Pro Press fittings

Ken_40

Detracts from the debate?

Harold merely stated: "If glycol can get out, oxygen can get in."

Suggesting that statement somehow compromises the "primary issue" which is that the fittings leak, is absurd.

What Harold states is absolutely true! He does not quantify how much oxygen will enter his system, nor does he suggest O2 entry will lead to the demise of the system - as you imply.

What Harold wrote is not debateable. What you attempt to read into what he wrote is.

"If glycol can get out, oxygen can get in."

That statement alone is a fact. How you wish to construe it, is your problem, not his

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Leo

I wouldn't bet

I have never used a Pro Press so I won't even join this debate. But I once did installs and I'm sure not the fastest torch in the east. Having seen Ron Jr's install pics many times over the years and seeing the tight quarters he works in and the fact most change outs take less than a day, I would NEVER challenge him on speed and quality.

Leo

Richard Miller

No one said oxygen cannot get in. What a couple of us are saying is that the oxygen issue is a non-issue. And because of that, Harold should drop it.

Of course, to ride the hobby-horse of the oxygen issue helps your agenda that ProPress is the ultimate evil so I am not surprised that you want to hang on to it.

Richard Miller

Not questioning his quality. But I still call BS on prepping and soldering an 1 1/4" tee in 30 seconds.

Ken_40

If you don't like the message,

or the messenger, perhaps a private email would be appropos?

realolman

I didn't say it detracted from the debate. I didn't even disagree with him.

I certainly am on his side.

What I said is that it detracted from the focus on "what the product should be keeping on the inside, is on the outside"

heatboy

Nothing solved.......again.

Just another bash session.

So what have we learned with all of this bandwidth used?

We have seen there is a “leak” or “stain” or “residue” when using Viega press fittings and glycol. But that’s it. Everything else is conjecture.


Is it just Viega or do other press fittings have the same issue?

Is it the fault of the fitting, glycol, tubing, preparation or other?

Is it a continuous “leak”?



If the stain is removed does it reappear?

Is glycol used in Europe where these fittings come from? Issues there? They have been used there for 15 years or so.

Would I use Viega press with glycol?


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Bob Bona_4

I'm suprised

the intalling contractor took a powder on Harold's job. If I were using a new technology and it did not live up to standards that are acceptable, then I would be responsible for making it right. My customers are not guinea pigs. It's between myself and my supplier.

I find it unacceptable to see any weepage or staining on the outside of a joint. What's inside a pipe should stay inside a pipe. No exceptions.

Harold should not be even involved in this. The installing contractor should be replacing the affected joints on the chance it was bad pipe or a ripped/gouged O-ring and then if need be beating down the doors of the manufacturer until the problem is solved, and Harold is assured of clean, corrosion-free (leak free) joints.

Myself, I would not use the PP system, even if I were still using copper. Many years of professional car and motorcycle mechanic work, then 18 years of HVAC work, along with a great father who was a mechanical engineer, with a bunch of physics classes thrown in, tell me that you are trying to compress a material unevenly in three or more spots. Look at the inner pipe collapse points as eveidence that there is not consistent pressure applied every millimeter of the joints circumference. Now, I suppose the meat of the O-ring is designed to try to take up the points of lesser pressure, but out in the real world, we have these true facts: Pipe is dragged across floors/loading docks leaving gouges. Pipe is walked on and egged out. Pipe is even stamped (into the pipe wall) at the mills. Fittings get dropped. All these things, plus general human inconsistency errors will lead to product failure.

If a valve cover on a Honda GL1500 Gold Wing seeps oil, a mist that darkens and collects road grime, but doesn't drip, it is not a leak?

Harold

No Glenn I have not. I have left everything as it was. Short of cleaning them all I am not sure if this test would validly measure any continued leakage. If I had a digital camera I could take a series of pictures and see if thre is expansion. But I really would prefer they stay as they are at the moment.

ScottMP

Ken

YOur correct, I did post a picture of a ProPress Joint. IT was five years old and showed NO SIGN OF LEAKING.

I do not understand why you argue or attempt to muddle the debate, with comment about the tools cost, wieght and unavalabilty of fittings. I thought we were discussing leaks and the failure of the pre-joint.

I belive this: The problem is not being contained as it is being openly discussed here, in front of thousands or readers.

Ken, Where are the numerous posters with catastrophic failures of this product ? Lets see, we have Harold and then ..... hmm Harold ?? I 'll ask you again, if this was a product you had used with success would you be so quick to condeem it ?

Your comment about the o-rings exposure to the air shows a lack of knowledge of the fittings. The o-ring is "captured" in the copper joint and as far as I can see is not exposed. Am I wrong ?

How about I throw out another question ?

If Harolds entire system if failing and he refuses to cut-out the joints to be tested, then I am left witht he understanding that he is living with a heating system that constantly leaks ? And he's O.K. with that ?

Scott

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Harold

Glenn, unless we have found a new undocumented feature of a ProPress connector - if it is outside it is a leak. You seem to postulate that the "green dye stain" was not accompanied by water. If this were true, you could sell millions of these things to make filter arrays to remove chemical impurities from water. Perhaps marketed as Press-o-Filters.

Harold

Paul - no the system did not receive a chemical flush. Just water.

The water/glycol was fresh when the leaks occurred.

Harold

Bob - I would like to clarify one thing. My contractor did not "take a powder". He has spent a lot of his time trying to resolve this with Viega. He started before I brought it to his attention. All his requests for support were denied. As I have noted in another post - I do not believe it was an installation issue. Viega has stated this is the way the product works. There continues to be debate of install vs product. Viega has stated this is the way the product works. I will not hold the installers feet to the fire for this.

EJW_3

Tool Weight

The weight of the tool is not an issue for me. Have you even used one all day? Are you on lifting restrictions?

EJW

bob_50

Which will prevail

the free market or the class action lawyers?

Glenn Sossin_2

Has right to clean installation

I agree Harold has the right to expect a clean looking installation - he had no reason to expect anything else. If press fittings are prone to this type of leak/stain when Glycol is present, the manufacturers need to make sellers/installers aware of this potential - do further testing to explain it, and assure us that the integrity of the joint will not be compromised.

Trying to be objective, if I were the homeowner, I would be concerned about leaks if I were told this green stuff might form at the joints. Is there really an issue outside of glycol systems?

The ProPress joint, like Victaulic, is a system. Like any other product, there will be instances of mis-installation, and fitting failure. Is there no acceptable joint failure rate? We've all seen leaks in other products - even threaded fittings. A thread is cut too deep or too shallow and the joint leaks despite the valiant efforts of teflon tape and thread compound. Do we bash threaded joints, or accept the occasional joint failure as a cost of doing business, for what ever the cause?

It almost seems like there is no tolerance for failure in a press joint of any kind for any reason period - not very realistic in my opinion. That's why we have testing equipment and inspections. Ultimately, the free market will determine what is and isn't accepted.

I do believe based on this thread and one old one, there should be a response from Viega. I think there has been enough evidence presented to create a concern about using ProPress on glycol systems. Two questions need to be addressed - is the green stain all we are dealing with, or is their potential for something bigger? Secondly, why do these leaks/stains appear on some glycol installs and not others?

Harold

Well I actually had some leaking components that were caused by (I am told) an ongoing issue with thread tolerance with ProPress components. Yes I do believe in zero tolerances for leaks in any system I can think of. I even fix garden hoses.

Unlike the press joints, threaded leaks can be fixed. More Teflon/dope or more torque. These were all fixed by the contractor in a timely manner. I would not allow or expect anything other than the necessary repair for these leaks. I see no reason to use a different standard for supposedly leakless fittings. Leaking for something like a pipe fitting, would to my way of thinking be unfit for merchantability. It would certainly not meet the reasonable expectations of a consumer.

Major point - if ProPress leaks, it cannot be fixed - only replaced. Think about how you would go about replacing the ProPress fittings in your systems without really ugly little pieces with even more ProPress fittings or soldering with much the same little ugly pieces. If there is no room to put in multiple ProPress fittings to replace a leaking joint (even though that would look non-professional as well), what do you do? It is a nasty thing to repair in tight situations and still look like a quality install you would post on the Wall.

Given the amount of plumbing and component spacing I have in my boiler room, it would, in my opinion, require completely ripping out the wall of plumbing to fix the many joints that leak, and not cause an even uglier installation.

And it is winter again.

Unknown

\" And doing a good job of it \"

That was never mentioned . 30 seconds gets you a sweat tee that won't leak . Perfect conditions need to be in place - grit cloth or steel wool or a fitting brush , flux , solder and a working torch has to be right there . I don't want to give the impression that we pipe this fast all day , or any day . This is just a guess at how fast we CAN solder a tee , if challenged .

For the folks that have used the press tool - as a guess , how long would it take to clean , deburr and press a 1 1/4 inch tee onto 3 pipes ?

Unknown

Weight of the tool

I don't know the total weight of the press tool . I do know when the job is winding down , fatigue is a factor for me when holding the torch handle above my head for any appreciable amount of time .

I'd try the tool out to see if it would save time , but these systems are not available locally in enough supply houses yet . Does anyone know who carries any press systems on Long Island ? Is the supply of fittings readily available ?

Robert O'Brien

Ron

I use it extensively on boiler replacements and it is much faster.Probably 30-45 minutes on a 3 zone job.The real time saver as far as I'm concerned is the freedom from leaks,I seem to get one leak per 100 sweated fittings.And as you know the last thing you want is a bad sweat at the end of a long day.Or even worse,after you've left.They're always in a spot that requires the system be pumped out again,after you've purged and put pump back in truck!Tash stocks them,AF can get them within a day or two.I get most from an online supplier in Chicago

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Unknown

Robert

How exactly does it press the fitting ? Do you have to strap it onto the ring or do the jaws open enough to press ? How long does it take to press and then open back up ?

Don't mind me , I'm just set in my ways . Soldering fittings is second nature by now and it is hard to believe there might be a way to pipe a system out faster .

Robert O'Brien

The

complete press cycle takes probably 10 seconds per joint,including the release.On a 1/2 tee it would probably only save the prep time.On larger stuff the press time stays the same while the prep and soldering time increases tremendously.It is tough to get in in some spots but the ability to "work wet" more than compensates to me.The torch can be real tough up in a joist bay or close to combustibles or finished walls,Propress shines in those cases.It's not a total replacement for sweating,sometimes the torch is superior. It's probably about 80/20 propress/sweat.
Glenn from Tash offered the use of the tool for a day,give it a try and find out for yourself.

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Richard Miller

You and others keep mentioning the "ability to work wet".

I am having a hard time thinking of a scenario where the ProPress is appropriate that this is a huge advantage. I spent a significant amount of my career in service so I'm not just a new construction guy.

Give me some real life scenarios.

(For myself, sometimes I catch myself getting all excited by some cool new feature of some gizmo. But when I stop and analyze it, I realize that while it may be helpful on rare occasion, it really isn't that big of a deal. I kinda look at the above claim like that but if I am wrong would love to hear why. I ain't about bashing ProPress. The hate gets old fast. So that's not where I am coming from.)

Robert O'Brien

Sure,

Boiler replacement this past week,water main doesn't hold.Can't find curb box at all,pop a NPT ball valve with a propress male adapter on. Continue job and finish on time. Many times,even after pumping out system, water will continue to drip from the cut supplies or returns for hours.No problem with propress.Had 2 slab leaks in hydronic systems recently both at spots that had been repaired within the last 5 years.Both failed sweat joints,cut out and repaired with propress while wet.These would have to blown out with a compressor otherwise.

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EJW_3

Ugly

So if it's already ugly, what is the harm of removing some of these joints for testing? Unless they are tested you will never actually know what the real cause was. Aren't ya curious?

EJW

Harold

As an engineer, I would like to understand the problem. As the stuckee, I really don't give a rats a**; I just want what I paid for. Pipes that do not leak in any way, shape, form, or odd definition.

Let us try an example or two of my position. If you moved into your new house and the drywall was sagging because the roof was leaking. If your new refrigerator (substitute, dishwasher, range hood, etc.) had a dent or big scratch down the middle. If your new car used 2 quarts of oil per 50 miles.

Would you really care why?

Would you take care of fixing it because the manufacturer said it was normal?

Rich Kontny_5

What's on the inside?

Dan,

I distinctly remember when we used to use auto anti-freeze in systems in the early seventies. This was not the proper liquid mixture as it weeped through almost every rubber seal in the system.

Hydronic formulated anti-freeze has since entered the picture. Then Pro-Press comes along to make copper once again cost-effective. The problem it seems is that the sealing ring is not compatable with the fluid inside and is compromised to the point of leakage.

A customer who is a chemist told me during the last Pro-Press debate that the sealing material would not work with the anti-freeze solution. This is yet another trial and error exercise that will be resolved once the manufacturer realizes that what is on the inside will only stay there if the seal can be maintained.

Rich

EJW_3

If the roof had just been installed, if the dishwasher had just been installed, if the motor in the car had just been rebuilt then yes I would want to know why.

EJW

realolman

I'm with Harold... of the not giving a rat's anus persuasion, but more interested in getting what I paid for.

It's already overdue.

Harold

Perhaps I phrased it poorly. Yes I would want to know. But, first and formost, I would want it fixed. By the people that caused it; at no cost to me.

Glenn Sossin_2

extreme statements

Harold

I'll say this much - this post has made me want to advise my customers of a potential green stain at the fitting seam when glycol is used. Your references to thread tolerances is circumspect because we can't be sure the mating thread was machined properly, unless you tell us both parts were ProPres.

However, cutting out one or two fittings and splicing in a coupling or two would not make your installation turn ugly would it? And even if it did become ugly, and you truly believe this is a terrible product, why not give Viega some of these "defective fittings" and lets see what they come back with. Maybe they can tell us why some systems stain, and others don't.

I'm sure your contractor would like to get to the bottom of this issue - so would everyone who has been reading this post. So here's my contribution, I'll send you a few fittings - a coupling, male adapter, an ell - tell me what you need, provided you agree to send the cut out fittings back to Viega. Sound fair? Then we can all find out what the story really is at least from Viegas point of view.

heatboy

I'll chip in....

....$25 dollars towards the labor to actually cut the piece out. Like Glenn has said, as long as it is sent back to Viega. I want to know why this happens and I sense Viega is getting a bad rap.

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Glenn Sossin_2

thanks Heat boy

Harold

If your serious about this, accept the offers that may come in. No one on any side of this issue wants to sell, install, or purchase product that is defective, or does not meet the standards for which it was designed.

Atleast give Viega a chance to examine some of these fittings and see what feedback they provide.

Bob Bona_4

I know Harold

I recall the original post, and the contractor sounded like a upstanding guy. The best of us can unintentionally mate an out of tolerance fitting or pipe w/o realizing it.

Those joints failed. Whether due to an invisible to the naked eye defect on either the pipe or the fitting, they need to be cut apart to verify.

This is where the contractor really should come in. Ultimately, it's not your problem the fitting system that was used does not meet expectations, it is the contractor who spec'd. Unless you specifically requested this type of system, and the contractor reluctantly used it under direction? I can't remember..it's late, and it was an old thread.

I've been there with uncooperative factory support. It is maddening, and what happens is I drop that brand, and discourage anyone I come in contact with from that time on on using it. Word spreads.

What a quandry. We need to know why that joint failed. That it is a leak is not debateable in my mind.

hot_rod

If they fix it and...

it turns out after an O-ring analysis that it was and installation issue, then what?

Plenty of variables can cause an O-ring failure. I think in all fairness a third party should be allowed to forensic engineer one of them.

Here is a company that provides some data and services.

www.marcorubber.com/failures.htm

I wonder too that cleaning one of the fuzzy joints would answer some questions. Isn't it possible they seeped a wee bit until they got "wet". Maybe the seal is now complete. A good question for the folks above. Reading their data, EPDM gets along fine with glycol.

I have had a slug of name brand ball valves fail to hold a 60 psi air test lately. Once the water was introduced they sealed just fine. Even with another air test.

Harold, what exactly do you want to happen? Every joint replaced with solder fittings? Threaded fittingg? Just the seepers replaced?

To me this doesn't sound like a problem that should take a lot to resolve.

hot rod

Bruce M

Fantastic thread

Funny how a some on this site circle the wagons when a home owner points out that a certain emperor has no clothes. Why don't you all just tell the guy that its his tuff luck and get used to it? He used his money to pay for a leak free system. That is not what he got. Period. He does not care if there are 50,000 leak free pro-press systems in his area, he cares only about the one he paid for. You guys that want to keep cheapening his issue, go right ahead. ALL of his friends and family are watching this. You will never get to meet those people. They have decided that you are not on their side. Like it or not. Now some of you will be tempted to write that you didn't want those customers anyway. Good for you. Must be nice to have so much money and such a good customer base that you can afford to loose more. Harold did not get what he paid for. And that is all that matters. I can't wait to see this thread in P&M.

Richard Miller

That post, as a response to some generous offers by the professionals on this site, was totally uncalled for.

Shame on you.

Now I have a question for you? What other name did you use to post on this thread?

Glenn Sossin_2

All wet -

my purpose was to get to the bottom of the issue. Not looking for Harold's family to like ProPress or me. Not seeking anyones approval. I sell and believe in this product despite the posts here - but there was enough documentation to make me issue a advisory for any of my customers who may use this on a glycol system.

I still believe we all would like to know what Viega finds once they get to test a few of these fittings.

I agree and have stated, Harold did not get what he thought he paid for - no question. I'm not trying to cheapen his issue. I have no idea who Harold is, or his family. I want to know why this happens, what if anything can be done to prevent it, and if ProPress is a viable product for glycol based systems.

Unless Viega gets to test/examine some of these fittings, we may never know why they leaked. Assuming you are in the trade, are you not interested in getting the facts??

Harold

Glen, Heatboy - I appreciate your offer. And I can understand your desire to get an answer.

NOTE: I wrote this post after Glen and heatboy responded and then ate dinner. I checked it and posted it. In the meantime more posts had been made. I believe that the post still says what I want to say. I appreciate the support and understand much of the non-support.

But let me repeat something I have said a number of times:

VIEGA DOES NOT CARE WHY - THEY HAVE CLEARLY STATED TO MY CONTRACTOR AND I THAT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM. THE JOINTS DO NOT LEAK! GO AWAY AND STOP BOTHERING US.

They rejected the problem when presented by the contractor and again when I pressed the issue. And the response time was not professional.

There is no point to the exercise. It really does not matter if the joints have week old spaghetti sauce in them, or the pipes were run over by a truck, or the guys in China can't figure out round. They perform the way Viega claims they should.

You really need to formulate responses taking this into consideration.

In terms of cost; My contractor would have to respond to this for accuracy, but it would be a 40 or 50 mile round trip, getting the glycol out of the pipes to be cut, time to make the changes to the pipes, time and maybe materials to replace the glycol, get the air out of the system, return the parts. This is in addition to the significant time he and I have both spent "working" with Viega already. You guys in the business can derive your own cost estimates for all that.

And yes, it would be uglier. My call. I have that right.

Glenn Sossin_2

For what its worth

Harold:

I am going to question the appropriate people at Viega. I would like to know why it stains/leaks sometimes and not others. I am sorry you had to go through this ordeal, but I can't help but feel there is more to the story.

I'm don't know why, but when I linked to the old post and tried to look at the various attachments, regretfully, I could not see them.

I appreciate your time and input even if you didn't get the responses you wanted. While I still believe in and support the product, I am coming away from this post with a different attitude when glycol is involved than when it started.