Frequency and Length of Steam Cycles?

crawas

Hi Fred. So what’s the ideal setting for the front dial and the knob? I know the knob should be at 1 what about the front? I just want to know your opinion on these things

ethicalpaul

The indicator is that vertical line next to “DIFF”. Not exactly a fine instrument, we know. Mine is set at “1”

crawas

Thank You! What about the setting on the front? The psi?

neilc

you had it there in the last "front" picture,
0.5 on the scale on the right, the psi scale.

crawas

I feel like that’s too low

KC_Jones

> @crawas said:
> I feel like that’s too low

Why?

crawas

What does it mean if I set the front to .5 and the differential to 1? Isnt that not enough pressure?

neilc

everyone here's doing it , , ,
try it, at worst you have to go back down there and dial it up again,
but, you won't.
disclaimer, find that other vent

crawas

If I can’t find the second vent is it a problem if I just have one added to the second main? Will too many vents on the same main be an issue?

neilc

if the other vent is / was leaking, then that would be a problem.
If you add the one by the boiler, just be sure to do as was suggested and pipe it up high to the ceiling.
We're all pretty sure that return is coming from that same main, can you identify the different return from the vented main you know?

ethicalpaul

Based on what you said before, @crawas , I think you are under the impression that your boiler/system isn’t working well for you is because you think it should be working its way to higher pressure. This is exactly wrong thinking. You want your system to deliver steam quickly to the radiators where it will give up its heat, condense back to water, and drain back to the boiler.

As it condenses, that water will take up like 1/1700 the volume of the steam it once was, lowering pressure.

At the same time, your boiler is making more steam, so it should balance out, hopefully under the cutout pressure of your pressuretrol.

But almost every single residential system is way oversized so the pressure builds and it cuts out possibly before heating the living space to the thermostat setting.

We all work to prevent that. But setting the pressuretrol higher is not the way to do it. Put it at .5 on the front (cut-in) and 1 inside (differential, to make cutout of 1.5), fix your main venting, then your radiator venting (ask here for more help if you like) and watch it run some cycles.

And buy Dan H’s book(s) on the store here.

This thread is textbook “how to vent your mains to get steam to your radiators before cut-out”. It’s awesomely helpful to you and anyone else in your situation in the future

ethicalpaul

> @crawas said:
> If I can’t find the second vent is it a problem if I just have one added to the second main? Will too many vents on the same main be an issue?


You need both mains to let their air out when the steam is coming, otherwise it doesn’t get to those radiators. Adding an extra vent on one won’t help the other. But too much venting is the least of anyone’s concern 😀

crawas

> @neilc said:
> if the other vent is / was leaking, then that would be a problem.
> If you add the one by the boiler, just be sure to do as was suggested and pipe it up high to the ceiling.
> We're all pretty sure that return is coming from that same main, can you identify the different return from the vented main you know?

I am pretty sure that the main where I found the vent on is returning somewhere other than what you see in the picture. The main vent that I found I believe returns along the side of the house

neilc

right, so, you know what you need to do, have done there,
get er done.

crawas

Replace gorton #1 with a big mouth. Add a big mouth on the dry return that’s near the boiler and try to get it as close to the ceiling as possible. Then see how the system works. If still issues, work on radiator vents. Although the 2nd floor rads all have gorton C vents. Are there even any bigger??

Fred

@crawas Set the dial on the front to .5PSI. That is the cut -in and it doesn't affect the boiler operation until the boiler cuts off. At that point the Pressuretrol know to re-fire the boiler when the pressure is below .5 PSI. The white wheel should be set at 1. That plus the Cut-in is where the boiler will shut off due to pressure at 1.5PSI. You can set the white wheel to 1.5 (midway between 1 and 2 if you want. That will shut the boiler down at 2 PSI but I would not go any higher than that.
On a different note, you must get a vent on each main. You can't have too much main venting so don't worry about over doing it. Just make sure the vent is either on the end of the main, after the last radiator run-out or anywhere on the return before it drops down to the floor/boiler.

crawas

Ok got it. I mean I can only assume that the vent I found is at the right spot. There is a little access door to it so I cant see anything around it but I remember years ago I had a leak from a return pipe in that same area which runs down to the floor and then along the side of the house. you Agree to change the gorton 1 to a big mouth?

Fred

Yes, I think that vent is in the right location. I do fully agree that the Gorton #1 should be changed out to a Big Mouth. I have Big Mouths on my system for 3 years now. Best main vent you can get, as far as I'm concerned.

crawas

Ok I just really hope that that dry return near the boiler that was pointed out to me is in fact a different main. I’m pretty sure it is but like you said, too much venting is not an issue so can’t hurt. Can only help. Will get on this tomorrow. Thanks so much for all the help everyone! I’ll report my findings back!

When everything is done correctly, how long should it normally take for second floor rads to get hot?

crawas

And can I go bigger than gorton C valves for 2nd floor?

ethicalpaul

Longer than the first floor ones. That’s why it’s typical to put slower vents on the closer radiators (to the boiler, via whatever pipes, which 1st floor typically are)

Some lucky folks might have riser vents just before the upper floor radiators but I don’t so I just have faster vents up there

crawas

So that’s what I’m saying. With Gordon C vents on the second floor and on the first floor I have gorton 4, 5, and 6 vents so how long do you think for the second floor to get hot?

KC_Jones

Once you get the main venting corrected you might have to downsize the second floor due to overheating.

This tiny rad vents are trying to do what the main venting is supposed to do and they are not doing it, because they can’t. Get the main venting corrected then think about the rad vents. The whole thing is a process.

crawas

Got it!

Fred

Also, don't get discouraged if, on the first heating cycle you don't see much improvement. Because the one main doesn't have any venting, it probably doesn't have time to heat the main all the way down the line to support steam out to the radiators. Once it gets hot, especially on cold days, the boiler will cycle enough that the mains won't get stone cold. They will be warm and take less time to bring them up to temperature. I don't remember if your header and mains are insulated. If not, try to do so as that helps more than you realize.

ImYoungxD

crawas said:

Here is a pic of the one vent I found. How do I even know if this vent is working properly?

Tear tissue into a small long piece. Put it on the vent and see if it blows.

Jamie Hall

You mentioned Brooklyn New York. There are several really good steam folks who work in that area. Try the "Find a Contractor' tab (search by State) either on the main home page or in the blue box at the top of this page.

crawas

I found someone called the steam doctor. He said to change my current vent and to repipe the second one so a new vent can be added is about $. Does that sound right? See pics.

KC_Jones

We don't discuss pricing on this site, please remove that from your post.

crawas

Noted. I didn’t know

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thanks!

crawas

Is it possible that my system only has one main line? The contractors before I bought the house left one of the main vents exposed when they finished the basement so I would imagine if there was another that they would leave that exposed as well but I don’t see it. See pic attached. I was told it looks like this is 2 main pipes but maybe not? Someone mentioned one of these pipes being a dry return. Is that the same as a main?

KC_Jones

Mains in red what should be a dry return in blue.

KC_Jones

Also in the above, somewhere down the line the pipe in blue meets up with the left side red pipe, that is educated guess based on the pipe positions in that picture. Wherever the red makes the turn to come back on the blue pipe is the end of main.

If the covered it, it either didn't have a vent or they for some reason didn't realize it needed one. If it has a vent it would be really good to find it, if it ever fails open it will makes it's position apparent with the water damage.

My guess is it didn't have one, but in my house guesses don't fly.

crawas

So based on this pic, where would you put the main for the left side red pipe? I don’t want to break walls or anything. I BELIEVE the vent I found in the back of the house is attached to the main that’s on the right but how can one ever be sure. Aaahhhh! So much guesswork when walls Are all closed up

KC_Jones

crawas said:

So much guesswork when walls Are all closed up

This is why I am a huge advocate of leaving access to all mechanical systems, otherwise one ends up in the situation you have.

You should be able to tell somehow. The steam pipes hang relatively low, you should either have very low ceilings or more likely bulkheads built around them. Look at that dry return, it won't elevate "that much" as it goes through the basement. There should be clues, and honestly if it was me, I'd resign myself to having to put holes in the wall to be sure.

Like I said based on the little bit I see there the left pipe and dry return are together.

Fred

@crawas, that blue pipe is the dry return. When it drops to below the boiler water line, it becomes a wet return. You can put a vent right there, by the boiler before it drops to the floor.

For clarity, the two larger pipes, coming off of your boiler header, implies there are two mains. Where they each go is the unknown but there should also be a return at the end of each of those mains.

crawas

So the dry return thats near the boiler is separate from the two returns that will be at the end of each of those mean?

Fred

The dry return that begins at the end of one of the mains, after the last radiator run-out turns and comes back to the boiler (blue pipe). then drops to the floor and returns water back to the boiler. The other Main should have a similar return pipe off of the end of it but if it isn't a dry return and visible (like the one in blue), it may drop to the floor and become a wet return elsewhere in the basement. If you can look into that opening, where the one vent you have is located, you should see where that pipe goes, after the vent.
You should also see two return pipes, probably coming from different directions at the floor, behind your boiler. They may be tied together with a Tee and then connect to what becomes your Hartford loop.

ratio

If you can locate the appx locations of the risers going upstairs to the radiators that might give you a rough idea of where the main runs. The missing vent should be somewhere past the last riser, around where the main probably turns down into a return.