Pro Press fittings

DanHolohan

I think

that this has been a good and fair discussion. Everyone who cared to has had his say. Everyone has respectfully (for the most part) listened to the thoughts of others. And now reasonable people can decide what they want to do with this product.

Thanks again, Glenn. And thanks to everyone who participated.

Unknown

Thanks Dan,

God I HOPE it`s over!

Dave

Bill Pidgeon_2

Test

Test

Harold

Dave, my sentiments as well. I was not intending to continue this. I am getting really tired of this too. But I really feel that there is a point or two that needs to be made about the Viega response.

If it is “an extremely rare occurrence", they don't know why it happens, and cannot reproduce it, why do they declare it is normal and not fix it when it occurs?

Continuing a metaphor from the response; if my engine is not working properly, should I remove it from the car, put in a spare engine that requires different mounting points at my expense, replace the oil and antifreeze, and ship the original engine to the manufacturer to see if it is faulty.

Generally speaking, the "attack on a public site" has been mostly prompted or continued by the lack of meaningful response or remedy to the problem. This has not improved in my opinion.

Yes, at least one homeowner is looking for something; solder. And I was quite clear with Viega on this point when the three representatives visited. There is really no clean way to replace many of the ProPress connections with another ProPress device. In many cases there simply is not enough room/pipe to use. I WILL NOT have a system with some of each type of coupling. Overall it would just look like crap if it was attempted.

Overall, my existing, and very nicely executed, installation is made ugly by the "stains". A major point is that I have no basis to believe that a (actually many) joint that leaked once will spontaneously heal and not recur. I can't think of anything offhand that has ever worked in the long term this way except perhaps cutting my finger. But that is a biological process and designed to work that way.

Really - lets stop this. My view - my stuff is broke, they won't fix it. Their view - it ain't broke. Debate is unlikely to change this. I appreciate the dialog. It has been quite insightful in many cases. All you guys need to go on with whatever you are comfortable using.

EJW_3

Tootsie Pop

Not testing the fittings is like the the age old question. "How many licks to the center of a Tootsie Pop?" "The world may never know."

EJW

[Deleted User]

I understand perfectly what Wheezey said...

That's why I appreciate his point of view :-)

ME

[Deleted User]

Glycol CAN make a grown man cry...

I know, because I've cried over it. Natch, bottom of the system and on a Friday at 4:30 PM of a long weekend...

And this was on a soldered/screwed system. Typically leaks at the doped threads, and ANY solder joint that was previously compromised or mis-soldered in the first place.

But interestingly, have thousands of joints done with ProPress and have not seen any leaks. And most of those have glycnoids flowing through them.

Only leak I ever saw on PP was installer error (clipped O ring).

ME

[Deleted User]

I'm not an attorney....nor do I play one on TV...

nor on the weekends. But if it were me, I wouldn't be discussing your situation in public.

And I am POSITIVE that the bevy of lawyers that I work for would agree...

But it IS a free world... And it IS your money that's going to those lawyers...

ME

[Deleted User]

It's not HAROLDS PROBLEM....

It just happens to live in his house.

To be perfectly honest, if Harold were my customer, the system would have already been replaced at my expense, and it would then be ME and Ridgid Viega's problem, and I guarantee you we would know what the cause was, and the cause could be something as simple as the installer "spinning" the fitting onto the pipe, thereby shaving just a HAIR'S worth of rubber off of the face of the O ring, and voila, seepage...

With water, it would probably self heal (just like the thousands of poorly soldered joints out there, you know, the ones with the white fur) and we wouldn't have eaten all this band width talking about nothing.

Then the green stain showed up.

I submit, unprofessionally of course, that this is an isolated event, because of the number of people who frequent this web site and use the product. I assure you, if there is EVER a problem with ANY piping system, it will discovered, discussed and resolved faster than you can say inadvertent seepage. And that doesn't spell leak. A leak is a continuous flow. This is not as far as I can tell...

Where's the installer on this? I'd be on it like white on lightning... The H.O shouldn't EVEN be involved, other than the temporary imposition on his life style.

Tis' a litiguous society in which we live...Let's SUE someone, instead of trying to resolve the issue and move on. We've got money to burn!! Don't WE??

Get over it and move on.

ME

realolman

Harold, How about this...

How about Viega takes out whatever part of your system, that would satisfy you, and replaces it with solder, at their expense.

I have a feeling you would be agreeable to that.

The expense involved would be peanuts to a company like that. Then they could test their fittings to their heart's content, even publish the results if favorable to them, and put this baby to bed once and for all.

The problem here is Viega's unwillingness to accept responsibility for their product, and expecting their customer,Harold, to fund their "testing".

Aidan (UK)

Precident

I can assure you they won't do this - it would set a legal precedent they couldn't walk away from. If you did it for cust A without testing the fittings, they could be liable to do it for cust B & C etc.

While not to his liking, they did respond to Harold - they went there, inspected the installation, and apparently saw no indication of damage/defect other than asthetics. When asked about wiping the joint clean, Harold indicated "I have left everything as it was." Why not try that? His response - "Short of cleaning them all I am not sure if this test would validly measure any continued leakage. If I had a digital camera I could take a series of pictures and see if there is expansion. But I really would prefer they stay as they are at the moment." Why do you want them to stay as they are?

Appartently, whether we agree or not, it is Viega's position, while "it is a rare occurence, this can occur in glycol based systems." If there was some phycial evidence of damage, i.e. spots /puddles on the floor, I'm sure Harold would have been referring to it in this post.

What about all the other components in the system? If, as in Hot Rods pictures, we see indications of green at the seams - do we consider the air vent, the powervent, the flanges defective too? Or do we recognize the nature of this substance and its potential for seepage and accept it for what it is.

Couldn't that be a reason Herculese chemical referenced it in their boiler sealant spec for use with glycol systems? Why does a product like this even exist?

One last point - I had a customer doing a heating line -11/2 copper. He called me - said was leaking bad and that he crimped it properly, it was his only leak on the job. I told him if wants to try to make a claim agains Viega, he has to cut out the affected fitting and send it back for inspection / testing.

I pre-judged this plumber - it was his first time using the tool. It was actually on our "free one day trial" When he brought it in the fittings, it looked like he may have started to crimp it with the wrong size jaw - 11/4. the tube was partially collapsed on the inside. I was was convinced, it was his fault.

Upon testing, we were all surprised to find the copper he crimped on wasn't L or M, it was DWV. Apparently, the plumber before him mixed some DWV in with the other M tubing. The pressing completely collapsed the tube. It certainly wasn't Viega's fault, but the plumber sure was making lots of negative noise initially. The point here - we can't legitimately condem anyone unless Viega is given the chance to see a sample of the joints.

As most others, I'm tired of this post - I think everyones points have been aired. I'm done. My chair - case closed.

Unknown

Glenn,

I`m tired of this post too as most others, ever thought of Emailing the guy?

Dave

realolman

Why no...

I haven't. I thought this was a public forum. I didn't realize I was no longer allowed to post after you grew tired of the thread. My mistake.

Unknown

realolman

It most certainly is a "public forum", but some topics after the point is made(time after time), and after awhile, end their logical request.
But if you feel something should be added,,by all means, go ahead!
Otherwise you could bookmark-it, and bring it up again later. OK?

Dave

Ken_40

I agree with Realoman

The thread will be over when Dan ends it, or when those who wish to write, stop doing so.

If anyone finds it boring, repetitious or self-serving, just stop posting, reading and commenting.

The fact that 10 different people make the similar comment(s) is neither repetitious, nor a waste of my time.

If you are displeased with the conclusions being drawn, perhaps we need more input, not less. We need to stop suggesting the free flow of comments, observations and both pro and con input is somehow "beating a dead horse." It now seems those who would curtail the thread are only those with vested interests in maintaining the status quo, not the ones who have issues and questions concerning product problems.

The ones that the manufacturer denies even exist...

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Bill Pidgeon_2

Realolman, Ken, Scott, & O2

On 10/4, Scott commented on my O2 post, and I did a search and found some information that was contrary to my speculations on O2 migration, although in no way is it conclusive.

However, because of several posts about the need to end this thread, I allowed myself to be intimidated, and I responded to Scott off-line.

I don't like lies-of-omission, but will be guilty myself, if I don't post the info. Also, Realolman & Ken make good points about this being an open forum, so here's an edited version of my 10/4/07 off-line reply to Scott:

Hello Scott,

You have some good circumstantial evidence, I can't deny that. But it is not a substitute for test data.

I was about to write that if it had a 20 year history, then Viessmann's using propress would be a lot more meaningful. But I Googled "propress history" to check my assumption that propress is less than 10 years old.

I found the following:

"History:
ProPress has been used in Europe
since the late 1980s and in the U.S. since
the late 1990s for a variety of applications."

The web address is: http://www.viega-na.com/downloads/1181923870DS-PP-0607.pdf

I've got to admit that if it is true that it's been in use for 20 years or so in Europe, on systems with iron and steel boilers, that will be convincing evidence.

Trouble is that marketing "lies of omission" necessitate very careful reading. Many will say that if it's been used in Europe since the late 80's, that's proof that ProPress is ok. They may be correct, but for me to trust that it is ok, I want to see an explicit statement that ProPress has been in use in Europe on systems with iron and steel boilers for 20 years, and those boiler companies warranty their boilers installed in ProPress fitting systems.

Feel free if you want to post this if you think it adds anything interesting, but since there seems to be a lot of sentiment to put the thread to rest, I'll refrain.

Thanks,
Bill Pidgeon

Unknown

I would like,

to take this opp to apologize to all concerned except one, about my PP comments. I have never used the stuff, hold NO stock, and thought(because the subject came-up as it has from time to time before), thought more than enough was said to its validity, or demise.
I stand corrected!

Dave