Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product

TonyS

No problem Dan

If I am wrong, and Tim doesn't receive any money from any vested party whether indirectly or directly. I was wrong and I am sorry.

Gordan

As an observer...

There's a difference between a lively debate and a libely debate. It is one thing to accuse someone of being wrong, and quite another to accuse them of knowingly misrepresenting. It's not just Tim's reputation at stake, Tony - yours is, too. Prospective customers read these forums. Having seen some people's posts, for what it's worth - and it may not be much - I personally wouldn't consider hiring them, because they come off as abrasive and self-righteous and I would fear that any miscommunication or disagreement would result in a blow-up.

Gordan

Weak.

Where I come from, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

DanHolohan

TonyS

If you look at the top of the Wall, you'll note that one of the rules is that people be nice. I've had a bellyful of nasty people come here in the 15 years that I've had this site up and I've gotten rid of each of them. The site is far better without them.



I've found many of your comments to others to be nasty, sarcastic, and downright cruel. I'm not alone in this, as you can see by the comments of your peers.  This will be my last warning to you. Treat people with the respect they deserve as human beings and fellow tradespeople. Be nice or I'll close your account without comment and no one will ever hear from you again on this site.



That's my last word on this subject.

jp_2

Juries are experts

thats why this country is in trouble, the wrong people deciding whats safe or not.  look at the simple extention cord that come with an encycolpedia of safety information.



tim spoke clarity about the subject.    considering the voltage and current within a lighting strike, it goes where it dam well pleases, up down in out, can careless about a grounding rod as we would like to think....... grounding helps, but its not fool proof.



bravo tim!

CMadatMe

The Suit

If I were on the jury I would have voted the same way. In essence they admited they never tested what would happen in reagrds to a lighting strike. The installation manuals also at the time never gave a procedure for properly bonding the product as they do now. Obviously this was an issue they were aware of prior to this suit and the class action suit or they would have never developed counter strike.



Its not about the product itself it's about Omega Flex's lack of testing to make sure the product wouldn't kill someone or destroy ones property in my opinion.

Jean-David Beyer

Belt and Suspenders....

Let us say I decide to be as safe as possible, and replace the CSST with black pipe. Does the code require that my gas pipe be bonded and grounded anyway? Or is it just a good idea? Or is it a Bad idea?

Ironman

Proves Nothing

Tony,

 The fact that someone sells CSST on eBay is a non sequitor that does not prove anything. There is a multitude of things being sold on the Internet that shouldn't be. How about just about every make of mod/con, gas furnace,cond. unit, heat pump, radiant pipe and manifolds, Tekmar controls, Grundfos pumps, refrigerant, gas valves, parts, etc.?



I,m sure if someone could figure out how to box up 21ft of black iron pipe and ship it UPS, it would be available on eBay too.



Your comment to Tim about receiving checks from CSST manufacturers is wrong and un-called for. He gave facts and dealt with the issue. You resorted to name calling and innuendo - the last resort of a defeated foe.

Ironman

Bonding Required

JDB,



The code requires bonding of all metallic gas lines.

Mark Eatherton

I feel the manufacturers pain...

How WOULD you test for a near lightning strike?



Build a HUGE Tesla coil near the house, and have it discharge static electricity into the air near the building with the properly grounded/bonded tubing in place?



I don't think ANYONE can guarantee piping stability of ANY type of pipe with lighting. It is too unpredictable. My grandfather and grand mother both had near death experiences with lightning.



My grandfather was sitting in his house, at a kitchen table, with a friend sitting across from him, when lightning hit a power line outside of his home. A ball of lightning the size of a basket ball bounced off the direct hit, bouncing twice on the ground, came through the picture window, went between him and his friend, and blew up the heating element on his electric stove. Cracked the window, but did not break it.



My grand mother had her hair up in metallic curlers (small Coors Banquet beer cans) when a thunderstorm came up quickly. Her horses were panicking, so she ran outside to try and calm them down. Lightning hit the cupola of the barn and shot everywhere around her. She did not take a direct hit, but it set a permanent curl in her hair that took a year to grow out. She said there were little balls of lightning EVERYWHERE. They left little black holes in the ground.



I'd LOVE to see a set of ANSI standards of how to go about testing the tubing for near lightning hits.



As for the jury, they did what they were instructed to do. Review the evidence and issue a judgement. Both sides had the opportunity to vette the jury and expel anyone they want. It avoids having anyone with too much expertise in the jury box that could influence the decisions made by the jury. It's about as fair a process as you can get.



Will be interesting to see what the net outcome of the juries decision will be.





ME

CMadatMe

Testing

Could we use an electric chair? How did they test for "Counter Strike"?

SpeyFitter

Heard a rumour

I heard a rumour somewhere, that at some big box stores in the USA in certain areas, they were selling CSST and something along the lines of there was a brochure they had beside it and if you read the brochure and signed your name at the back, you were now a certified CSST installer and could buy it.  This to me, if it's true, and I suspect there is some truth to it, is the equivilence of this stuff starting to look like PEX for water lines for DIYers. Not saying Pex is a bad product either, I think it's a great product, but because of its ease of installation it is looked at as a DIYer product for many.

NH03865

Testing is easy

Lightning testing is already well defined by National and international standards.

Here is one place that performs direct and indirect testing



http://www.lightningtech.com/f_sets/laboratory.html

Mark Eatherton

Wow....

Whoda thunk.



I'm impressed. Like to see what their electricity bill is :-)



ME

NH03865

Electric Bill

I don't know what their electric bill is, but they can afford it.  I work at a test lab that performs product safety testing and EMI testing (military and commercial)  We have had military customers request that we coordinate the lightning testing.  I have seen the quotes for those jobs.  Let's just say, I could have put my son through college for just lightning testing one of those products.

Tom Blackwell_2

Damage

While not specifically about CSST, I have personally seen many condensing units that had holes burned in the tubing inside the sheet metal casing with no external damage. Also have a picture of lightning hitting a transmission line tower where the magnetic forces caused the lightning to bow out away from the tower leg and go to ground. There is still a lot that is not known about this phenomenum, and stray currents caused by a near lightning strike do a lot of damage.  Anything subject to puncture from an arc would be at risk.  It will be interesting to see where this pans out.  Stay tuned...

TonyS

Lightning testing on aircraft

Direct and indirect hits have to be tested thoroughly. Not only can they not blow holes in fuel lines but sensitive electronic equipment must continue to operate.

There is only one reason why they dont test it.. because it cant pass.

Could you imagine next time your flying through a thunderstorm and the pilot comes back and tells you that this model aircraft hasn't been tested for lightning strikes but we feel it should work. This company knows this, im sure they talk about this with their lawyers everyday. They are just putting corporate profits before human safety.

Tim McElwain

Boy I go to work

and teach a class all day and come back and we are still at it concerning the CSST issue.



By the way i accept the apology From you Tony, Thank you.

Mark Eatherton

I don't think its going to go away Tim...

I have a feeling its going to snowball on us and end up being as much a debacle as Entran 2, Plexvent, Polysuitelene and (insert company name here) potable water dezincifacation fittings.



This is one of the major reasons that we can't get some of the innovative European products over on this side of the pond. "Too many lawyers".



ME

Big Will

I wonder

How far it will go. I work in San Fransisco and the four counties north of it. we see lightning very seldom. Years will go by between ground strikes. I cannot remember a time when we had a fire as a result of lightning. That said insurance companies have paranoid down to an art. San Fransisco has never allowed it. However it would not surprise me if it becomes a no go as a result of this. 

TonyS

No problem Tim

I , in no way intended to be nasty or cruel or in anyway consider myself to be your

"defeated foe". I think my attitude reflects years of boxing, whereas I get in the ring and try to break your face or I get my brains rattled and then we go get something to eat. Some guys are more sensitive, I don't think you are..I was feeling some pretty good sarcasm coming from you lol. I respect you and read and learn many things from your post.

Tony

Steamhead

Not a rumor any more

my partner went to Lowes and there it was. I wonder where they're getting it- maybe from a distributor? We've seen that before where Home Depot was displaying Slant/Fin boilers- they were getting them not from the factory, but from a distributor who didn't care who they sold to.

Mark Eatherton

Let's ban lightning....

Just kidding :-)



ME

Jean-David Beyer

The code requires bonding of all metallic gas lines.

OK: so the gas inspector should get demerits at his next salary review? Because, CSST or not, none of the gas pipe is grounded or bonded. Or should the electrical inspector get the demerits? Or both?

Ex Maine Doug

I lived in central Florida for many years

and saw a lot of lightning strikes and results of lightning strikes.  We had almost 30 locations in the state and a lot of electronic gear.  "Protected", and I use the term loosely, or not, lightning went where it wanted to go.

Hit my neighbor's house next door. Went in at the peak of a gable and travelled thru that end of the house. Zapped all the appliances and the house caught fire. Watched lightning take out a sub-station that had the usual pointy rods up in the air. Spectactular and frightening display. Turns out that Florida is one of the hot spots for lightning so we had many shows.

In Canada lightning hit a transformer on the power pole providing the 220vac to my parents house. I was sitting near a window reading and darned near peed my pants. The blast was so loud it made my ears ring and the flash could have given you a tan.  Nothing damaged in the house but the transformer was mostly gone and the pole was cooked.

I wonder how effective is bonding where it creates ground loops. In any case I do not want to be close enough to see the event. 

EddieG

We...

We have a cool little thing over at a Navy base close to me. It is two towers with wires between them. They take jets and pull them under the cables and simulate lightning strikes. Maybe I'll see if they will let we set a roll of CSST under there!!!!LOL

francoathie

return to work

I have recently returned to work after having had a work related injury. I received CSST benefits for over a year. I am able to continue working at my job, with a few restrictions. I would like to know if my employer can terminate my employment for any reason, at any time.

Thank you in advance for any information.

Jean-David Beyer

Alphabet Soupe tastes bad.

I will assume you are not joking.



In the context of this web site, CSST stands for Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing used for gas piping in some areas. It may be illegal in others. Its use seems to be very controversial.



In Provence of Quebec in Canada, it stands for Commission de la Santé et de la Sécurité du Travail du Québec (French: Occupational Health and Safety Commission, Quebec, Canada). There might be someone here that knows about the law establishing the commission and its policies. But surely you could find a more appropriate venue to discuss it.

Rod

CSST in Quebec, Canada

Hi- I'm not sure but I think you are looking for information from CSST (La Commision de la Sante et de la Securite du Travail du Quebec)  You can probably get your question answered at their website at this link :   http://www.csst.qc.ca/index.htm

The "CSST" discussed on this website is a type of piping for natural gas.

Bonne Chance!

- Rod

Mark Eatherton

I don't think it matters David...

I am sure the AHJ would prefer that the person doing the bonding be a properly licensed electrician, but this is one area of grey that has yet to be decided. Regardless of WHO does it, the tubing MUST be properly grounded/bonded. If it is not, and there is a lightning strike, the homeowners insurance company will claim that the installation is defective, and will try and deny any fire coverage. They will also point the finger of blame at anyone and everyone who ever had knowledge of the installation and or had anything to do with the installation.



I recently became involved in a case that had a significant amount of CSST installed in a brand new 12,000 sq ft home. There was an 1-1/2" main CSST coming into the home, and 12 to 14 branches going from a manifold throughout the home. When I first started CONSULTING on the boilers in this home, I noted that the CSST was not bonded and suggested they do so. (Thanks Chris for brining it to my attention) They hired a friend of mine in the area who does service plumbing, and he bonded the main line coming in per the manufacturers instructions. When I returned for subsequent consultation, I noted that the grounding met the manufacturers minimum, and said that due to the fact that some of the appliances (gas log fire places with millivolt pilot generators) didn't have an earth ground, that they should hire an electrician who was working in the home daisy chain the ground from the main to the nuts on the individual branches in an attempt to provide "omni potential grounding" per the manufacturer of the tube.



Long story short, there was a lightning strike within 6/10ths of a mile of the home, and the fire department was only 5 minutes away, and by the time they got there, the home was FULLY involved. They did a quick search/sweep inside, and fortunately, no humans were home. I happened to be watching TV at the time, and saw an aerial view from the news stations helicopter. I recognized the home immediately. There is no worse of a feeling knowing the occupants of a home, and seeing it on fire, and not knowing for sure if they got out safely...



The Fire department said they had never seen this hot a fire in their existence. They brought in 5 other fire companies to put it out, and all they could do was standby and watch the house collapse into the basement...



The bottom line appears to be, regardless of what the manufacturers are claiming, this stuff is deadly. We discovered numerous holes in the CSST where it came near and crossed metal support beams. 1/4" holes burned through the walls of the tubing. With 2 PSI propane on the system, it fueled the fire to the point that all brass was vaporized (bonding clamps no where to be found) and caused all copper to become embrittled.



I have to be careful what I can say because the case is still ongoing, but the best advice I can give to anyone considering using this stuff is to tell them to do due diligence and research problems associated with the product before making a decision to use it.



I was recently cleared by the homeowners insurance company, but suspect I will hear from the manufacturers attorneys soon. The moral of the story appears to be, that even when you DO do the RIGHT thing, it WILL come back to bite you in the butt. Myself, my friend the service plumber, the electrician, the heating contractor were all named as possible subrogates (sharing in the costs of repair) because of our involvement. Had I NOT made the suggestions that I did, the homeowner probably would NOT have had any fire coverage...



No good deed goes unpunished.



FWIW, there is over 5,000,000 linear feet of this stuff floating around out there, most of it improperly or not even bonded/grounded. If you have some out there that is NOT grounded, it would probably be a good idea to get out there and ground it, even though it does not appear to make any difference. If you DON'T properly ground it, and there is an issue, your insurance policy most probably WILL have to share in the costs of repair, if not cover everything.



In the eyes of the jury, doing the right thing will have more sway in getting you cleared of any wrong doings.



As my friend said, it makes you think twice about doing the right thing... And this guys is about as ethical as they come.



ME

clammy

lately lurking but could not help posting

all i know is i have seen 2 jobs and took a look at another that all suffered pin holes from lighting strikes and none where direct to the home all where at least 500 to 1000 ft away .My feeling is this stuff is a skill less home owner product .I clearly remenber going to a train semair back in the late 80.s and i basicially seemed to be geared towards LP installes being there exepted you to run higher pressure and have remote regulators which to myself did not seem to save any coin .I myself have never installed it under my own name but have tossed a few miles of it in as a sub and as i thought before and still think it is garbage and as tradeless as some  one running pex.Yeah yeah yeah all produts have there place and i do use pex but as time goes on i seem to be switching back to ways of old and using more copper( for portable water got my reasons ) and steel but as for gas piping i won't use csst it is a skilless product that any one can install including miguel and carlos at least in my area and as for selling only to those that are certified that is a bunch of horse $hit they will sell to anyone same goes for refregerant certs ,i know just picked up some mitizubushi mini splits from a supply house that i am not a regular at but i pay my bills and i  aked if they wanted by cert # they stated not needed all a chase for the glorious non existing non real money the true root of all evils but this just my view being i do not live surrounded by a large home or a million toys to fill the shallowness of my personality .CSST is just another tool to allow the skill less the ablity to make money to feed the excess which most live under .Just my feelings  fire away bash away if you like just being the clam and firing from the most honest spot my gut .Peace and good luck clammy

Charlie from wmass

Clammy as usual

you put it plain and true. I was told I needed to get re-certified to install CSST. It is the code in my fair state. I never bothered as I do not install it. I sell skilled labor. Installing CSST is not in my best interest as killing future work could be literal with this type of product. I am also such a large amount of my boilers are steam boilers as I have much less in the way of P.V.C. venting out there on jobs. I still have some and I hope it holds up well. But hope is not a way to run a business like ours where peoples lives are truly at stake if what we do is not safe.

clammy

no recert as i see

Thanks for your honesty charlie ,i have yet to see any re certifaction classes at my local supply house and i doubt that they would enforce it any way .As for bonding or grounding  i have yet to see any on any CSST including a large commerical building which i do some service in ,And as i goes those counter strike plate and such that are required to be used are yet to be seem by myself on any jobs where Csst was installed and inspected plus the guys who use that stuff thruly believe that they should not have to spend the extra money on that stuff it really cuts into the profit .Aside form electrical inspections and plumbing waste and vent the inspection in my area seems to be way much more about collecting a fee then really looking at the quality of work ,they just make sure that what should be there is there and thats about it .As for bonding or grounding of gas servies while i have yet to see that at all on any jobs that i have been on and have never had a inspector say boo or question where it was located ,maybe i got lucky but i don,t think so i usually never do.I remenber a product many many years ago which was for refregeration and slightly simalar to CSST but the inside was plastic with a corragrated  outer sleave and a another sealtight like plastic shell ,alot of it delveloped leaks and the great product that it was went the way of the dodo.I still run into it here and there and usually the unit is short of refregerant due to suction line leaks ,we just replace it .I believe that in years to come there will be more issues with csst .I personally have question the brains at a few supply house about the grounding issues and they kinda blew it off i guess it is not there promblem they just sell the crap .I would say the worst thing i see is guys that are to lazy to cut and thread some steel pipe when they do a boiler and run a 2 or 3 ft piece of that crap from the existing gas shut off to the new gas valve of course no drip,no bonding ,no union  and get a shiney inspection sticker on the new boiler ,gotta love that yeahhh.Really looks like a tuxedo with converse sneakers at a wedding really sweet .Just shooting right from the holster peace and good luck clammy

CMadatMe

Re-Certification Omega-Flex Trac Pipe

Considering that in Sept Omega Flex is no longer going to make Trac-Pipe and only make Counter-Strike available thru distribution channels there should be a new certification requirement by them.

Davebert

Lightning strike to Dryer CSST line

This just happened to us on Saturday evening. Luckily we were home and got the fire out quickly. Turned off the gas line. The hole that was punctured in this tube was large. If we hadn't been home..... This stuff needs to be taken out of homes. It is much too dangerous.

icesailor

Religious experiences:

If you found a Holy experience in a connection to your gas dryer, you might want to consider a lightning suppression system.

I had a new house I built that I lived in for 2 months. It was hit twice in 6 weeks. You can't believe the damage. I didn't have any gas lines. But I DID have a 2" Galvanized well pipe for my shallow well water pump. I had run a 1/2" copper water line from a sill cock beside the panel back to the pump. I grounded/bonded the panel etc to the 1/2" copper, back to the pump, and jumper from the copper to the well. Even though it was a direct metal connection through the pump. The first strike took out a corner of a chimney and came through the roof. Blew up the control for my jetted tub. The second strike did similar damage inside and blew up the tub control. I had a lightning suppression system installed and was never hit again. Although every house around me was hit often. You have to give lightning a place to go to where it wants to go. You can't live without it if you live on this earth. It creates Nitrogen, If you don't use Nitrogen in your daily functions, you aren't of this earth. Our atmosphere is 80% nitrogen.

Check out the PBS Nova recent program on Lightning and these things called "Sprites" that come out of clouds ABOVE lightning storms and travel UP to the Ionosphere. They are pink in color and look like an exploding firework.

Don't futz with lightning. It will kill you. I live in South Florida now. The Lightning Capitol of the World.

Read this article. Read it first. The video is related but not about Sprites. If you're in an unprotected building and there's a lightning storm, go sit in your truck.



http://news.discovery.com/earth/weather-extreme-events/red-sprites-lightning-130822.htm

jumper

icesailor beat me to the punch

Why not lightning rods?

Zman

Bonding

Davebert,

Was the line bonded?

Mark Eatherton

Solution to the problem...

I have a solution to this problem. As stated WAY up in this thread, there is a LOT of this stuff in homes throughout the world, and it is just not real to think we can deconstruct peoples homes to repipe in rigid pipe. I know for a fact that the people who make this stuff also frequent this site and read these threads, so I HOPE that they view my recommendation as an inexpensive solution to a potentially ex$pen$ive problem.



There exists on the market, a device known as a "Near strike lightning detector". It is adjustable and can be set to detect strikes within 1 mile of its location. They are used on golf courses to warn golfers of pending lightning dangers.



There also exists normally closed solenoids rated for use with gaseous fuels. They are used in conjunction with LP detectors here in certain parts of Colorado, and shut down the fuel distribution systems outside of the building served if LP is detected.



If these two units are combined (lightning detector and solenoid) and a near strike is detected, the fuel valve is closed when a near strike is detected, annunciating a BEEP BEEP audible signal inside the affected dwelling, requiring the consumer to call their plumber to retest the vessel integrity of the CSST system, and if clear, reset the system to allow fuel to flow again.



Seems a lot cheaper to me than possibly having your product banned by the NFPA and being forced to recall ALL of your material from the field.



i have documented the date of the idea of conception of this product, but I never pursued it any further.



Remember me and my family in your will…



ME