Pro Press fittings

Richard Miller

It is my opinion that when a problem arises both parties have obligations. While it appears like Viega did not meet some of their obligations, your refusal to allow an in depth investigation was wrong on your part.

Right or wrong, I can almost see Viega saying, "Fine, if you won't let us test a fitting then our position is that this is normal".

Harold, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I do not use any Viega products, nor am I comfortable using ProPress type fittings. But I have to be honest with you, you do not come across as being a reasonable, responsible customer who is willing to cooperate to find a solution. You appear to be more interested in bashing Viega and complaining than finding a solution. Unfortunately, you have enablers within the trade who seize upon your story to advance their own agendas. (In other words, they are just using your problems for their own cause, rather than trying to truly help you.)

Speaking strictly for myself, unless you are willing to cooperate in finding the cause and a solution, then I am tired of hearing about this from you. Either cooperate in working towards a solution or let it rest.

Note: I am not defending Viega. I am strictly speaking about your part.

John_162

A Person of reason (Richard. I couldn't have said it any better.

Floyd_44

Wow....

Finally a voice of reason...

Floyd_44

Local Hospital calls me up....

2" di-electric fittings leaking a a heat run, need to cut he coopper and replace the fittings... took them longer to get the water shut off and drained then to cut out the fittings and crimp in new ones, had to cut out back past two 45's on each line because of prior piping..soldered in the stubs to the di-electrics while maint. was draining...then crimped in the 45's while water was still dripping.
About a year ago I replaced the water meter in the same hospital, water main was running a stream of water size of a pencil...crimped in new meter, bypass valve, and backcheck in less than 2 hours... took longer to drain down and refill.
Would have been virtually impossible to accomplish that job with a torch, in the wet basement floor standing on my head under the stairs.... any questions????
This tool is definitely one of the best investments I have made, hands down...well, next to the Upsy-Dazey....

Floyd

S Davis

Viega

I just want to point out Viega said this leak issue was normal and they did not bring up cutting out any of the fittings untill I stared making a stink about it, this was months into this ordeal.



S Davis

DanHolohan

Seems to me

that this settles it. The glycol can leave through the fittings. The manufacturer knows this and accepts it as normal. Case closed.

The rest is up to the contractors and their customers. Use the product or don't use the product, knowing that this is what happens with glycol.

Thanks for the interesting discussion, and for keeping it (mostly) civil.

Dave_4

ProPress ****

I am the end user, there is absolutely nothing in using Propress for the end user. Nothing. I am building 750k home, I don't need, want to have anything to do with Propress. Why should I? because it increases the Plumber's profit. No just charge me an extra 10% or whatever and sweat the time proved solder joint system. I don't need to be a Guinea pig. My plumber was using propress, it had leaks, he couldn't find them, I asked him to pull the stuff out and change to sweat he did. He swore by propress, but worked about 3 days, 3 to 4men to cut out the propress and sweat in fittings. I'm not really pleased with all the splices but i was not pleased and was ready to call the plumbing inspector to point out this garbage called Propress. Propress might work under ideal conditions (Lab conditions), but in the real world,(on the site) there are to many thing that will affect the finsih product.

Harold

Thank you Dan for the summation. I agree. And I am not particularly excited by continuing this either. I probably should not have made my first post. I did not think this would go on again.

This is pretty much flogging a dead horse.

Thanks everyone for you contribution; including the unhappy campers. That is the great thing about sites like this. Lots of peoples thoughts, and we are all free to express our views.

scott markle_2

not dead yet

Harold,

I assume that based on your convictions about this you will be seeking compensation through litigation.

The horse is not really dead until your case is settled.

I can see the danger for Viega if this is acknowledged as a defect. If your case goes favorably others might seek compensation for something they would otherwise tolerate.

My only concern is that Viega might be reluctant to diligently research this, at the advice of lawyers who's make careers of deflecting responsibility.

Unfortunately the horse is not dead. Nowhere in the published literature for this product was anything stated about the potential effects of glycol.

One of the features of this product is the very pleasing appearance of the work. The fittings are impressive articles of metallurgical manufacturing. The softer bends and clean connections look fantastic, perhaps some of you skilled craftsman who deride this product are a bit threatened by the appearance of such nice looking work, accomplished without a torch.

The previous photos I posted don't concern me that much, (funky basement),However I have other jobs (with glycol)not yet showing this, where aesthetics are much more important, and my client will surly notice and be upset by such stains if and when they appear.

Not dead until Viega shows due diligence in examining the factors which can effect this. I don't buy the expansion stress explanation, My stained fittings were in a constant circ. full reset application,... hardly a demanding thermal stress environment.

Why some systems and not others? Viega.. take samples, and issue recommendations. I have some excellent examples and would be willing to cut them out. I will accept the generous offers that others have made to help pay for this.

I leave it to Viega... are you listening?


Viega.. are those lawyers really giving you the best advice? Trust and confidence is essential to the widest adoption of your product. Perhaps that confidence is best maintained by an open dialog and examination of this issue, even if the result of that was some form of compensation for those who's expectations of the product was not fulfilled.

The damage done to this product every time someone innocently posts a question about it here, will likely continue until Viega demonstrates a better response to concerns.

Paul Pollets

I'd agree....

I've used the Pro-Press fittings and various squeeze tools (REMS and Viega) for over 3 years. We converted our sweat fitting inventory over the past few years and 98% of every copper fitting, or PEX connection is squeezed. We've never had a leak, nor after yearly service have observed leakage in any of the piping systems, including 3 glycol/snowmelt applications. My personal opinion is that Viega has not done such a good job in handling this claim.

I kinow the mechanic who did Harold's job. He's one of the better radiant specialists in the Puget Sound, and has significant experience.

Presstools and the method of crimped fittings don't seem to be a liability elsewhere. (except perhaps Las Vegas and issues regarding aggressive water reaction with certain connectors)

I'm slightly amused by the arguments against this technology. Particularly the weight of the tool. Ken kills me. BTW, what's a pipe wrench weigh??? I will say that I've seen a 30%+ labor savings and NO LEAKS!! Not to mention, fires, flux debris, etc.

That's worth alot.

I'd be asking for a forensic analysis of a few fittings. Pacific Testing Labs in Seattle does this kind of work. Otherwise, the truth will not be known for Harold's particular problems.





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ScottMP

Dear ****

"My plumber was using propress, it had leaks, he couldn't find them,"

Could you explain what that statements means ?? It had leaks and your plumber could'nt find them ? Why is it Garbage ? I am my company have used Pro-Press for about five years now. I am concerned with the glycol issue and want to get to the bottom of it. The statement above borders on slander.

If I or my company installed a product that leaked , I WOULD REPLACE THEM. I would be the one to contact the company and do the replacing , hiring lawyers doing what ever had to be done. Everyone who knows the installer speaks very highly of him but why is the owner involved here. The comments about wieght of the tool and cost of fittings have Nothing to do with the problem.

Scott



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Ed_50

Even a Cave Man Can Do It

What is a Leak? Google it, it's so easy even you can do it. Just in case you have trouble here is a link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leak . Harold I wish I had seen your post 6 months ago, I would have stopped my plumber in his tracks when he started using propress. I didn't know Propress even existed and if the plumber told me he was going to use Propress, I would have never allowed it. I would have 1. give me a price for sweating 2. got another plumber who uses solder. Conclusion; Propress is not an option for me. Why would any home owner want to try something else? A Propress system that isn't even going to save any appreciable amount of money. Why deviate from sweated copper fitting, that has proven it's self for over 60 years. Not me, No ProPress, you can keep it.
btw, a leak here in NJ is; 100psi of air with no more than a 5psi loss in a 48 hour period. but Propress did not exist when that spec was established.

hvacfreak

I would love to see...

I would love to see the expression of the original poster ( the guy who started the thread )....LOL. Kinda like stepping on the wrong walk paver in " The Temple of Doom " .

Ed_50

Don't tell me about slander, while being pretentious about it.
"Dear ****" No your attitude ****. email me and I will give you the long drawn out story but please don't give me you snotty attitude. I personally don't care about weight of any tool, cost of any fittings, I do care about price and workmanship and being comfortable about the work being done. The Plumber had sort of a bad thing going for him in that I am not a GC who is also trying to make a profit and just want the job done and get paid and move on to the next job, I am a home owner having a house built. and it better be done right, cause i going to be living there.

Glenn Sossin_2

nonsense

I think there is a lot of crap starting to fly around here. So much so, that you can't take anything posted lately at face value. It started out as a legitimate question about the product and has mushroomed into mud slinging. I'm starting to question the validity of some of these comments, the motives behind them, and the actual person(s) posting.

If someone buys a defective TV from Sony, are all Sony products crap? Of course not. If someone buys a BMW and has all sorts of warranty issues, does BMW produce garbage cars, I don't think so. Do we stop buying a "brand name product" if it has a recall ???

Every manufacturer can turn out a defective part/component including the likes of Kohler, Grohe, and WeilMcClain - three of the biggest names in our industry. Should we drag them through the mud too??

Personally, I find a large, impressive, successful track record for ProPress, and positive experiences both personally and from my customers. It's hard to accept some of these comments as a legitimate indictment of the ProPress system. I don't question the green stain - Viega has acknowledged the potential of such an occurrence.

What should be happening here is an honest discussion of the problem, some insight to the conditions that created it, in an effort to learn from it, and potentially avoid and/or correct it.

I have sent off a few questions to Viega, earlier today. I expect some kind of answer tomorrow.

Based on asking around, I have been able to determine that glycol leaks (stains at joint surface) are not uncommon with other types of connections - valve packing nuts, gaskets on valves, threaded joints, etc. It was also suggested that adding a small amount (capfull or so) of boiler seal to the glycol mixture is likely to prevent the seepage that creates the stain.

As Scott has implied, hopefully Viega will recognize the need to respond in some manner to all of this.

DanHolohan

Here's a point I think the pros may be missing,

and one that a few of the homeowners are bringing up. What advantage does the product offer the homeowner? Most of the pros are talking about how good they think this product is for themselves - how easy it is to use, how much time it saves them, how it helps them make more money.

But what's in it for the homeowner? What advantages does it have over soldered joints for them?

If the homeowners are reading about potential problems, and if the manufacturer is acknowledging that there is a problem with glycol, then the homeowners are probably going to object to the product, and that's what we're seeing here.

I'm not sure if you folks realize how many people are reading this site every day, especially at this time of the year. A tiny percentage of visitors post, but so many read. And all of these comments go into the archives, and they're forever as close as the Search button.

What's in it for the homeowner?

EJW_3

Floyd

I totally agree as I have both also. Is your pump machine a Pul-A-Pump?

EJW

hot_rod

glycol \"fuzz\"

is a common sighting on many systems. If not most that have glycol. Same with solar.

I wonder that glycol is even required in Harold's system judging from his address. If it is only for some snowmelt, isolate it and get the glycol out of most if not all the Press fittings.

I don't remember using glycol back in the good old days. My dad installed HWbb systems in Buffalo NY. Doesn't get a lot colder then that. I don't remember glycol in boilers.

hot rod

Glenn Sossin_2

missed point

Dan it pains me to disagree with you, but..
I believe it is exactly that - a missed point. In most cases, there is nothing specifically in it for the homeowner - other than maybe a lower priced job, neater looking*, and much faster installation.

The plumber who bought the tool didn't do it because he was trying to make more profit at the homeowners expense as alleged earlier. That tool cost around $2500 +. The fittings cost 2-3 times that of conventional copper fittings. He chose to use that tool/system because he felt he could do the job faster, safer, with no smoke, no fumes, no burn marks, no mess of dripped solder/flux, and more reliably than the conventional methods of hard piping with copper or steel at a lower end cost. That's whats in in for the homeowner.

It's no different than the plumbers decision to use pex tube and fittings. My guess, that choice wasn't made on the customers behalf - it was made with the same type of economical factors - speed, saftey, lower material costs - resulting in a lower bid price. Most times, the plumber wants to be competitive. Those that have the tool will use it to their advantage in bidding - especially here in NY where labor costs are so high.

Of course, there are some of the more established plumbers who rely on their reputation, quality of workmanship, and referrals - they don't even have to advertise. They may win a job regardless of their price. Their jobs are done almost as a piece of artwork - I applaud them.

I have one customer who is booked out for almost 2 years - does residential work. He has several ProPress tools for his crew. He's even pressing 11/4" pex now. He has been using it for 2-3 years and never once, did I hear anything negative from him. That picture I posted earlier of the boiler room with the tile floor , the 2 Buderus boilers, the turbomax, 2 - 120 gal storage tanks, and no burn marks from a torch, - that was his job. A plumber who truly takes pride in his work.

* Clearly, there is a potential issue for ProPress in glycol based systems. The green glycol stain appears to be primarily an aesthetic issue though. Viega acknowledges this and explained why it happens (in posted letter).

Last point, if we go down in the basement or crawl space, and inspect the boiler system, don't we see a few rusty, crusty & green pipe joints - oxidizing copper?? ... maybe a crusty looking spot or two on the floor where a drip once lived above - ... along with a few spiders? Yes, Harold had a right to expect something different, I agree with that, but the turn this post has taken recently is excessively negative, borders on a witch hunt, and in my opinion - paints the wrong picture for the product.

My questions are - Can the stain be prevented? How? Why does it appear on some systems and not others? Does the capfull of boiler sealant really minimize the potential for staining? If when the stain appears, and it is wiped clean, does it reappear?

Derrick Ellefson

Why I asked

I saw it a way to lower labor cost. In my market its hard to hire a guy for $12.00hr and expect him to correctly pipe a boiler room let alone have quility sweat joints. I may have saw it has getting an edge on the compitition. What that means to the end user, Lower instalation cost. I dont think that the older wet heads wanted the copper they installed in floors fail in 20-30 years but I think they also wanted an edge on the competition. I have to think if Im going to make the full blown change but if I can go from piping a boiler room by 24 hr its worth a serious look.

Glenn Sossin_2

Pictures are worth 1,000 words

Hot Rod,

your pictures support the comments that I just posted. You are reputable, experienced, an industry authority, with lots of contacts across the country - have you heard of using a capfull of boiler seal ?? Do you think it would work?


PS I wasn't schmoozing you to get a favorable answer - I believe you will call it as you see it.

hot_rod

a capful? Hmmmmm

doesn't sound like enough to do much, but who knows. It would need to be compatiable with the glycol of course. I have had limited sucess with leak stop over the years. I did seal a couple with that creamy Fernox stuff Heatway once sold. It seemed to fix the early barbed hose fitting seeps so who knows.

Glycol has one and only one strong point in my opinion. It SOMETIMES prevents frozen pipes!

Other then that it does bring some baggage.

Price, mess, maintenance, custom fill systems, blend water tolerance (lack of , smell, reduced heat exchange, higher pump head requirements, flamable under certain conditions, may not be compatiable with all metals, lack of installer familiarity,. I could go on but you get my point. Use it only when absolutly required, as I've mentioned before.

hot rod

Steve Ebels_3

I went back and checked 3 glycol jobs

The resurrection of this issue compelled me to go back and visit some jobs we did with ProPress and glycol. Since last Thursday I have looked at 3 such jobs ranging in age from 2-3 years. I found one out of the three that had green on about 30% of the fittings. It was a small radiant floor job that was done in the early winter of 2004. This particular job is the only one that used a cast iron boiler. The glycol percentage was 30% when commissioned as were the other two also. Both of the other jobs were stainless boilers by different manufacturers.

Our standard procedure is to connect the feed water line to a "pig" filled with the same mix of glycol as the system. We install a pressure gauge between the "pig" and the pressure reducing valve to monitor the amount of antifreeze available to the system. These are all filled to 50PSI after the system is purged and commissioned.

Sooooooo. I'm stumped. The system with the creeping crud on the fittings is losing fluid, right? Not according to the pressure gauge. It's still reading between 48 and 50PSI. If the stuff inside is getting outside there should be a corresponding drop in pressure. I saw no sign that there was ever as much as a single drop on the floor underneath the green fittings. This is going into its 4th winter.

Is it ugly? You betcha! I don't like my jobs to look like that. Is it leaking?.......There's inside stuff on the outside but in such a small amount over three years that our feed tank didn't even show a pressure drop. Brings me back to defining the word leak.

That's a head scratcher to me.

Leo G_101

For me Dan

it was a personnal decision. I like the look of the finished product. I like the sweep of the bends, the cleanliness, etc. I just find it to be more appealing to the eye.


It took about 8 years though, before I could convince myself that the cost (of tool and fittings) was worth my vanity.

As for saving money, I am not sure about it being that much faster, though most who have had the tool for a while do seem to think that it is faster.

I did not buy into the Propress programme to make more money per job, but instead to make my job's look even better, thus hopefully gain my company more high end jobs!
and further my reputation.

It's all about vanity for me Dan!


Leo G

ScottMP

Dan

I agree with Glenn. I didn’t buy the tool to take advantage of my customers. I did because I felt I could provide my customers with the same quality of work that I always do and be more competitive. When someone says the product I am using in my customers home is garbage, yea that gets my hackles up. Dan you've seen my work, I don't do garbage and I take Great Pride in what I do. You also know what kind of person I am and that I understand that we are on a public site.

If there is a problem with a product that I install in my customers home, I want to know what and why. I don't want opinions and guessing. That’s all. When some of the best installers in the country, people I have Great respect for, also use this product, I have to wonder how quickly I am jumping ship.

That’s all.

I don't want to be attacking people or sound pretentious. Some of these comments question my business practice and it’s tough not to try to defend those decisions.

Scott


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ScottMP

Ed

Please acept my appoligise. This post questions a product that many proffesionals use and I belive it questions our business practice. I take great pride in my business and its difficult not defend it. Many people come to this site, make a comment with no name and then leave. I should have thought a little more before typing.

I would like to hear about your problems. Your comments where confusing to me. I am a master plumber and the comment that there where leaks and the plumber could'nt find them where strange to me.

Please understand that I consider the work I do to be of a high quality and when some comments that the product I put in my customers home is garbage .... well, its tough not say something.

Please tell us the problems you had.

Scott



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hot_rod

To me it's like the O2 thru pex wall

concept. We know and understand it happens. We have all seen the results of O2 ingress on non barrier tube systems, yet it's hard to catch it in the act

hot rod

Glenn Sossin_2

Got a phone call from Viega representative

I just received a phone call from my contact at Viega. They supposedly will be responding to questions that I posted on their site sometime tomorrow. I will pass on what they say.

Ken_40

That's the exact same thing...

they told Harold. Verbatum!

Two plus months later, they told him it was not a leak, therefore not an issue.

Which in many ways, why this thread became what it has.

Long and troubling. I urge you not to hold your breath.

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[Deleted User]

This post is getting weird. Now we're talking about adding 'leak stop' to the system? I don't know about any of you, but I happen to like the look of a neatly soldered joint. Take some steel wool or scotch brite to it to clean it up a bit. The one thing I have noticed about the pro-press and maybe it's just me- the pipe sometimes gets pulled to one side of the fitting and it becomes crooked. I'm no pro-press master and have only used it a couple of times. As far as a benefit to the homeowner- I think it makes a good, quick repair.

Unknown

Oh man,

GIVE IT A REST,,has`nt everyone beaten this into the ground enough?

Dave

Rich Kontny_5

This is no longer a thread!

Gentlemen,

This is no longer a thread it has become a spool. It should have ended with Dan's summary!

Short of legal action this will not get resolved. The only way to get positive results for this homeowner is through the legal system which becomes costly for all parties.Unfortunately everything else is simply opinions both pro and con.

If Viega and their Pro-Press system want this type of scrutiny that has already caused ill will then so be it. I for one will not use Pro-Press in systems with glycol.

They have admitted the leak no matter how they have tried to walk around it.

I am moving on! Case closed!

Rich K.

Bill Pidgeon_2

Richard Miller \"the oxygen issue is a non-issue\"

This is an issue I've brought up on this site at least two or three times before, but never received an answer. But your statement about O2 being a non-issue makes it sound like you may have an answer. Sorry to resurrect this so late in the thread, but I was unaware of the thread until yesterday, and I was going to stay out of it, but...

On page 104 of Siegenthaler's "Modern Hydronic Heating...2nd Edition" he states the following:

"Anytime oxygen enters a hydronic system containing iron or steel components, there is the potential for corrosion. It is therefore important to minimize or eliminate its entry in systems containing iron or steel components."

Further down the page, Siegenthaler says: "The standard recognized worldwide for oxygen diffusion protection in hydronic heating systems is DIN 4726. This standard allows a maximum oxygen diffusion rate of 0.1 milligrams per liter of tubing water content per day."

So, your declaration that O2 is a non-issue for ProPress fittings suggests that you know how much O2 diffuses per o-ring of each size, or something like that.

But, since I've asked before, if anyone knew of any test data for the O2 migration rate for ProPress fittings, and never received a response, I'll be surprised if you or anyone else responds with actual test data.

As a homeowner, I'll pose the rhetorical question: Why would I ever allow ProPress fittings in my heating system if no one can tell me how much oxygen migrates in from each fitting?"

But maybe you'll surprise me Rich.

Bill Pidgeon

Dave_4

Pretty much every single heating system out there already has rubber gaskets in the system.

Some boilers even use rubber gaskets to join the sections together.

But like with ProPress fittings, the surface area is so minuscule it becomes a non-issue.

I don't have a lot of technical data on the issue. I don't need it. All I need is a bit of common sense.

PS. I hope that "gotcha" tone I saw in your post was my imagination. -wink

Bill Pidgeon_2

Rich

Sorry about the gotcha tone, but I do find the lack of information, and the complacency frustrating. If I understand you correctly, you are saying the oxygen diffuses thru the o-ring, and the total cross section is small so not much O2 diffusion.

I see your point, but I look at the circumference of the pipe, and my assumption is that most of the O2 is migrating between the o-ring and the pipe rather than through the o-ring. No one ever reported glycol leaking thru pex (as far as I know), probably because the glycol molecules are so big compared to the "micro-holes" in pex. But if glycol can get by the o-ring, O2 should able to "pour" past each o-ring.

After I read your response, I decided to look into how long DIN 4726 has been in place and I Googled it and found the following statement:

"For a typical system with plastic tubing working at 100° F continuously, this oxygen diffusion leads to the generation of about 1 oz. corrosion products (MagnetiteFe3O4) per 100 ft. of pipe each year (10 times more for EPDM rubber hoses).

Here's the web address: http://www.systecoreinc.com/microbubble.html

The website said in so many words that Viessmann went public with boiler problems caused by pex tubing in 1979, but DIN 4726 wasn't finalized until 1987.

So, two conclusions come to mind: 1. It's too early to tell whether your speculation or my speculation will be correct. I would think that if your assumption is correct, Viega would publicize the favorable test data. Instead, there appears to be no test data, it still begs the question: Why should we homeowners take the risk?

2. I'll bet the boiler companies don't use EPDM gaskets between boiler sections if that web site is correct about 10 times the O2 migrating through EPDM, which Viega uses for ProPress o-rings.

Thanks for the response.

Bill Pidgeon

scott markle_2

O2

Bill, it's interesting that Viessmann was involved in developing standards for O2 migration.

Have you ever visited the Rhode Island training facility?
The working boilers are all plumbed in Propress.

I would guess that if Viessman had the foresight to anticipate these issues in 1979 they did some homework before choosing this fitting system for a demonstration facility.

ScottMP

Ed ??

What about you problems ??

What were the leaks and how did you find them ?

Scott

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Glenn Sossin_2

Conversation with Viega

I recognize we are all tired of this post, but I did speak to a quality assurance manager from Viega at length this afternoon. Here is a simple recap of the key points.

I expressed my strong disappointment that there was no timely response from Viega. I was told, it is now corporate policy to not respond in any way to blogs , bulletin boards, or any other public forum. However, they would respond to requests via phone or email, to specific situations / installations – not generalities. Suffice it to say, there were several reasons, - legal was among them.

I asked about glycol leaks specifically – why did some systems leak and not others. Response – without seeing the fittings, it’s too speculative to say. He gave me the analogy of a car engine running rough and trying to diagnose the problem accurately without benefit of conducting tests on the car, or trying to diagnose a person’s illness simply on the symptoms without the benefit of blood work and other testing. Viega will test any fittings returned and issue a report of the findings accordingly as we have seen earlier in this post.

What causes the leak in some situations versus others? We started to discuss the different installation factors that could come into play. For example the tube and where it came from. I’m sure we have all had the experience where we couldn’t get the fitting over the tube – had to beat it in – or the opposite – it was a sloppy fit. There could be dirt on the rings because the fittings were lying around open – not in the sealed bag. The tube could be out of round. Recently, I had a customer try to return approx 50 ProPress fittings that were lying around loose in the back of a mechanics truck. I wouldn’t take them back. We know what things look like when they lay around in the back of the truck. I wasn’t going to put someone else’s installation at risk – that’s not the way I sold it.

I asked about the use of boiler sealant as an additive to glycol systems to prevent the leak/stain. He was aware of this practice. They learned of it from a heating contractor upstate NY who does this regularly with success. I then asked for more information about quantity per gallon – he instructed me to refer to the manufacturer of the sealant for that type of information. He referenced Herculese as an example.

I went to the Herculese web site, and pulled the following line from the Boiler Liquid product specs - "Compatible with Hercules cryo-tek or other types of propylene glycol-based anti-freeze products, chemical additives and boiler treatment compounds." He pointed out that glycol can get appear in places that water can’t – just like air. Got the boilerplate explanation of how the molecules are have less cohesive characteristics – slippery , how the green stain permeates other products as well – as supported by Hot Rods pictures. Then he asked me - Do I consider those other products as defective? Hmmmmm I asked him if you wipe a joint clean, is it likely to re-appear – I believe he said no it won’t.

I told him I was advising my customers of the potential green stain on ProPress glycol systems and assigned a 30% probability to that occurrence. I told him I thought Viega should put something about this in their literature or FAQ section. He got very upset and started to question me on how many jobs I had seen or were aware of with these leaks/stains. On what basis was I drawing that conclusion? I told him I was personally aware of none, however, using Steve Ebels post, this seemed to be a reasonable conclusion - “I found one out of the three that had green on about 30% of the fittings.” While he couldn’t tell me the exact number of complaints on an annual basis involving glycol(corporate policy), he did say the occurrence was so rare – that they handle it on a case by case basis – test the fittings, and issue a report.

I then asked, if you know it can happen, have you done any testing to try to determine what causes some systems to form the stain and not others. He said they do tests on a regular basis – they have seen the stain occur but they were unable to duplicate its occurrence with enough frequency to draw any conclusions – again “an extremely rare occurrence”. Again, I tried to pin him down on an annual figure – how many complaints– I threw out a few numbers at him – tried to gauge his reaction. My conclusion from this part of the conversation -it would appear a kindergartner could count higher than the number of glycol issues he has dealt with this past year. Are we really dealing with a handful of occurrences each year ??

As far as integrity of the ProPress system overall, I have been in email contact with two homeowners who are watching this post. Not naming names, but this is a partial post from one person that I thought was insightful. ” I did find Viega installation procedures. My Plumber was not following them. I had a talk with him and allowed him to continue using PP.” another comment - “upon closer inspection by me a few (very few) fittings that were marked, about 3 or 4 did pull a part slightly, up to about 3/16ths of an inch.

From my perspective, to his credit - this individual is acknowledging the plumber was not following the proper procedures for installation of the product yet, he allowed him to continue. He also states he noticed some of the fittings were pulled out past the markings assuming they were made properly to begin with. I responded it only takes 1 leak to bring the system down.

It would seem to me, this was a novice installer, not properly trained. The whole job was ripped out and sweat joints installed. I’m sure the next job that plumber does using ProPress, he will pay a lot more attention to the instructions.

One of his complaints, as Dan pointed out, he wasn't given the option of deciding which method of piping was being used.

Draw what conclusions you will - that’s a synopsis of the conversation. I’m sure some people will say I’m biased – I truly tried to be objective on all fronts.

DanHolohan

Good report, Glenn.

Thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

Just curious, did the Viega person you spoke with know you would be sharing this here?

Glenn Sossin_2

info

Yes he did. There were a couple of points we discussed which I couldn't post because of legal and Viega policy issues. I think he felt the need to "set me straight" about the frequency of this kind of occurrence.

Another Viega person I spoke with, again stated a lot of this has to do with being attacked on a public forum - I surmise by homeowners looking for something. There was concern about statements being taken out of context. While I was not privy to anything specific, I believe legal issues were involved so they simply avoid any generalized public response whether favorable or not.

Heres another comment from the same homeowner - "I want to ask Viega basically, Are they "Product Instructions" or recommendations? Because no where on the instructions does it say recommendations."

I responded by saying based on the context of the original question, I would consider them to be the same. I'm not sure why it would matter what you called the information provided - that is unless someone is trying to hang something on somebody maybe??

Thanks Dan