Frequency and Length of Steam Cycles?

crawas

Also I spoke to my plumber and he said for my size house there is definitely no need for a gorton #2 main vent. He says the #1 is more than sufficient but it of course needs to be working. Maybe I’ll just change it to a new #1 vent just to see if it helps.

KC_Jones

crawas said:

Also I spoke to my plumber and he said for my size house there is definitely no need for a gorton #2 main vent. He says the #1 is more than sufficient but it of course needs to be working. Maybe I’ll just change it to a new #1 vent just to see if it helps.

The vent size goes by pipe size and length. The volume should be calculated and then the venting is determined. Only the tiniest mains can get away with a #1 vent. I'd speculate most houses need at least 1 #2 vent and these days, unless you need a float, most will go for the big mouth.

I think you might need to find a new professional. Where are you located we may know someone competent in your area.

crawas

Brooklyn NY

crawas

From my boiler to where the main vent is that I found is at least 30ft (without measuring)

KC_Jones

You need a big mouth vent, I would consider a #2 the minimum for that much piping.

For the other main you need to either find the main vent, and most likely replace or add one if it doesn’t have one.

You can not get the system balanced until the main venting is correct.

crawas

Here is a pic of the one vent I found. How do I even know if this vent is working properly?

crawas

Do you happen to know any people in Brooklyn NY?

crawas

Here is a pic of the NBP again.
The main going into the ceiling I believe is the one that I found the vent on. Do you see any other main pipes?

KC_Jones

You have 2 mains highlighted in red. Have you tried the find a contractor link on this site?

ethicalpaul

> @crawas said:
> Here is a pic of the one vent I found. How do I even know if this vent is working properly?

I go stand next to mine after the boiler starts boiling after a call for heat and hold my finger in front of the vent hole. I gently rest my other hand on the main leading to it so I know when the steam is coming.

Feel for and listen for air escaping ahead of the steam and see if it closes after the steam hits.

crawas

So the second main that turns left is the one that I can’t find the vent for. If there even is one then it’s definitely hidden inside the ceiling or walls down here. The one I found is in the back of the house and the main and boiler are towards the front of the house. I just ran a test. Turned the boiler on and it took about 17-18 minutes for the pipe near the main vent to get hot and the same amount of time for any radiators on the first floor to start getting hot. I didn’t even get to check the 2nd floor ones. Does this sound normal?

crawas

> @ethicalpaul said:
> > @crawas said:
> > Here is a pic of the one vent I found. How do I even know if this vent is working properly?
>
> I go stand next to mine after the boiler starts boiling after a call for heat and hold my finger in front of the vent hole. I gently rest my other hand on the main leading to it so I know when the steam is coming.
>
> Feel for and listen for air escaping ahead of the steam and see if it closes after the steam hits.

I stood by the main vent and it took about 18 minutes for steam to even reach the pipe near it and I didn’t hear any hissing of air at all.

crawas

And the boiler only ran about 20 minutes for the whole cycle so I doubt any rads on the second floor got hot because not even all the ones on the first floor got hot yet

KC_Jones

My mains are a little shorter than your 30 feet. When my boiler is warm (fired within the past hour) my main is fully hot within 3 minutes of the burner firing. All rads have steam within 4 minutes.

Your times sound excessive and are most certainly why you are having distribution problems.

If you could get down to the times I suggest, the time differential would all be gas savings.

crawas

Ok so here is my plan.

-Replace the one main vent I DID find with a #2 big mouth vent. Do they use the same threading as the gorton #1 or so I need to buy any nipples or adapters?

-Call my plumber to come and add a second main vent to the other main. Does it mater where on the main the vent goes because there is just what’s around the boiler that’s exposed?

Then try the system and see the times.

KC_Jones

The vent needs to be at the end of the main furthest from the boiler. If you have dry overhead returns you can put them at the end of that. Putting a vent on that main right at the header is a waste. See picture that might be the end of the dry return for that main.

It’s a Gorton #2 OR a Barnes & Jones Big Mouth, they are 2 different vents. I doubt your plumber even knows about the Big Mouth if they don’t even understand the basics of venting. The Big Mouth is the same thread as the #1 you have, a Gorton #2 vent will need a bushing as it’s smaller threads.

crawas

Ok so the one vent I did find seems to be in the right spot so I think that’s the first step is to change that. I googled a pic of the big mouth and the thread looks much smaller than the gorton #1 vent.

crawas

My bad. I see the pic clearer now. So should I go to gorton #2 or the big mouth which you said is equivalent to what I already have?

KC_Jones

Yes the thread on the Big Mouth is the same as what you have now. The Gorton #2 has a smaller thread.

On the main that is lower you will have to do some measuring. It looks low and if it’s too low and the pressure runs too high you could back up the condensate and the Big Mouth will let that out. The Gorton would be a better choice as it has a float to prevent this.

That being said it’s better overall to run at very low pressures, but unless we know how your boiler size compares to your system we really couldn’t speculate if that’s possible. Most boilers we see on here are oversized.

crawas

Aaaahhhhhhh!
Can you let me know how you would go about this to start with if you were me?

The pressure is usually steady around 2# when the boiler is running even for a continuous amount of time.

Should I start with a new gorton #1 then? Because i didn’t even hear any air coming out of the gorton when I turned the boiler on

KC_Jones

You don’t have enough venting and 2# is IMHO way too high. I’ve never seen about 4 ounces on mine.

Boiler sizing and main venting dictate the pressure, you want it to be as low as you can possibly go.

Don’t just replace with a #1 vent it’s too small, that I am positive of.

crawas

So what should I replace it with? Tell me exactly what to buy and I’ll replace it with that

KC_Jones

If it was my system it would get a Big Mouth in place of the #1 vent, but you need to add a vent to the other main at the same time, otherwise you could make things worse.

crawas

> On the main that is lower you will have to do some measuring. It looks low and if it’s too low and the pressure runs too high you could back up the condensate and the Big Mouth will let that out. The Gorton would be a better choice as it has a float to prevent this.


What do you mean by this?

KC_Jones

Pressure pushes condensate up into the return lines. 1 pound of pressure is equal to ~28” of water column. So if you run at 2 psi that means you have water in the return piping at a height of 56”. The main that you can’t find a vent on looks low to me, if it’s indeed getting water in it you would want a vent with a float, Gorton has a float the Big Mouth does not.

Now, for me a better idea is get the pressure down with better venting and a properly sized boiler. You can currently only control one of these variables, that being venting. You can also dial down the pressurtrol to limit the pressure, it appears yours might be a bit high. That is the grey box on the side of the boiler, take a pic so we can see the setting better.

ratio

Finding/adding venting in the other main is pretty important. The entire main seems to be venting through the radiators, that explains why it's slow to heat but eventually does heat. Once you find that, either size the venting properly (need to know entire length & diameter of the main) or just add a Big Mouth to each one for starters; and turn the pressure down to 1½ PSIG with a ½ differential (search The Wall for instructions on that).

After that, it may be time to fiddle with the cycle rate—you may find that 2 or even 3 works better!

crawas

Ok here are some pics. One is of the pressure gauge that I took after the boiler was running for 60 minutes straight. The others are the pressuretrol

KC_Jones

Yes too high, you basically want it as low in the scale as possible. Also inside the cover is a white wheel, it should be set to 1.

I would get the venting squared away before adjusting the pressurtrol.

crawas

So don’t even touch the pressuretrol yet?

Ok so I’m going to change the gorton #1 that’s there to a big mouth and I’m going to add a big mouth to the second main at the end of the dry return?

KC_Jones

ONce you get the vents changed, turn the pressurtrol down at that point. Yes about the vents, put the new one and end of dry return on a long nipple to keep it up high, like close to the ceiling high.

crawas

Is this red circle on the attached pic where I should put the new main vent? How can I even be sure that this isn’t the same main pipe that already has the vent? That these mains don’t connect to each other somewhere inside the walls?

crawas

Here are pics of inside the pressuretrol

Fizz

You might want to remove vent and run boiler with open pipe to see if that makes a difference, also, it won't hurt to set p-trol to .5, and as KC said, the inside to 1, since your's is an addative p-trol and by
setting it this way your pressure should get no higer than 1.5.

crawas

Do I set the white knob inside to in between 5 and 1? The white knob has 1-5 only and where do I set the knob to know what it’s set on? Like I don’t see an arrow indicator to even know which setting this knob is set to

crawas

> @Fizz said:
> You might want to remove vent and run boiler with open pipe to see if that makes a difference, also, it won't hurt to set p-trol to .5, and as KC said, the inside to 1, since your's is an addative p-trol and by
> setting it this way your pressure should get no higer than 1.5.

Yes the inside white knob is set to 1. I mean I think it is. There is no indicator to show me what it’s set to. The 1 is blocked underneath something.

So on the face of the pressure setting, see attached pic. There is the right side which says PSI and the left side which says KG. What is it set on now?

ratio

It's set to ≈0.5 PSIG cut in & if the '1' on the white dial is facing out (more or less) you're set about as good as you can get with a pressuretrol. The 'KG...' is a dual scale, kilograms per square centimeter for our metric brethren.

crawas

That’s where I’m confused. With the white knob. I have no clue what it’s set on as there is no indicator. See attached now for what the white knob looks like

ratio

The line on the switch itself, marked 'DIFF'. Looks like it's set to about 2¼, change it to 1. That'll shut the burner off when the pressure reaches 'cut-in' (on the front) + 'DIFF', so about 1½ PSIG—currently it's nearly 3 PSIG.

It's not a precision device.

crawas

Ok got ya!! Thanks!

So is this a good Setting? Should I set the front to one with a differential of one?

Fred

If the "1" is blocked, under something, it is set wrong. The "1" should be facing the front of the unit, with the cover you removed being the front.