Pro Press fittings

Ken_40

Even more amusing...

Your email address.

Afraid of spammers?

It's okay. You can come out now. It's safe.

I think...

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scott markle_2

leeks

Harold, molecular level glycol seepage may be creating some unattractive stains at your fittings,but to characterize this as a total failure is overstating things.

I am concerned about this too, It surfaced in a job that I did with glycol. I also used a corrosion inhibitor (nitrite?). I have been asking around and nobody has seen this problem except me. I have been teased by pros for my thorough cleaning and deburing,I don't remember any requirement for cleaning in the viega literature but I scoth brite rubbed my pipe anyway.

For those who blame the installer,these stains from glycol have nothing to do with the installer.

My problem is this, while I have noticed this, the homeowner has not (or at least is not troubled by it). Is it my responsibility to bring this to their attention? Is it really a problem in a dusty basement?

I have flushed the system and I'm now using a high quality glycol (rohgard). There is no actual liquid leaking.

Should I address this and potentially effect my clients confidence and probably not get anywhere with Viega?

Here are some photos

ScottMP

I also

would like to here the results from the testing of these "failed" fittings. Its impossible to know what has happened untill testing is done.

Untill then its all speculation.

Scott

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Harold

I think everything you want to know is in that long post.

No fitting was ever tested. Viega wanted my heating contractor to come over and cut pieces out of my system. They would not pay for removal, repair, or replacement of antifreeze. I said no. They eventually sent people to my house to look at them.

I believe that the Viega documentation said no pipe prep was necessary.

Regarding my comment about profit; obviously you get to decide on your own methodology for pricing. My point was that if I had a choice at one price point that would not leak and a choice at a lower cost that would leak, I would pick not leaking.

I personally (my opinion, no data) believe it was not the installer's fault. He has performed his tasks with professionalism and care. Perhaps it is the pipe. Perhaps not.

Ken_40

Despite the photos showing...

obvious leaks, "no one else has ever had the problem." A few claim to have installed over a thousand - and never saw a leaker...

Despite the photo(s), the well documented thread of six months ago, the numerous other photos showing leaks on numerous jobs, the copy of the letter from Viega stating "these are not leaks," despite all the sobering evidence and commentary to the contrary, this is not a product problem; it is much faster than soldering and the fittings are only three times as expensive as sweat and I will continue to deny reality until my doctor makes be switch meds, or the inevitable class action lawsuit comes full circle, the only explanation must be: "Great Marketing will....."







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ScottMP

No Its not Harold

What I wanted to know was how those fittings failed and the only way to tell is to cut one of them open. That was'nt done so all we are left with is speculation.

What we need is physical proof.

Scott

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[Deleted User]

I'm not anti-propress or pro-propress, but how do you know if all of the fittings that some of the over 10,000 group has done are really not leaking? Who goes back to every job to check all the fittings? How about the one's in the walls? I know that small leaks could easily get passed over by a customer not looking for them. I guess it comes down to how you define a leak. Is it a drip, a gush, or a slight ooze? How about the press fittings for gas?

Rich Kontny_5

Panama Red??

What the hell was that all about Weezbo? Not much without translation!

Rich K.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Rich Kontny_5

Improper application

> I think everything you want to know is in that

> long post.

>

> No fitting was ever tested. Viega

> wanted my heating contractor to come over and cut

> pieces out of my system. They would not pay for

> removal, repair, or replacement of antifreeze. I

> said no. They eventually sent people to my house

> to look at them.

>

> I believe that the Viega

> documentation said no pipe prep was

> necessary.

>

> Regarding my comment about profit;

> obviously you get to decide on your own

> methodology for pricing. My point was that if I

> had a choice at one price point that would not

> leak and a choice at a lower cost that would

> leak, I would pick not leaking.

>

> I personally

> (my opinion, no data) believe it was not the

> installer's fault. He has performed his tasks

> with professionalism and care. Perhaps it is the

> pipe. Perhaps not.



Harold,

When we had this discussion a while back I spoke to a chemist who assured me that your type of leaks were due to the use of improper gaskets to contain glycol. Just as drivers are informed not to take blame after an accident so Viega and Pro-Press have responded to avoid liability until further and possibly no review.

Your generalizations quite frankly are offensive and in- accurate. If you are done venting perhaps you can start to think properly! What does the profit statement have to do with this? Have you participated in order to completely bad mouth Viega and Pro-Press for all applications??? 30 years ago before proper formulated hydronicanti-freeze was put on the market many soldered systems failed (using improper auto type glycol/water mixtures.

It would take out the rubber components of valves, zone valves, pump seals etc. So in conclusion it is not the system it is the sealing rubber component that is not compatable with glycol!!! Your long winded condemnation never got around to this so I thought I would help you out.

Did you know that urine mixed with water will take out soldered DWV copper due to the wrong application!

Now I normally don't get this fired up with lay people, however your post(s) pushed alot of buttons.

Best of luck with your efforts to correct your problems (perhaps a different approach would expedite this)

Rich K.

Aidan (UK)

Glycol Stain = definition of a leak??

Harold - this whole thread raises some interesting questions.

It appears that you consider the green stain of the dye to be a leak. Certainly would agree, the green color didn't come out of the air. I don't think anyone is going to dispute the dye seepage - pretty clear from the pictures.

I think the focus here should be, what is the definition of a leak.

1.)Was there any damage to your property as a result of any liquid dripping from a joint, or is the complaint based soley on cosmetic factors?

2.)If there is no evidence of water, but just a discoloration at the seam from the dye due to the glycol, is this considered a leak?

3.)Does a joint like this have the potential of developing into an actual liquid leak? I guess some engineer would have to answer that one.

4.)How long has the system been in with these stains? Has there been any change since the initial installation

5.)During this time, has there ever been any liquid dripping from any fitting joint?

6.) When you say - "failure of ProPress essentially immediate" - are you referring to the appearance of the stain or an actual leakage of liquid?

7. You state "Rate of failure greater than 50%." What in your mind is failure? The green stain?

As Clinton said, it depends on what the definition of is is.

While certainly not attractive, I can undertand your complaint. The issue - is this a considered a leak of the joint, or a just stain due to the molecular seepage of the glycol dye? Does this constitute joint failure? I don't think so.

In my mind, a leak could be defined as - a continual/intermittent discharge of the medium contained within the piping system such that a loss of pressure would occur. If it were air, the pressure would drop. If it were water, we'd see water spots below the joint and beads of liquid on the joint surface.

As far as pipe prep, I have watched, hundreds of joints done, rarely are the pipes deburred. I have the responsibility of telling the plumber/contractor that deburring this cuts is the suggested guidelines from the manufacturer. But alas - no leaks.

I believe the concern for the burr is on the outer edge of the cut tube. They don't want the o-ring comprised as the tube is inserted into the fitting. If you have a good cutter, this is not likely to be an issue. In my mind, it's the guy's using a sawzall on a 3" copper line where you really have to be concerned about burrs - not the guy with the Ridgid 151 cutter.


So Harold - enlighten us - what is the definition of a leak??

Aidan (UK)

maybe

He had a few too many tonite??

ScottMP

Ken



Let me ask a question.

Let’s take a product that you and your company installed quite frequently. Hundreds of installs have proven to you that this is a product you can recommend to your customer and you feel quite confident that it works well. No call backs equal good business. The company answers your questions when you have one and comes to the shop to train your men.

Suddenly Mr. Milne comes to the wall and says “That product is a POS. Mine failed right away and it stinks. I won't even let the company have it back to check it. Catastrophic failure, I say!! "

How do you respond?

Do you jump ship and say “Wow was I duped. I guess great marketing covered my eyes. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways ".

Or do you, as Ken Secor, the intelligent, rational man I know you are, say “What a minute, lets see what happened here. I've used this product hundreds of times and I've never seen this problem. What happened? ".

Rational discourse here.

Scott


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DanHolohan

Not that you asked me,

but I think a leak is when the stuff inside winds up outside.

Am I being too simple?

[Deleted User]

I guess if you want to get technical we'd have to go to the dictionary for the definition of 'leak'. Now unless the maker of the press fittings have re-defined the word and buying the fittings means you automatically accept that definition, we have to use the everyday definition. "A crack or hole that accidentally admits a fluid or light or lets it escape." My concern is the gas fittings, since it doesn't leave an immediate stain. The explosion usually rids the fitting of that anyway I guess.

Ken_40

Having seen the evidence,

And seeing the nature of the thread; which is basically denial, not rational discourse - I'd respond as I have all along.

Those who claim never to have seen a leak haven;'t looked close enough and/or install only, never to return to the job-site again - and therefore incorrectly conclude press fittings are perfect, while those who have absolutely nothing to gain - like Harold and the many posters who HAVE witnessed leaks and simply mention them in passing - while those who "believe" in what they use - despite the rather compelling data suggesting they are using a product that has problems basic to the design and principles of good engineering - then go on to DENY what see with their own eyes and refuse to be objective about the evidence...

Coupled with the obvious bias of some posters who sell or otherwise profit from the press fitting business - acting as if we are unaware of their bias, which only a blind person or naive Nelly would be culpable to, then goes on to say/write things like, "I've made thousands of joints and never seen a leak." Or, "It's faster." While completely avoiding the issues of: The fittings are not readily available in odd, e.g., 3/4 X 1/2 X 1/2: tees; cost three times what standard fittings do; the tool weighs over 10 pounds, a Turbo torch around 2; the tool and jaw sets cost a fortune; no one mentions the fact that one side of the o-ring is exposed to air. Ever notice how an old box of faucet washers, made of neoprene, identical to the o-ring in composition, gets hard and crack - rendering them useless for their intended purpose, after they lay around - even if sealed in a blister-pak?

What do you suppose will happen to the air exposed side of the press fitting o-ring over time? Do you think it might be like the faucet washers you found buried in the corner after five or ten years? Brittle, cracking and unfit?

I was also under the impression you also found some leakers after a second look. Didn't you also post a picture of a weaper six months ago?

There are two separate dynamics here. The product's failures is but one. The manufacturer's response is the most aggregious one.

Paraphrasing Harold's six month old thread, "If something that belongs on the inside of a pipe shows up on the outside of the pipe, there's a leak.

Some posters here suggest, "If there isn't a puddle on the floor - there is no leak." One went so far as to suggest it was a "molecular migration, not a leak."

Do you not see the marketeers and sellers of the product lurking behind most of these kinds of dumb comments?

Believe this: As long as the problem is contained, the makers will sell this "system" indefinitely. However, it is my opinion that when the numbers of leaks is known and a good lawyer (oxymoron) gets his hands on this case, the class action law suit will make press fittings a thing of the past.

I would not be surprised for this thread and Harold's of six months ago to be in the hands of a competent attorney and showing the thread(s) to the judge adding, "Your honor, this demonstrates the manufacturer's knew of product defects way back in spring of 2007 - and they dismissed the evidence, both written and photographic, as being outside their responsibility."

While not "on-point," the fiasco of Heatway Entran comes to mind as a parrallel. They denied they had a product problem until dragged into court. Then they blamed the sub they hired to manufacturer the tubing for screwing up the formula. All the while being heavily UNDER-insured for product liability and all the while not bothering to have a third party test a few feet of tubing from each run for QC.

I suspect the press tool and fitting manufacturers are making so much money off the fittings and tools, they really don't care about the risks involved.



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Plumdog_2

HoooAhhhh

Gotta go get a sponge and clean the coffee off my screen

Steve Ebels_3

Valid point EJW

Given the price of copper tubing and fittings, solder type or Propress, why would anyone use copper for residential plumbing in the first place? I keep waiting for Viega to bring 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" Fosta Pex to market. At that point I will probably retire my torch.

scott markle_2

Leeks

As far as I know this leakage has never been observed in water only systems.

Dan, I do think that the inside/outside definition is useful, but perhaps it is a bit simplified. The permeability of a material depends on the material that is being contained.

One of the major obstacles in developing a hydrogen fuel infrastructure is that hydrogen being the lightest (smallest) element is very difficult to contain, it literally seeps through stainless steel. Standard pex, water tight, oxygen permeable.Every material has it's limitations the question is how suitable is it to a particular application.

When we evaluate things only based on what we can SEE we may be missing the whole picture.Remember- "what you can't see wont hurt you". Obviously false in many ways, Ironically in this case it is what we are seeing that is harming us. These"leeks" are unsightly, but are they of any consequence beyond aesthetics?

I'm not a chemist but my senses tell me that glycol is slippery stuff. It almost seems to get into and soften your skin. What concerns me is that there are many glycol systems that are NOT showing this staining (I dont think it's dye or pigment but a corrosive patina that is causing the stains.) So why stains after a year on one system and not on another? This concerns me! Could an inferior batch of o rings have been produced? could the jaws or tool have been manufactured out of tolerance.

While I would like to see this thread go away, I'm a big fan of press. I would also like some answers to these questions.

Ultimately I am willing to accept that Glycol is problematic material. It needs to be monitored,can be contaminated be water impurities breaks down at high temperatures etc. Can I accept these stains as an additional consequence of glycol, Yes. but I want to be assured that the company has diligently examined the issue. The current (Veiga) silence is unsettling.

By the way what was the moral consensus on my bringing this to the H.O/Viega's attention or not?

[Deleted User]

I think we should limit the discussion to propress fittings and what fluids they are designated to work with. All I can say about leaks- If I solder a joint and the fluid on the inside of the pipe makes it's way to the outside via the joints, it's leaking. Why not define a leak the same with the propress fittings? If the press fitting manufacturers don't figure this out soon, I can assure you that the insurance companies will. On a positive note for the pro-propress guys, I scrutinized the joints on a condensate cooler the other day and absolutely no seepage. Now it's only been there for a year so far. The condensate is pretty aggresive even though they use softened water. I was surprised that the o-rings have held up under the ph and high temperature.

Paul Pollets

One question, maybe two...

Harold, was the piping system cleaned with chemicals prior to filling?

Was water chemistry ever tested at the time of the leakage?




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Unknown

" I can press any size tee faster than you can solder it, and I dont have to wipe it off when I am done. "

EJW

I haven't used any press type tool yet , but just thinking about the mechanics of it , like Ken said , you have to reset the tool 3 times to finish a tee . You also have to reposition that tool 3 times . I know alot of our soldering is from awkward positions , so it stands to reason maneuvering that tool into those same spots can be tricky , at best .

I'd put you up to the " Press or Sweat Challenge " anytime EJW .

Glenn Sossin_2

inside out

Agree what ever is inside should stay inside. Clearly some component part of the glycol made it's way past the o-ring.

The product is not perfect, I don't think anyone is trying claim it is, but, for every 100 documented leaks (assuming that there are that many) what percentage of them occurred in glycol based systems versus water based systems.

For every 100,000 fittings installed correctly, what percentage leaked due to defect versus installer error? While I sell the product, and admit I will have some bias, I can't help but think the failure percentage of properly installed fittings is a minute fraction of a percentage point. The fact that a leak can occur doesn't mean this product isn't reliable and should be pulled off the market.

Hasn't there been leaks with Victaulic? It's still widely used and accepted. I've even seen a leak in a flexible gas pipe product - no fault of the installer.

I'm sure we've all seen a cast hole in a brass / bronze fitting, or no-hub cast iron fitting. Does the fact this can happen negate the value of the product/system?

It seems that some component of the glycol is prone to leakage. Based on this thread, I have started to tell my customers that there is the potential for a green substance to appear at the joint seal when glycol is used with ProPress - but not leaking of fluids. I trust I'm right on this. If there was leaking fluid such that drops of liquid was coming out from the joint seal, I have confidence Viega would stand behind it - even with just a site inspection and photo.

Perhaps Viega and all the other press fitting manufacturers should put an * on the fitting bag stating there is the potential for this green stain to appear in glycol based systems. Seems that might be a wise option given all the opinions/information presented here.

heatboy

I wonder if.......

....these "leaks" are continual, or are they a one time thing on system start up? I haven't seen any leaks, but I have done virtually no glycol with them. If the joint is cleaned up with steel wool, or equivalent, does the stain reappear?

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Perry_3

O-Rings easily last a few years... what about long term

Well I seemed to have missed a lot the last couple of days.

I have no problem with understanding how the EPDM O-Ring last for 5 or 10 years exposed to many things (properely installed).

My concern is what evidence is there that they will last long term; or are they generally going to fail in many services in the range of 20+ years.

Depending on your reference the shelf life of EPDM is considered between 10 years and unlimited (i.e: forever) (the "unlimited shelf life" is if you maintain it in a sealed bag, out of sunlight, between 59 F and 100 F, and less than 75% humidity). However, I don't believe that even in those conditions that EPDM will actually last "forever"

I am not saying that the system does not have its place (properely done); but I would not want to have this kind of joint behind the wall or in the ceiling where it is not accessable. Nothing else is driving people to open up walls and redo them for 80+ years. Why would I not want a piping joint that is expected to last that long or longer. For those who are using this joint - are you explaining to your clients that the joints may need replacing in the future because they are only designed for a limited life. If the joints generally need to be replaced in 20 years - who is going to pay for all the work required to get to them (and I am not talking about an isolated failure that can be attributed to poor installation or just a bad fitting).

That is my real concern with these joints.

My second concern is Viaga's strange definition of a leak - and lack of response when presented with solid evidence of such leakage.

I have worked about 30 years in the US Navy (steam propulsion), and power plants where miles upon miles of piping and tubing exist with all kinds of joints. If there is any evidence of what is on the inside showing up on the outside it is a leak. In fact, for some things we test for leaks using helium which will show leaks that you would not see any water seepage on (and if we detect leaking helium it is called a leak and repaired).

I agree with another poster in this tread that people who are questioning if Harolds situation was a leak or not - and asking what the definition of a leak is - are generally in denile. They are looking for a way to claim there is not a problem instead of asking what is the problem and how do we 1) fix it; and 2) prevent it from happening (is it from improper installation, a bad batch of O-rings, improper crimping, etc, other).

I also fail to understand why if further analysis needed to be done to determine the cause; why it was expected that the homeowner (Harold) was expected to pay a good chunk of money to enable that analysis.

Perry

Harold

As I explained above, I did not permit Viega to cut pieces out of my system for the noted reasons.

Although I am sympathetic to the need of the professionals to know what is happening, I must view this from a very self-centered view. I paid a lot of money for this. I will not fund the experimentation of the vendor, who has specifically said to me that this is normal for their product, to determine if there may be something special here. And wind up with a butchered system that would look even worse. It is also inappropriate for the contractor to fund their "research".

My definition of a leak is when what is supposed to be inside shows up outside. I believe that I will stick with that. Non-leaking to me does not mean mostly or in some cases. It means never; or it is broken. Period! I find difficult to believe that even a technically untrained person (a judge for instance) would accept Viega's definition of a leak.

Non-leak means from the beginning; not after a while or maybe never. If it leaks a bit for a while, I have no confidence in the long term performance.

If glycol can get out, oxygen can get in. Not good.

In any other circumstance (e.g. a fitting in my car's cooling system) if I saw the same thing happen, I would fix it. If it is leaking now, I will not assume it will either stop or not recur. If it occurred after someone had installed a part; it would go back for repair. This is not what I believe to be rocket science.

Ancillary property damage has not occurred - except that I expect (and paid for) what I believed (and rightly so) to be a showcase system. The contractor was carefully interviewed and his work observed before hiring him to do the work. How many photos on this site of completed exemplary systems show green gunk on the joints? I specifically bought a system that was both functional and "pretty". If pipes had been put in crooked, or wires were run haphazardly, I would not have hesitated to insist that the issues be rectified.

Viega clearly stated to me that the leakage is normal for their fittings, "everyone knows that", and it was just because of the glycol that it was noticed (note they recommend their system for glycol). Combine the statement about the stuff inside getting to the outside being normal with their absurd definition of a leak, and ignoring everything else, they are selling an admittedly defective product. At the very least it is deceptive advertising. That is just not right. This non-leak behavior is (or at least was) not disclosed in their specifications or other literature I have been able to access.

Regarding repairs. I am unconvinced that the contractor did anything but a professional job using these products. We have talked, but I find it ethically unacceptable to ask him to replace the system with soldered joints. It is not his fault, although legally I believe he would be responsible for installing defective products. I will simply not go there. All work he did for me after discovering the nuances of ProPress was soldered. I will allow no ProPress fittings to be used within my property. Never. Ever.

You guys out there without problems are justifiably reluctant to accept a civilian's point of view about systems in which you have heavily invested. And you are probably getting real tired of the discussions on this topic. I cannot fault you for that. You do not know me well enough to judge if I just a crazy old man or the problems are as described and important to me. If it an effective product for you, go for it.

scott markle_2

Your right, sorry for the digression on hydrogen etc. I guess what I'm asking is: is an invisible leek a leek? the actual volume of fluid lost to these stained fittings is probably close to unmeasurable, it's just very apparent because of the colorful reaction between copper glycol and air.

Perry_3

Victalic Fittings - what I found out

This is a good question Gordo:

I have not spent a lot of time looking at fire protection systems. I have dealt with Victalic fittings in a several other systems where their use allows quick dismantling of the system or quick piping section replacement: Power Plant Bottom ash sluicing systems were originally constructed with errosion resistant cast iron pipe with Vitalic connections - to allow the replacement of piping sections when they erroded through - a routing maintenance job at every coal fired power plant I worked at: In many cases these systems have now been replaced with plastic pipe which is more errosion resistant and much easier to repair or replace. Fly ash handling systems often have victalic fittings for the same reasons. There are at least 3 systems in the nuke plant I work with Victalic fittings that are routinely dismantled with some frequency (thus replacing the gasket ring on a regular basis).

So what about fire protection:

I walked down the fire protection systems in a 35 year old plant and a variety of other buildings that range from 35 years old to 8 years old. There are victalic fittings in those systems; but, only in the "dry" sprinkler systems, "dry" deluge systems, or "dry" standpipes.

All wet sprinklers and wet firemains and standpipes are flanged or threaded joints.

I talked to the fire protection engineer and he explained that most sprinkler systems installed in the US are dry systems. The pipes are full of pressuized air and there is a flood/trip valve that will send water into the sprinkler system if the air pressure drops in the piping. When a sprinkler head "fires" due to being heated to the appropriate temperature (or if it just failes) it doesn't take that long for the air to vent out and the water to arrive.

The reason they use dry sprinkler systems is to make maintenance easy and to minimize possible freeze damage.

Concerning Victalic fitting leakage. Yes, they occasionally have to replace a gasket - even on a dry system (loss of air pressure); and it is not considered a significant problem if a Victalic fitting were to actually leak during a fire.

I cannot speak for other practices that may exist in other parts of the country.

Perry

Glenn Sossin_2

clean joint?

Harold Did you ever try to wipe off the green substance and does it reappear?

Richard Miller

Harold, I have not said anything yet and in general I won't. I don't have a dog in this hunt.

All I want to say is that you are worrying over nothing about the oxygen issue. You and whoever first brought it up last spring.

It is a complete non issue. You already have joints sealed strictly with rubber in your system. You just didn't know it. Every single radiant floor system out there does too. (except maybe the gravity flow ones if such exist)

The amount of oxygen that could infiltrate your system is so minute it will never hurt a thing. If it did, pretty much every other hydronic system out there would also be in trouble. Oxygen becomes an issue when there is enough permeable surface to allow enough oxygen to infiltrate to cause a problem. That simply does not exist in your system. Like I keep saying, if it does, then there is a heck of a lot of systems that should have failed over the years.

Do what you need to do. It ain't no skin off my back. But do yourself a favor and drop the oxygen issue. It doesn't help your credibility.

EJW_3

Press vs. Solder

Its funny how this went from a speed challenge to a space issue with the tool. I am fully aware of the space limits of this tool, as I use it quite a bit. I guess I should have been more specific.

I clean and de-bur my pipe the same with either Pro Press or solder. I also clean with emery cloth. Now remember I am not talking about behind a soil stack. Take three peices of pipe and prep as I described, and assemble. I didnt have to flux mine so one is already done. You are now heating the first one as I finish the second and so on. It would be close with 1/2 and 3/4, after that you would be wasting my time altogether.

I know this tool has limits of space and cant be used for every single thing. I also know there are places you cant stick a flame. I have not thrown away my torch and never will. In fact I just bought a new one.

EJW

Unknown

Speed challenge , space issue

I know you're fully aware of the space limits of the tool .

Is there any other benefit to using this system , other than labor time saved ? That you can work on pipes with water in 'em already ? I can do that with Sharbite fittings , or in a pinch , compression fittings .

The challenge was just tongue in cheek . But it brings up my real point - using the press tool would have to be awfully faster than we can solder a joint . And most anyone who has worked copper for a few years can solder a pipe mighty quick . Anything over 3/4 and I'd be wasting your time ? If " pressed " to it , I know I can clean , flux , join and solder a 1 1/4 inch tee in 30 seconds . Can you connect a same sized tee any faster ? And more importantly , can you connect it so much faster that the labor savings can make up for the premium price of the fittings , compared to sweat ?

Sorry , but I don't see press fitting systems saving so much time to be a viable alternative to soldering . You think it's funny it went from a speed challenge to a space issue , but both are valid if the main selling point to this system is the time it'll save you .

Richard Miller

"1 1/4 inch tee in 30 seconds"

I call BS on this one.

Unknown

Hard to believe , huh ?

To be honest , I never timed myself but it sounds about right , at a fast paced speed .

At regular speed I can have that same tee connected in under a minute . No BS on that one , Richie .

Richard Miller

I am not the fastest on the block. But I have seen some pretty doggone fast plumbers. And I simply cannot fathom someone deburring, cleaning, and fluxing 3 - 1 1/4" pipe ends, cleaning and fluxing the three legs of a 1 1/4" tee, heating it up, soldering it, AND doing a good job of it.

EJW_3

Ron Jr.

All I can say is you have to try it yourself. Reps are always trying to loan out a tool for a day. Thats really the only way you can see what you can and cant do with it. I tried not to come across in my last post as "soldering is bad". Wasn't trying to p*** you off.

EJW

[Deleted User]

I used to do a lot of boiler replacements. I can't see how the extra 1/2 hour you save with the propress can justify the more expensive fittings. If I cost the company $45/ hr- that's $22.50 for a 1/2 hour- the extra cost of the fittings would be more than that. I realize no two jobs are the same and it's hard to put a number of the amount of fittings. You still have to measure the pipe and prep it- just not wait for it to heat up. Fluxing doesn't take more than 2 seconds. I've used the propress in a lab to avoid a hot work permit. It does have a place. If it leaks though, you can't unsweat it. You have to cut out a bad joint. Sooner or later you run out of pipe.

[Deleted User]

I used to do a lot of boiler replacements. I can't see how the extra 1/2 hour you save with the propress can justify the more expensive fittings. If I cost the company $45/ hr- that's $22.50 for a 1/2 hour- the extra cost of the fittings would be more than that. I realize no two jobs are the same and it's hard to put a number of the amount of fittings. You still have to measure the pipe and prep it- just not wait for it to heat up. Fluxing doesn't take more than 2 seconds. I've used the propress in a lab to avoid a hot work permit. It does have a place. If it leaks though, you can't unsweat it. You have to cut out a bad joint. Sooner or later you run out of pipe.

Ken_40

Did you want to discuss the weight issues?

Would you prefer to lift and trigger a 10+ pound tool all day long - or, a 2 pound one?

Considering both tools are esentially designed for one hand operation, I see huge issues no one seems to want to address here - in this regard.

10 pounds or 2? All day long. Much of it at waist level, along the ceiling, and reaching out a couple of feet from the body?

That's the equivelant of holding a gallon jug, plus another quart of milk, in one hand for every single press needed (three on a tee; two on an ell). The time required to hol the tool would include: basic line up targeting, the actual triggering of the jaws, waiting the few seconds for the jaws to close and auto-stop; the release/retraction of the jaws, and pulling the tool back to repeat the same process three times (for a tee) - per fitting.

Can you spell Carpel Tunnel? How about wrist, elbow or shoulder pain?

Portable units have heavy batteries. A-C units have power cords to trip over. Looks like the fastest tool in the west is less than the perfection many would have us believe.

Lest we forget, "it saves time."

That alone, does not make it even close to being "perfect;" especially in light of triple the cost fittings; apparent non-compatibility with different brands; well documented leaks; the tools gross weight; coupled with the tools enormous basic cost for it - and all the jaws required.

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realolman

Harold, I agree

I agree with you in everything you have said and the reasons you have given for what you think, said ,and did... except for one... I too think you should drop the oxygen thing. I believe it hurts your "case" which I think is otherwise rock solid.

You paid for first class, you have a good contractor, you shouldn't have to fund investigation, or live with a patched up job. I too believe that if it's on the outside, it leaked.

I do think the oxygen thing is speculation, could be proven to be incorrect ( or at least would be darn hard to prove to be correct ), and because of that, detracts from the focus of your otherwise perfectly valid position.

Other than that I'm with ya.