Pro Press fittings

Glenn Sossin_2

The saving is in the labor - especially if your doing 21/2 - 4" fittings. See the attachment for Marriot. I was on this job to oversee the install/training of this job with a crew of NYC union plumbers and took these pictures. They had the hang of it in no time. They couldn't believe the speed of the job. Unfortunately, NYC does not approve yet for domestic use.

Also makes for a very neat clean looking high end installation. A great product.

Derrick Ellefson

Pro Press Fittings

Any one using the Pro Press fitting or somthing like it. What are you thoughts. Is does it save that much time to make the fittings worth the price? Any thougts are appreciated

Robert O'Connor_12

Pro-Press

It's worth it. I'm finishing up a project now with zero leaks. I really couldn't tell you how many pro-press connections there are, but if I had to guess I'd say between 50 and 60 thousand. I had my doubts about this system at first, but these numbers have made me a believer. The labor savings were incredible.

Go for it!

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Robert O'Brien

I

use them on small residential jobs and the savings, freedom from leaks and the ability to make joints with water is worth it by far.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_40

The product is not without

critics. In some instances, things like reducing tees are either non-existent, or so expensive as to eliminate savings completely. The tools are not cheap, the leaks that were well documented here a few months in "Harold's Nightmare" brought forth more than a few photos of leaks and the response from PP completely inappropriate e.g., "Visible green corrosion surrounding fittings is not a leak."

Most who claim no leaks refer to after installtion and pressurization point in time. Most negative reports are from post installation inspection, after months/years of installed status.

Glycoled systems seem more prone to leakage than straight water. Thoroughly cleaned rinsed and refilled pipeworks seem to fare best.

Given our litigious society, and PP's unconscionable reply to obvious product failures, I personally will not use the product. Admittedly, I am of a small minority opnion. The evidence however of problems with the product are compelling IMO.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Perry_3

Has anyone also considered how they work and the implications...

Thanks Ken; I didn't want to be the first to mention the well documented issue of leaks.

I believe ProPresses stance can be summarized as: It dosn't leak if there is not a visable puddle of fluid on the floor...

From a plant engineers and homeowners perspective:

As a person with 30+ years experience with o-ring joints, and their problems as they age I am highly scepticale of propress and similar fittings.

They may not leak on installation; But give them a decade or two of use and i'll bet they start leaking. Not just one or two... but almost all of them.

Threaded pipe with pipe dope: Experience says good for 100 and counting, assuming the pipe does not corrode through.

Soldered copper tubing: Experience says good for at least 60 years and counting.

O-Ring joints: Industrial experience says generally good for 10 to 20 years (and a few fail earlier, and a few last longer). In fact, unless it is something that needs a little motion - or would expected to be disassembled on a routine bases o-ring joints are minimized in industrial environments due to their history of problems.

Of course, in the last case - with propress and similar fittings - the installation contractor will probably be long gone - and it will be the customers problem.

I guess it all comes down to what it is that you are selling. Of course, does the customer know what they are buying - a professional ought to be able to educate the customer about these fittings and the potential issues (and get a signed waiver if the customer really wants them).

What surprises me is if people want fairly easy to assemble, durable, and easy to repair why not just use a ferrel fittings. Industrial experience shows generally msny decades of use without general problems (mayge one here or there). Toilet tanks have used this connection for at least 40 years without any problems.

I do note that I am now seeing some valves appearing with ferrel fittings in the plumbing section of my local big box company.

I'd feel a lot better about shifting to ferrel fittings than o-ring fittings. (of course: ferrel fittings must be properely installed too... to loose and its a problem).

Perry

Rich Kontny_5

Perry

Makes great sense, as s 39 year veteran of the piping wars I look past speed to durability. While speed has converted many to Pro-Press or equals I have one major problem with the system! Take a tee of lets say 1 1/2" and insert a piece of short pipe into only one side of the tee and crimp it. Now look at the pipe after crimping. There are small flow restrictions that will cause erosion turbulence and probable leaks.

Perry's life spans seem realistic to me (other than hot water galvanized threaded pipe and fittings) As we enter
this new "Green Era" are we looking at the whole picture when we let speed trump durability???

Since engineered obsolescence is a real process,time saving processes seem to be the major factor in system choices so will the green movement suddenly step forward
and change our way of thinking to include long term durability?????

Rich Kontny

Make Peace our Passion! Support our Troops!

Steamhead (in transit)

Victalic or grooved fittings

How are grooved fittings, so beloved of sprinkler installers, holding up?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Aidan (UK)

and copper fittings?

I find it very interesting that there are so many critics of the ProPress system. As soon as there is 1 leak somewhere, they crawl out of the woodwork badmouthing the product/system.

How about copper sweat joints? For every 10,000 joints that have been soldered today, how may leaks? How many fires started? How many employees accidentally burned themselves wiping a joint? How many had the solder/flux splatter near their eye's, not wearing goggles and thought- wow I got lucky this time? How many plumbers wear goggles or protective eye wear? How many system drain downs? How many hours of productivity wasted? Do the majority of plumbing contractors guarantee their solder joints for any length of time? Didn't think so.

The preparation, time, and skill needed to solder is substantially greater than the ProPress system. When it comes to safety, there is no comparison. There's no flame, no potential to burn yourself or start a fire, no harmful fumes to breathe, no flux, and for the vast overwhelming majority of joints - no leaks. We have some customers using it (with a special O-ring) on oil tanks and steam returns.

The only leaks I've seen with ProPress are when the pipe is left dirty, the fitting has not been installed over the tube completely, or the jaw is not aligned over the crimping ridge of the fitting. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's an extremely rare occurrence.

Just consider the warranty of a ProPress joint and the non-existent warranty of a sweat joint. I believe, the majority of critics have not used it, or are old timers who do things their way. Understandable. Everyone has their opinion. This industry continues to change. ProPress is growing just like pex & radiant - it's not going away.

Yes, the tool is costly, but so is that threading machine that's in the shop or the back of the new plumbing truck. You have to have the right tools to do the right job. You build it into your cost of doing business.

We let contractors try it for free - one day - they buy the fittings, we provide a site visit/supervision to get them started. For us, 9 out of 10 contractors who try it, buy it. We recently had a contractor do a laundrymat - see photo. Said it cut his install time for the copper portion of this job from 3 days to 1 day.

Shortly you will see stainless and carbon steel press fittings. I've been told, speaking with reps, it's cheaper to make the fittings out of stainless than it is copper. What will the critics say about the life of a stainless fitting / joint? How about all those installations by the ocean/hamptons? Bet they'd be interested in the stainless fittings.

Now they have XLC for the 21/2 - 4" fittings that let you pivot the jaw 180degrees to the fitting. Gets into almost any spot - see photo.

PVC had it's critics too. Given the overwhelming success and advantages, I feel ProPress will prevail as a viable option for plumbing, hydronic heating & chiller systems.

Rich Kontny_5

Glenn

The question is about durability not about it's time saving characteristics. Soldered joints have passed the test of time, pex, propress,(God help us CPVC) and other systems have not.

I used Victaulic 30 years ago and feel it falls in the time tested category. With still systems such as fire protection systems it is not subjected to excessive or even constant flow factors.

You did not address my concerns about flow/erosion due to the irregular inside circumference after crimping.With the high cost of copper don't you think the Pro-Press is a response to the other systems?

As far as the old comment I have no problem being cautious due to experience. I would be more than happy to compare notes with you anytime and credentials!

Rich Kontny

Make Peace Your Passion! Support our Troops!

Skippy_3

Brand of fittings that I would never use again

I have been using propress for a few years now and have two crimpers. Like most contractors, I like to keep tabs on what is out there. I tried some EPC Express fittings and the words, "Total disaster" come to mind. The complete story is it did NOT go well for me. The local rep was involved and the answer from the factory was worse than "that is not a leak"! When I have the time to make a full post about the story it will be detailed. I did tell the rep to keep his eyes open for me posting about this disaster.

Glenn Sossin_2

Test of Time

Rich - I don't want to say this is factual, I heard this 2nd hand from a reliable source - I believe it is Germany, they don't teach their plumbing apprentices to solder - they teach them to press.

Virtually any product can fail given the stress of time. I think your comments about flow/erosion are absolutely valid. One would have to look closely at the application to decide how much of a factor that would be. If it was an issue, they could go to another material, or possibly increase the pipe size to minimize the effect. While I am clearly passionate about this product - I admit, it certainly has it's limitations.

I believe it has proven its durability. It is my understanding that ProPress began its widespread use on cruise ships. When they were at sea, they needed a fitting system that could be installed quickly, and handle the vibrations associated with a ship. The conventional brazed joints kept cracking - ProPress was the answer. I was on a cruise ship last year - it was there.

That job for the Marriot, - we replaced and added valves so that they could replace and isolate other leaking joints in the mechanical room. See attachment as an example. This was just one of many fittings that the joints failed on and were leaking.

I've been involved with repairs in another major hotel here on LI that was less than 20 years old - leaking joint in the lobby ceiling. Everything is subject to failure including copper joints.

I full understand and agree with your comment about experience and caution. We researched this for 4 months before we made the commitment, pex tube & fittings - 6 months. I recognize your wisdom, conservatism and experience - it comes through in your postings.

Although not a mechanic, I've done my share of installs, and been involved in this industry over 35 years. I love learning - the older guys that I used to learn from as a kid are mostly gone now and retired. Now I'm one of those older guys. Taking courses, plant tours, reading, coming to sites like this, and some hands on, this is where my knowlege & experience comes from.

I'm sure you would agree, technology, productivity, and efficiency are all moving a a much more rapid pace in the last 10 years than the prior 30 years. If a company like Ridgid and Viega are manufacturing/promoting this product, I think we can give them some credit towards the test of time.

Skippy - we also have sold the EPC fittings - like you, most of the trades have not accepted this fitting. I am very interested in your experience. Personally, I like the Viega fitting better - less likely hood of damaging the O-Ring when installing the copper even if it was filed and deburred. Look forward to your post on the subject.

Ken_40

One thing you missed...

The makers of copper solder fittings never wrote, "Green corrosion and wetness not actually puddling on the floor - is NOT a leak, therefore any implied warranty of 'fitness' is moot."

Copper sweat fittings are a commodity, as is the pipe they get soldered to. Press fittings are part of a "system" and require specialized tools, fittings and tubing that is more perfect than the actual markletplace can guarranty.

Further, if even made, what is the cost of a 1-1/4 X 3/4 X 1-1/4 reducing tee? How about a 3/4 X 1/2 X 1/2" tee? Even more impossible, a 3/4 X 1/2 X 3/4" tee

Can it be done without reducing fittings/adapters?

Nyet!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Rich L.

Pro Press

We used all pro press fittings during the complete refurbish/ renovation of a 100 + year old city owned theatre several years ago. We were told if by soldering we started a fire in the building we literally could not carry enough insurance to replace the historic community landmark. The Pro Press was cheap insurance.


On the erosion corrosion subject I have replaced many a leaking soldered joint that was not properly deburred and the resulting turbulance resulted in erosion through the pipe just past the joint. One particular 1-1/2" solder joint was installed 15 years earlier when the building was constructed and not deburred. I would think the deburring process would affect the erosion factor more than the method of joint connection, IMHO

Rich L

John_162

Ken,
3/4x3/4x1/2 is made by viega in one fitting. guess you haven't been around that long because this is a normal 3/4 x 1/2 tee nothing speical about it

John_162

Skippy unfortunately a manufacturer like Elkart (Xpress) comes out with something to compete with another manufacturer and the product is inferior and gives a black eye to everyone else

Rich Kontny_5

Certainly has it's place!

Glenn,

Don't take me too seriously I love to be the devil's advocate to get lively debate. We brought in a Pro-Press tool just this morning. Chances are we will purchase it as it proves it's worth.

I spoke with my brother who has a large mechanical firm in Florida and they now have three tools and use them as much as they are allowed by specs and authorities.

Your posts gave us a better understanding of the system and also your knowledge of it. Your right, you are passionate about this and I find nothing wrong with that either.

Thanks for your input!

Rich K.

Make Peace our Passion Support our Troops!

[Deleted User]

I live and work in the Vancouver Canada area. Propress has recently been in my area and are bringing the propress system here. I too had heard about the "o-ring" issue, and it was explained like this. The company Viega, has a 50 year warranty on their fittings. He said that it was on the fitting only, not the connection. Meaning that if the o-ring failed that would be considered part of the fitting. It was transferable from owner to owner, and it covered extra things like the flooring, paintings, computers, repair and reconstruction of the area(s) affected. I thought that was good enough for me to try out their product, and it really has made my company more efficient.

Ken_40

Sorry John,

I mis-wrote what I intended, having just edited my error(s) - please tell me if the fitting(s) re-inserted in my original post even exists.

And if so, at what price!!!!

Therein lies the "savings" mystique I could not justify from the press fittings are "better" brotherhood. Savings on labor is always stated by comparing ells sweated vs. ells pressed. Common tees (without reducing the run or branch dimensions) were (and from what I hear) and still are prohibitively expensive. Using insert fittings, increased "adapters" always competed with my desire to eliminate adaption - in light of the fact that virtually all different dimension tees and ells e.g., 3/4 X 1/2" are either absurdly expensive, or non-existent.

True, copper 3/4 X 1/2 X 1/2 fittings demand a premium, but no where near the obscene costs seen in press fittings of that ilk.

Lugging around a six pound "machine" with extension chords and dependency on outlets is problematic. Battery powered units weigh more. Compared to a 12 ounce Turbo Torch, and mobility of a B-tank that can set anywhere - especially on new construction where no power exists, level the playing field far more than the press fitting makers would suggest. But then they have to sell the product, make a killing on the fittings which, like Gillette razors, make little on the tool (razor body) and make most of it on the fittings (blades).

The cynical skeptical curmudgeon aside, I think press fittings and the horrors associated thereto is reason enough to question the system.

Although good practices mandate we always de-burr sweat coper tube and clean the male and female aspects, most don't - and "get away with it."

With press fittings, end prep is mandatory and essential. One cannot "cheat."

As many have stated, the sweat method is not infallible, but 100 years of virtually no major issues in the method is being challenged with a 10 year explosion in press technology. Yes, we all know press methods have been in place years before the last 10 - but not in any volume like now. Also true, lead and copper connections have taken place for 1,000 years, but as with pressed, nothing you could use as any sort of "empirical certitude" data until the turn of the last century...

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Perry_3

And I know several people with lifetime siding warrantees too

Of course, they were worthless, and the siding had to be replaced.

I cannot believe for one instant that Propress is going to pay for building damages and repair cost.

There exist in the archives on this site a very well documented case, complete with the Propress response letter, where Propress would not even pay to replace the fittings. Propress denies that they even leak - dispite obvous pictures to the contrary.

Perry

[Deleted User]

I would really like to see that report. I can't seem to find it anywhere. I will let you know how my inquiry about their warranty goes.

Perry_3

Ask and you shall recieve:

Please do not post more responses: Just read.

It's a long read - but well worth it.

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=40359&mc=261

My personal conclusions: If a Propress fitting seeps or weeps it is not considered a leak.... and no warranty coverage is warranted.

I do not belive there is a single Boiler or Pressure Piping Authorized Inspector who would not instantly call those things leaks - and require their repair. Of couse, home and small commercial heating systems are not held to any real code of construction that I am aware of.

Perry

Paul Fredricks_3

In this thread I see a lot of "apples and oranges" things being said. In my mind it boils down to the comparison of a properly installed Pro Press fitting vs a properly installed solder joint. Anyone can put either of them in wrong and create problems.

It would seem to me that, because it is a mechanical fitting, the Pro Press joint can't last as long as a solder joint. IMO.

Does Pro Press have a reason that their o-ring won't dry out, or wear out, in 50 years? or less?

Brownarms

Propress

I'm from the old school, and well I can't profess any knowlage of the overall longevity of the propress system; I will say this. Years of working with the various chemicals that we use daily in this buisness have left my hands in pritty poor shape. I am currently on a solder job (2" & down) and if i had my druthers, I'd be propress'n it! No cracked hands, no flux in the cracks, no constant sanding and preping. No tasting flux and copper with my lunch. I have been on enough Propress jobs to see the speed and ease that that they can go in and I aint never seen a leak that wernt workmanship of the installer. Take for what its worth, i like propress.

John_162

Yes Ken they also do exists. 3/4x1/2x1/2 even 3/4x1/2x3/4 about 10 bucks list. and it can be installed in less than a minute can you solder faster?

if there is no power on the job as you claim how do you make the holes thru the joists or studs osmosis.

BTW its not better its a better way to install.

one last thing. deburring is not just practice its in all CODES and if its not done technically the install should fail inspection

Richard Miller

Deburring? Where I live, no one even knows about it. My favorite supply house did an informal survey for a week after I challenged them to do it.

Not one single plumber that came in and was asked deburs their copper.

I have to special order in deburring tools. I thought maybe people here just used their pocket knives. Not one single plumber I have asked even does that.

BTW, get a 1 3/8" Step Bit. Perfect deburring tool for a production environment like a boiler room.

Aidan (UK)

Life span of joints

My guess is that unless it's an air charged fire sprinkler system, the O'ring is potentially exposed to water as long as the system is pressurized so drying out an o-ring wouldn't be a major concern. Consider the o-rings in a faucet - they typically see thousands of cycles of motion/friction before they may fail. The ProPress o-ring is not exposed to any such rigors. Perhaps someone from Viega will post a comment about this point.

I've seen plenty of leaks form over the years with copper fittings - been on lots of jobs where we used ProPress to repair them. My guess, in a sampling of 1000 joints 20 years from now, I would bank my money that there are substantially more leaks with conventional sweat joints, than with ProPress joints, especially where harsh environmental conditions are present.

I suppose my point is, if someone comes across a leaking solder joint that is 5 years, 10 years, 15 years old - they take it in stride, accept it as an inherent risk of the material and repair. No one makes noise about defective fittings, solder, tubing, or even a marginally skilled mechanic who may have made the joint when it leaks after such a time period. When it comes to ProPress though, a whole different standard is applied - a leak and its front page news.

There is little doubt, this product is in the gun sights of many mechanics - particularly those who view this as so easy to use - "a caveman can do it". The difference is, just like a roll-groover for using Victaulic, its not something likely to fall into the hands of a home owner.

I view ProPress as a virtually fail-safe install when time is critical and water is present. The cost factor is more than compensated for in it's speed, safety, and reliability.

EJW_3

Press

Soldering and Pro Press both have there place. I use the press more for service, but I have done new construction with it also. I have put glycol in some pressed heating systems without problems to date. For service work with wet pipe, Pro Press has no equal.

A few weeks ago I had to change a main service valve before the meter. The town could not shut off the street curb. I threaded a male x Pro adapter into a ips ball valve, with a male x hose bib in the other side of the valve. I attached a garden hose to the bib and stuck it out the cellar window, leaving the new valve open. I cut the line with 110 lbs on it(Yes I got wet), and slid the new valve on and pressed it. Try that with a B tank.

*Edit: With the price of copper, let alone Pro Press how much copper pipe do you use now anyway?

Ken_40

One small note...

One can (and as confirmed in the next post; most will not) de-burr and still install sweat tubing without compromising the joint. True, fast moving fluids will "wear" the burr - but the joint is in no way compromised. As is already well documented; NOT deburring is a fatal flaw in pressed fittings.

There's the perfect world; then, there's the real world. The pressed fitting MUST be de-burred or the o-ring is compromised. The sweat fitting need not be de-burred for joint intergity. The pressed fitting must be de-burred.

So much for the speed advantages touted. They quickly diminish in the real world. I'm sure someone will write everyone using pressed fittings always de-burr. Which is as mis-leading as the opposite suggestion that all sweat fitters never de-burr.

Coincidentally, none of the press fitting devotees will recall that when we solder a 3/4 X 1/2 X 1/2 tee in, we only heat the fitting once. With a press fitting you have to press three times.

Faster?

Pah-lease. When the real world collides with marketing we induce the S.C. (Secor Caveat): "Great marketing will overcome mediocre engineering every time; typically in a ration of 2:1

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Larsen_8

\"de burring damage\"

Ken writes;True, fast moving fluids will "wear" the burr - but the joint is in no way compromised.The joint may not be comprimised but the turbulence caused by the burr will cause wear in the pipe just downstreamof the joint, so the damage is still directly cause by the burr. A previous post is spot on. It IS code to deburr your fittings. The point is that improper installation will cause failure in any system. I can't help but wonder what the dead men thought when using copper pipe was the "new" method. I'm sure they induced the SC as well. My father's saying also comes to mind. If you don't have time to do it right...you damn sure don't have time to do it twice.

EJW_3

Press

I can press any size tee faster than you can solder it, and I dont have to wipe it off when I am done.

EJW

Harold

I note with interest the revival of the discussion of ProPress.

ProPress mean time to failure - a month or two. Rate of failure greater than 50%. No shared analysis of why it failed. Only denial of the existence of leaks. And some fairly dumb excuses.

I am not a pro. I am technically knowledgeable. Curiously, I have lived in houses which included plumbing for 65 years. My parents house will be ignored. It had a lot of galvanized pipe. All of the rest, except my current house, used copper for water. One house also used copper for all the drain side plumbing. Two hot water heating systems used copper.

In 65 years I have experienced one failure in copper piping/sweat joints. It was a hack repair of a radiant loop using a bellows like section that failed. I have personally made some of the pipe joints in the houses. Other than being a bit ugly, they all worked.

My current house - failure of ProPress - essentially immediate.

As a consumer of plumbing services I am less interested in how easy it is for the plumber than how well the finished system performs. Silly me. I do not know if ease of installation time savings are generally deducted from the final bill of ProPress systems, or simply absorbed in the profit. The "savings" may or may not be passed through to the people who actually pay for the plumbing. Perhaps you guys can clarify the shared cost issue.

If the consumer were presented with the choice of a system with negligible likelihood of leakage (solder) vs maybe saving 10% but with immediate leakage; I know how I would vote. Yes, using non-solder connections prevents burning your fingers. One assumes that you will keep anything personally important out of the ProPress jaws. On the other hand, I learned relatively early in life to keep my fingers off hot things.

I am, and continue to be, a deeply dissatisfied customer inflicted with a ProPress heating system. I am completely dissatisfied both by the product and the laughable response by the company claiming to have a 50 year warranty.

If enough people would take notice, this is a classic opportunity for yet another class action suite against a defective plumbing product.

Ken_40

That's true...

If the water's traveling at the speed of light.

Realistically, the flow in the heating system will be around 2 GPM. Hardly a concern.

With flow restrictors all over, flow rates are of little consequence.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_40

I'd love to see

a press machine deal with a buried pipe behind a group of soil and vent pipe along with a few 1/2 tees from another century.

I'd be drinking a beer inside your truck before you got done reaming and squaring the tube ends. Perhaps on new work all the added weight and muscle and removing a few seconds per joint make the press system the home run many state. If a man makes 50-bucks an hour, and each fitting is over double each in price (which is conservative) there would be no savings whatsoever. If your running straight runs of 3/4 all day; thumbs up for press fittings. But most of us are heating contractors. Not plumbers. I suspect the high praise is well founded, on two basis' If you don't know how to solder, press is the only way to go.

Secondly, if the runs are long and the fitting maizes minimal, press should have some advantage. The patterns are so much larger than wrot fittings, things look complicated rather than streamlined. I still hold the time required and the "savings" promised is NOT as frequently at parity as some suggest.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Don \"Grumpy\" Walsh

Opinions -vs- holes in the ground!

Having installed, at a minimum thousands of pro press joints and at least hundreds of Xpress joints WITHOUT one single leak, I take serious issue with your condemnation of the press technology. Because you have a leaking mess in you residence, that does not equate to an industry wide problem of defective process or product. More than likely it is installer error that is at the root of your conundrum.

Now on to this remarkable piece of logic:
"As a consumer of plumbing services I am less interested in how easy it is for the plumber than how well the finished system performs. Silly me. I do not know if ease of installation time savings are generally deducted from the final bill of ProPress systems, or simply absorbed in the profit. The "savings" may or may not be passed through to the people who actually pay for the plumbing. Perhaps you guys can clarify the shared cost issue."

Where is it written that I or any other contractor should invest tens of thousands of dollars in tools and equipment and training in an effort to reduce the labor cost of an installation, only to "pass it through to the people who actually pay for the plumbing"? I didn't invest all that cash to save YOU anything, I did it to make more money for ME! It is called making a profit. As a consumer you have every right to seek multiple quotes for your work, and to select or reject whomever you desire. If after doing due diligence your selection comes back to haunt you; please don't make accusations about a product that, as many of us can demonstrate, are at best suspect. Do you really think the Press Fitting/Tool industry has invested all those millions of dollars, just to irritate you?

Floyd_44

WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Way to go Bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't have that many joints to my credit, however the thousands that I have done, some with little or no pipe prep., thanks to a son that "knows -it-al", have given me NO trouble.
And, if Ken wants to talk about sitting in the truck waiting...on most boiler jobs I'd be in the truck waiting on his arse for DAYS!!!! Funny how he's and expert on something he's admittedly NEVER used.....

Floyd

Royboy

Harold, maybe you'd

have better results with the AmateurPress system

(just kidding!!)

Weezbo

That is why i would agree .

You speak the true. the tools also have a productive life span.

after that, like all component things they decay.

new re tooling is not going to be like "ok so you only paid 63 k FOR THE flir"

"WELL,...THAT MODEL HAS BEEN DISCONTINUED"...........

Oh NO.

At the time of replacement we will hear,

" The new one will only cost"

.... that price will likely be considerably more....well said , Grumpy.

its great we all have our own likes and dislikes and no one here is like , "let me just go along with the program" and not at least share what we think...

Leo G_101

Ahh Ken

you forgot the main reason to go to press fittings. As I get older, my hands shake more, my eyes see less, and my nose gets irritated a lot quicker now. I get my 23 year old apprentice to hoist that mighty machine, whilst I delicately hold the fitting on the tubing, and let him press away!

Truth be told, we just started using this system, and though In some cases there is no doubt a lot of labour savings (as you stated in more "clean" installs) for me the reason was that I am just getting to damn lazy to solder the beautiful joints. This system does look very good when done up on a nice backing board (hope to have a couple of photo's next week).

Funny though, in the few jobs that we have used the press fittings on, we have had to still sweat some joints, either from the lack of stock of press fittings, or as you stated, just in a weird spot where it was just easier to sweat.

How's the mountain home? Cool at night by now I bet. My wife and I just bought 20 acres in the small interior town of Princeton here in B.C. I don't think we are quite as mountanous as you, but the elevation is definately higher then Vancouver.

Leo G

heatboy

Since I don't know........

......exactly what Viega said to you word for word, what did they say after you sent back one of the fittings from your system for them to examine?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_40

Leo,

As we get older, dragging and holding up close to 10 lbs. of tool in your hand is the stuff carpel tunnel and arthur-itis aches and pains are spawned from.

It's your choice: drag a ten pound (and that's the small, so-called "light weight" Ridgid model with jaws in-place weight) tool around, or a three pound Turbo Torch.

Ten pounds vs. three.

Pick one.



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"