I'm not sure what can be done with this water heater, but I've run out of time dealing with it. Tuesday (2 days from now), it's going in the garbage and tomorrow I'll look at the HTP and some other stuff. I was thinking to put in a Lochinvar Armor and storage tank but I understand AOS owns Lochinvar now so I'm not doing that.

It's just bad all around.

Take care,
John

A very smart guy and someone I respect greatly at Wallace-Eannace just assured me that Lochinvar, while at the highest corporate level is owned by A.O. Smith, the companies are run very separately and it's the same people I've known and done good business with for the past 5+ years that operate and oversee Lochinvar.
I'm going to look at dimensions of the Armor and storage tank tomorrow.
That's for the record.
Thanks, Jerry. I appreciate the call on a Sunday.

RobG

JohnNY said:

@Patchogue Phil
Thanks, but as I said earlier, I posted my story here but I'm not happy being this guy, shouting about this on the internet. It's getting plenty of attention here.

Yeah, it sucks being the one to start a thread like this but we all appreciate knowing how companies handle their service issues.

4Johnpipe

John I would not be concerned with saying what is said. Your manner has been calm, frank and open. You never should have to apologize for the truth...

JohnNY

Thank you. Everyone.

jonny88

JohnNY ,this is a valuable lesson for everyone.We have all had problems with different units but the way you composed your complaint and didnt get on the bashing bandwagon is probably a testament as to why your company is so successful.Hopefully it gets resolved without a hit to your pocket as this scenario would put a real hurtin on us small guys out there.Best of luck.

RobG

jonny88 said:

JohnNY ,this is a valuable lesson for everyone.We have all had problems with different units but the way you composed your complaint and didnt get on the bashing bandwagon is probably a testament as to why your company is so successful.Hopefully it gets resolved without a hit to your pocket as this scenario would put a real hurtin on us small guys out there.Best of luck.

It sounds like his pocket has already been hit. I just don't want him to lose a customer over issues that he has no control over. I know that I dread answering the phone after eight P.M., rarely is it good news.

Abracadabra

What bothers me the most is that it appears that AOSmith doesn't have the contractor's back, they are leaving @JohnNY out to dry, and that tech support appears to be running their support out of a corporate playbook. I don't often have issues that get this extreme, but it's nice to know that the manufacturer that you go to will in fact be there to support you in any way possible in the event you run across a problem. Maybe AOSmith needs to ditch their current playbook and copy Taco's.

BobC

A company that does not listen to it's customers is not going to do well long term. Too many companies only see 90 days ahead, that is the mantra of MBA CEO's.

I'm afraid AO is just such a company. The only answer is to shun them and their products and see if they ever do realize what is going on.

Bob

EBEBRATT-Ed

Hopefully this gets resolved quickly. John NY has gone over and above it's something we all have done for our good customers. You certainly do not deserve to take a 10K hit.

AO Smith could still make this right but too bad there head is stuck up there a--

With all the time you have spent on this they have certainly been made aware of this problem.

icesailor

There's a solution somewhere. You might have to help find it.

It can only be electrically driven as a cause. That think about if you think you see a zebra in the park, its probably a horse.

Does it go up to set temperature most of the time? Like for days? And suddenly, you get a call one morning that it is 85 degrees water temperature? That's hotter than the cold water service. Why? What do you do to get it to work again? Something is telling the control to not behave. It can't be anything else. When GV's first came out, they had a brain that gave them problems. They switched to another brain. Not all had the problem immediately but sooner or later, most develop it. You need to make THEM prove to you that is isn't an electrical issue involving the subsidiaries of the board. You have to work harder than they have, and do what ME has said. You need to log everything you can.

How long did GM have a problem they denied with their ignition switch? How many people did they tell to take any extra keys and goojads off of key rings to keep it from pulling the key out and stopping the engine? My next door neighbor was one.

If you are the only one with this problem, what is the problem and why? If others are having the same type problems, what is the cause and why?

icesailor

""" Fast forward to December 2014. Just three months ago. On that same 3-year schedule, we were contracted to replace the water heater again. The one in place, now three years old, had a sensor that needed to be replaced and management took it as a sign to replace the water heater since commercial water heaters are typically warranted for three years. """

So, this all started with a faulty sensor on the old water heater. What is the sensor and what is it supposed to do?

Then the service company gives you a board they just happened to have, (or something).

The new unit is a
"Updated" unit? The control system?

Does this gas modulate? If you come in on a cold water call in the AM, and the burner is running, but the water is 85 degrees, the burner isn't modulating up? You have to be the smartest guy in the room to figure this out. No one else is going to help you. There's probably more to this

RobG

icesailor said:

There's a solution somewhere. You might have to help find it.

It can only be electrically driven as a cause. That think about if you think you see a zebra in the park, its probably a horse.

Does it go up to set temperature most of the time? Like for days? And suddenly, you get a call one morning that it is 85 degrees water temperature? That's hotter than the cold water service. Why? What do you do to get it to work again? Something is telling the control to not behave. It can't be anything else. When GV's first came out, they had a brain that gave them problems. They switched to another brain. Not all had the problem immediately but sooner or later, most develop it. You need to make THEM prove to you that is isn't an electrical issue involving the subsidiaries of the board. You have to work harder than they have, and do what ME has said. You need to log everything you can.

How long did GM have a problem they denied with their ignition switch? How many people did they tell to take any extra keys and goojads off of key rings to keep it from pulling the key out and stopping the engine? My next door neighbor was one.

If you are the only one with this problem, what is the problem and why? If others are having the same type problems, what is the cause and why?

It shouldn't be the end users problem, the testing should have been done in the lab. Beta testing is one thing, but when you buy a product off the shelf it should be expected to work as advertised.

SWEI

Data logging can be very revealing. When combined with alarming, we find it to be one of the best justifications for the additional cost of DDC (over a typical configurable controls platform.)

Someone here pointed us at http://wirelesstag.net/ awhile back, which looks to be (by far) the least expensive way to get the basic job done. Kind of a wireless version of 1-wire for those who are familiar with it.

Tinman

I have an AO Smith on Will Call to be picked up tomorrow morning. Maybe I should rethink this?

Tim McElwain

I am typically not one to bad mouth anyone including manufacturers. I do not plan to start here by the way. I know Johnny NY is an excellent contractor and looks to always do the best job for his customers. This is a sad state of affairs.

It is not I am afraid the only case of this kind of thing. I get a lot of feed back from contractors all over the country, they often call me when they are at the end of there rope in dealing with equipment problems. The reports in recent years of manufacturers failing to support their product have increased to the point that it is scary. I try to promote every ones products especially wanting to teach techs how to install, service and repair the products. The end result many times is that I get feed back that parts are not readily available, factory reps do not know what they are doing, call centers leave you frustrated, warranties are questioned and not supported and the list goes on. If this is the process we plan to follow in America then we as a country are in trouble. Let me also say I have the privilege of direct contact with folks in some companies and when I alert them to a problem they are Johnny (no pun intended) on the spot! It really looks like A.O. Smith is hurting them selves. I find that sometimes contacting the VP of sales of companies gets some real action especially when the see the possibility of losing market share on their product.

Snowmelt

Just to add to aos complaint, I recieved a registered letter from aos president saying there dropping me. When I called to personally talk to him, they said I couldnt. Aos is a bunch of asses when they buy other companies the people quit and went to the competeters because the company sucks to work for. What gets me is that i still get calls from the company to go out and fix there product. I'm not going to turn down money and I'm going to install what a customer wants. So I try to talk them out of a aos for the reason I don't get discount on parts but they raised there price.
With that being said, there customer service and ceo sucks I'm getting so upset just talking about it, I feel like writing a letter and smacking them across the face but I can't because as a small company they give me good paying customers. Although there not good paying I have to stay on top of them.

Larry_52

Tim McElwain said:

Let me also say I have the privilege of direct contact with folks in some companies and when I alert them to a problem they are Johnny (no pun intended) on the spot! It really looks like A.O. Smith is hurting them selves. I find that sometimes contacting the VP of sales of companies gets some real action especially when the see the possibility of losing market share on their product.

Tim, with all respect it is usually the same VP or executives that have created the culture that John is dealing with. You will get the Oscar winning performance from them when faced with this type of embarrassment, but they are still not motivated by product pride, just market share and fear.

Either way I hope this will scare them right by you, John. Good luck. Enough info for me to stay away from them until proven otherwise.

Rich_49

John,

This may interest you.

http://www.htproducts.com/phoenix-sanitizer.html

Good , solid units .

Shane_2

John,

Hope someone came to their senses and stepped up for you.

Please keep us all updated. Watching very closely regarding future purchases for my company.

Shane

JohnNY

Not a soul from AOS or the rep has contacted me about any of this today.
Interestingly, my supplier checked in and said his two calls to the rep today have gone to voicemail.