A.O. Smith water heater. Big problems. No help. (JohnNY) **Updated 3/27/15, 11:30am**

AlCorelliNY

And I repeat:

I will no longer use ao smith products because of the treatment you have received.

Please don't tell me not to jump to conclusions, not to bash a manufacturer and not to boycott. Because when you tell me that, you are telling me to lie down and take a beating without the benefit of self defense.

WE are out there, EVERY day, facing good customers. I should sell these people, who trust my judgment, a product that will not be backed up by the manufacturer if something goes wrong?
Sorry. Um, no. Not even sometimes.

My customers are the people who make a difference in MY life.

Al Corelli
ACA Inc.
"We Warm You in Ways You'd Never Imagine"

Serving Westchester County, NY and Lower Connecticut

JohnNY

Al, they're too big to fail and they know it. There are plenty of other manufacturers out there. We know what we have to do going forward.

Snowmelt

I switched to rheem for small residental. I am going to try the phennex .

unclejohn

If you have been in this business long enough some thing like this will happen. I have often wonder who huge company's will crap all over the little guy and then spend millions of dollars on advertising too get us to buy there product. Now a whole lot of folks are going to stay away from AOS when even a little help would have brought them atta boys all around. At least you made some money on the first sale so it should not be a total lose to buy another heater, just not another AOS heater. I would get copy's of all invoices and sale slips and write a letter too the head guy, you can find out that info on the net. It will only add 0.44c to your loses and you never know. I think a lot of CEO's are insulated and need to be told what's really happening. It worked for me with Carrier. Here I looked it up for you.

Ajita G. Rajendra
Chairman, President, and Chief Executive Officer

World Headquarters
A. O. Smith Corporation
P. O. Box 245008
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53224
USA

Will probably take a month but I bet he gets back to you.

Steamhead

Milwaukee, eh? You'd never know that by their water heater operation. But I believe that company got its start making various metal goods, so the location makes sense. Allen-Bradley, Harley-Davidson and Briggs & Stratton are all based there, as were the O-E and Sterling vapor heating companies.

Here's some more info, including physical addresses and phone numbers:

A.O. Smith Corporate Headquarters
One Park Plaza, 11270 W Park Pl # 1200
Milwaukee, WI 53224
(414) 359-4000

A.O. Smith Corporate Technology Center
12100 W Park Pl
Milwaukee, WI 53224
(414) 359-4200

This is actually to the northwest of Milwaukee itself, near the intersection of US 45 and WI 145.

And if you think we're the only ones unhappy with A.O. Smith, check out these reviews:

http://www.yelp.com/biz/ao-smith-corporate-technology-center-milwaukee

NYC007

..John that's why some have 9-5 Jobs....Those of us in our own Business Deal with Stuff like this- The 10k is nothing, stuff happens - I would have removed the Unit Immediately from the Store, replaced it with a new unit or different brand. Then try to Deal w/ AO on my time - That is so I wouldn't affect the relationship with my Customer- I am not saying this is the right way to conduct things , but I have learned as well - Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results and I follow that Law lol -Dont let it bum you out~~

JohnNY

unclejohn said:

At least you made some money on the first sale ...

I never got paid. How could I ask them to pay me when they had no hot water and were buying it from the building? The only people who made money were A.O. Smith.

JohnNY

Steamhead said:

Here's some more info, including physical addresses and phone numbers:

A.O. Smith Corporate Headquarters
One Park Plaza, 11270 W Park Pl # 1200
Milwaukee, WI 53224
(414) 359-4000

A.O. Smith Corporate Technology Center
12100 W Park Pl
Milwaukee, WI 53224
(414) 359-4200


http://www.yelp.com/biz/ao-smith-corporate-technology-center-milwaukee

Thanks, Frank. I've been made aware that the top people know of this thread and the problem this has become. They're not taking the bait, let's face it. This is how they've chosen to deal with this. They're done and they have no intention to provide an ounce of customer service. Meanwhile, I have people at Wales-Darby that I deal with for other products like Taco (I'm a big Taco guy), Uponor, Tracpipe, Sterling, Alyan, Beacon Morris....
So what do I do now? Assume I've lost support contacts and bail on those companies too?

Their silence speaks volumes.

BobC

" I've been made aware that the top people know of this thread and the problem this has become. They're not taking the bait, let's face it. This is how they've chosen to deal with this. '

I would still write a letter to the top guy, try to just state the facts - don't vent on the guy. I would also point him to this thread and tell him his company has been essentially blacklisted by a lot of the best installers in the business. How much business will he have if the pro's won't install his gear?

Even if you get no response you will know you did everything you could to fix things.

Bob

4Johnpipe

I can share my experience with a scenario relating directly to AOS. I used to stock 6 to 8 water heaters of that brand. Roughly 10 years ago they had an issue with the residential line. I was made to feel it only happened to me. Turns out that wasn't true. The last straw was a leaker in my next door neighbors home. No damage except my pride. The issue was the heater also had a defective gas valve out of the box. I changed that (no compensation). About 2 weeks later it started leaking. I had my main supplier at the time send a truck to get the remaining 6 heaters out of my shop.
As i looked around for a supplier for another brand I realized my pricing at my (main) supplier wasn't so good.
Upside is I now have more competitive pricing, better product and product support and more genuine relationships with the suppliers and the manufacturers reps of the big products.
Wales Darby is a good company with some very qualified individuals there. They also represent other great products.
All I did was drop the AO line of product. Like someone else said in here. I need only be concerned with "MY" customers best interests. The manufacturer will get along just fine without me...

jonny88

What a complete **** show.You know I had a problem with a boiler of mine on Sunday.I wont say what boiler as I am not here for product placement.I got the senior guy in their U.S market on the phone and he walked me through the problem which was electrical.That is why I likethe boiler I work with.I am surprised with Wales Darby as I have received help from them before but this is not good and has got the attention of a lot of people here.
I for one will send an email to the address that has been provided above and urge others to aswell

Rich_49

Many of us are operating within what could be considered the LARGEST MARKET in the Country . There are a couple water heater brands that in my opinion are better by far than AO .
I believe their focus has narrowed being involved in so many ventures . It's a shame that this regularly occurs with manufacturers of all kinds of products .
Some people will surely read this whom I have relationships with , to those I apologize in advance . My goal is not to hurt them in any way , shape or form . My intent is to have everyone who earns their profit by selling product to me and in turn my customer evaluate on a regular basis what products they are selling and how that company supports their product . Integrity throughout the supply chain is paramount if any business is to survive and effects our ability to offer good product that is of good quality to our customers .
Anyone within the chain that refuses to offer with integrity good service deserves whatever the outcome may be .
This thread is a good start but other actions need to be taken if we are to protect our futures and continue to offer the best products to our customers . Many regularly B%^ch and complain but are not willing to take the necessary steps to correct the problems that arise from dishonest business practices like the ones that have been brought to our attention .
We could simply identify whom the shareholders are , communicate the issues through non purchase and force the folks at the top to explain why profits are down to them .
If we have integrity greater than the companies we are purchasing from and whose products we are installing we must identify better folks with whom to give our customers monies to . there are companies that are worthy of loyalty that offer the same in return . Find them and utilize them . STOP buying ANYTHING that AOS Investment manufactures in any way . PROFIT is the first rule of business as we all know , when you don't service your product , you lose a customer . They are quite willing to accept a market share as long as the shareholders are happy . They have shown again and again that we are not the focus nor the end user , once the product is sold and the money is in their account they don't have to do anything and will continue not to as long as folks keep purchasing .

I contend that there is not another trade in the world that knows more about how applying PRESSURE in one place will cause adverse conditions in another part of a system . Time to make NPSHA be much less than NPSHR and let the system suffer with no intended benefit until the real purse string holders realize there is a problem . There are people amongst us from all over the nation watching this thread , enough to illicit the response necessary to hold those at the top accountable and make them answer the questions that would inevitably be asked by the people they are beholding to , Mr. Rajendra is at the very top of that list .

How many of you are able to earn profit like this ?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/o-smith-achieves-solid-earnings-120000711.html;_ylt=A0LEVvV7IwhVpngAyxYlnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEzdmxkMGExBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x

Research what brands they manufacture or earn profits from and find something else to use . These may be your favorite brands and brands that were aquired by them recently . You can be sure that the water heater mentality is sure to follow in time and you will encounter this same treatment by this corporate structure . When it happens remember this thread and shut your face , you allowed it .

DanHolohan

Wales Darby is a fine company, as others have said, but as reps, they can't be holier than the church. Believe me; I know, having been a rep for 19 years.

Rich_49

If the Parishioners are silent they think they are doing a fine job however

DanHolohan

Rich said:

If the Parishioners are silent they think they are doing a fine job however

Yes, and that's why I always let everyone who is involved know what's going on as soon as it starts happening. They are always welcome to come here and tell their story.

Abracadabra

JohnNY said:

Thanks, Frank. I've been made aware that the top people know of this thread and the problem this has become. They're not taking the bait, let's face it. This is how they've chosen to deal with this. They're done and they have no intention to provide an ounce of customer service. Meanwhile, I have people at Wales-Darby that I deal with for other products like Taco (I'm a big Taco guy), Uponor, Tracpipe, Sterling, Alyan, Beacon Morris....
So what do I do now? Assume I've lost support contacts and bail on those companies too?

Their silence speaks volumes.

Indeed!

JohnNY

I just had a nice chat with the Manager of Field Service Engineering at A.O. Smith.
He's sending someone to have a look next week sometime.

It looks like we're getting there.

Thanks for all the support from you, the heating service community, and HeatingHelp.com

Hopefully, A.O. Smith and I can dial back some of the bad feelings this situation has brought on and move forward to continue doing good business with each other, just as we have since my father started my business in 1976.

Best to all,
John Cataneo, NYC LMP #1784
Gateway Plumbing and Heating
www.GatewayPlumbing.com

DanHolohan

JohnNY said:

I just had a nice chat with the Manager of Field Service Engineering at A.O. Smith.
He's sending someone to have a look next week sometime.

It looks like we're getting there.

Thanks for all the support from you, the heating service community, and HeatingHelp.com

Hopefully, A.O. Smith and I can dial back some of the bad feelings this situation has brought on and move forward to continue doing good business with each other, just as we have since my father started my business in 1976.

Best to all,
John Cataneo, NYC LMP #1784
Gateway Plumbing and Heating
www.GatewayPlumbing.com

Great to hear, John. Let us know how it goes.

Shane_2

John,

Good to hear that, this week would have been nicer, but at least they are making a move to do the right thing possibly.

Would like to think they did it on their own, and maybe they did, but with over 2200 views of this post in three days or so, really makes you wonder.

Thank You Dan for this Forum as well.

Shane

JohnNY

Can we limit the threat drift here, please? It's getting hard to get through this thread with so many posts.

DanHolohan

JohnNY said:

Can we limit the threat drift here, please? It's getting hard to get through this thread with so many posts.

Yes, I did some housekeeping. Let's keep our eye on the ball with this one.

Rich_49

This thread has as many comments as it does in support of an individuals' crummy situation and a manufacturers' lack of timely customer support . I believe this thread has made an impact since those involved are watching . Much of that impact may have been due to a Threat to exercise one's right to buy a different product . A couple of references to where corporate mis management can lead to may well have been not commented on .
Good luck with the rest of your AO Smith interaction JohnNY .

Don_197

Was a warranty service company for these guys for MANY MANY years................wouldn't touch em with a 10 foot pole now. Exact same kind of experience........couldn't get paid......or when did it was less than cost. Service dept told one of my techs not to return a warranty part ($203.00 value) so he threw it away.........later received a bill for that amount (unless we could find the part) had the name and telephone number of the guy that told him not to send it back...........went back and forth for OVER 3 YEARS on this little bill..................finally the rep over the distributor came in for a visit after many years of not cisiting (huh.....late 2008.....shortly after the economy tanked go figure) and when I told him I was done with the product line.............he made the bill go away (the bill was coming DIRECTLY from the manufacturer) by crediting our account through the distributor for that amount..........so I tried doing business with that manufacturer again.........everybody deserves a 2nd chance right? Nope......not that one. Never again. Thank God Loch is still running THAT company after AO bought em............Jeff Vallett (President) is a gentleman and a scholar...will have my business anytime I can give it to him for as long as I'm around.......and Loch is still running the show with their products. I like HTP too for as long as I carried em...........I switched to Loch when the Knight came out though. @JohnNY ........ if you end up with an Armor................you AND the customer will love it. Just make sure (and I already know that you would) you follow TO THE LETTER the installation specifications..........and that the water chemistry is within spec. I have yet to find a dom water heater that runs more trouble free and efficient. Spendy AND WORTH IT!!

unclejohn

Well I try to get paid when job is complete but I do have some that are billed and my motto is that I get paid when 100% finished and customer happy. So I guess I would not have been paid either. But anyway I would not be so sure that the CEO knows of this issue, I would bet he's certainly not being told by the gal you spoke too. You would be surprised that most CEO's do not have the salesman attitude.

Snowmelt

I like walse darby too, jimmy d is my man but when it comes to aos they get scared, everyone at Wales has a nice job & they don't want to rock the boat.
IMHO

tim smith

John, I have worked with AO Smith for years. I agree that these water heaters can be a real pita. I usually have to bury into tech support myself to get to bottom of an issue my techs may be having to finally get to the bottom of it. Is there a pattern when it is going down, in am, during peak load. They are quite sensitive to gas pressure dips. Also as mentioned before the grounding of circuit is really important. I have heard pretty good things about the phoenix also but honestly, if one of the above underlying is present, it will do the same damn thing. One of my best ways I have dealt with high demand useage is either using a ps series Triangle or WHN series Lochinvar boiler with a stainless indirect water heater or stainless braze plate heat exchanger and storage tank. You will not be replacing every 3 yrs ever again. A lochinvar whn 199 and a SIT80 indirect tank will rock there hw needs. Just another avenue. I really question the viability of the condensing water heaters in high use applications where reliability is #1. I use to be able to get a hold of the head of tech support or one of there lead engineers at AO Smith but the guard has changed over the years. Glad to help if I can. email me if you like at tim@reedwrightheating.com

NYplumber

@jonny88 @JohnNY dont be so fast to praise anyone, especially Lochinvar. I was in the same predicament a few months back when I walked in to repair a few large btu Knight boilers in a commercial setting. After talking with the reps and rep repair guys I got no where. I was going to come on here and make a similar thread to this however decided to sit it out and repair the units. Three months after I started I completed the task. Lochinvar said the system was not piped to spec after they couldnt find the issue. Utter bs. The boilers were piped as per manufacturers literature (I wasnt the unstaller). I solved the problem. The client smiled and still smiles ear to ear.

So before you listen promises and promises, just know every company does this to someone at some point, you just didnt hear about it.

I work on 'em all. Lochinvar, Viessmann, TT, NTI, Noritz, Rinnai, WM.... each company has its pros and cons.

Guys, this is a new complicated world.

NYC007

John You sure said it on the Complicated World ! So Sad -

EBEBRATT-Ed

It's always been a business where you have to really bear down----hard, it wares you down. Sometimes you just put the equipment in the right way and it works!!!!
Sometimes you do and have nothing but trouble. On those jobs the harder you work the worse it seems to get. That's when you have to dig in hard.

One common thread is that the manufacturers first thing is "you installed it wrong". You can't blame them, we have all seen the hack jobs and the manufacturers are conditioned to all the cries for help, but for the people in this business that work so hard to get it right and make a few bucks it's hard to be treated that way.

I have (as many of you have) been to the mfg. plants, seen things done wrong and things done right, seen good testing and inadequate testing.

One thing I have always felt is if the service and installation manual is clear, well written and leaves you with only a few unanswered questions then the mfg. has probably done the testing and knows his equipment.

If the manual isn't clear, is ambiguous, like their keeping secrets to themselves, or you have unanswered questions...they didn't test or test enough.

JMHO

Jlamb

John,

Great post, glad to see so much support!

Unfortunately that's a manufactures "way out" by saying its undersized. Having dealt with some of the same issues. I am surprised they went that route so quickly.

Also being a quality contractor like so many have said on here. You would think that rep and even aos would just step up and do the right thing. Especially the rep they are the relationship.They should be fighting for us. It's virtually peanuts for them in the long run to ship you another water heater.

Not a good look if your aos. Bad news travels faster than good news. You need to take care of your customers good, bad or indifferent that's why your aos in the first place.

Hope you come out on top!

-Jay

4Johnpipe

@JohnNY...
How is the situation going? Inquiring minds would like to know...

tim smith

John, just had a rush issue yesterday on AO Smith high efficiency water heater we did not install, but very large restaurant in high tech corridor here in Bellevue. Water heater down in am, arrived and found bad combustion blower. Only one water heater so totally down. No one in town had the part, rep, 4 wholesalers, other companies no gots. Had to same day air it in from Portland Oregon. They had to close down for lunch, not a fun prospect for this size of restaurant with a banquet party scheduled. Ordered part at 10 am, was at airport in Seattle ready for pickup at 3pm. Installed by 5 pm and open for dinner.
I really want to praise Alaska airlines gold streak service and Ferguson enterprises for helping us make this happen. Still, these are the cyclone commercial tanks, why in the @$ don't they have parts for the many of these tanks installed? We are talking with restaurant ownership about installing backup water heater so hopefully never down again like this.

Jlamb

John,

Forgot to mention. Take a look at aerco products they have a nice lineup of water heaters and boilers. Pretty impressive.

Jay

Don_197

Have had the same issue with no parts (control boards or combustion blower in stock ANYWHERE) on the Rheem./Ruud Advantage. Reason? "thats a thousand dollar part! No one wants that kind of inventory laying around" wow......just wow.....our technicians have anywhere between 8 and 16k worth of inventory on their trucks at any given moment.

RobG

Remember the good old days when a wholesaler or rep would take a part off of a new unit to get you through an emergency?

jonny88

I am bidding on a commercial job.Two choices1 AOsmith commercial water heater x2 or 2 modcons with reverse indirect.After all this I am going to check out what Bradford White has.Water heaters are about 8k each.I know its a drop in the bucket for this company but just look how much damage they have done to their reputation.Please keep us informed @JohnNY

Rich_49

What size ar ethey that they cost that much Jonnny

tim smith

John, if this is a regular supplier of yours and you have a good relationship, I would be going to him and say give me another water heater and go replace it. Have him submit a bill to AO Smith for the change out time and get it over with. If any chance this thing is too undersized and either the tank is running out or the condensation is dripping down on flame rod and extinguishing it, then you would need to deal with. If you are pretty sure it is shutting down, you will know quickly with the new tank and let them have the other one back. By now I would have had every part replaced on the damn thing I think.

nicholas bonham-carter

The mod-cons would be certainly easier to change out, in the event of a similar scenario, and probably, the storage tank is more long lasting. Just depends on the room for the equipment.--NBC

jonny88

@Rich ,BTH 300 AO Smith.Got a couple of rinsing stations requiring 140 degree water for ideally 35 mminutes which these cant deliver its a second option.Not trying to derail thread.HTP have anything?