Help choosing a boiler for high mass and low mass radiant heating.
The house is located in Central Vermont. It contains a 1400 foot walk out basement. Three sides are 7 foot below grade. 2 foot above grade. The four basement walls are 10 inch thick poured concrete. The walls are currently uninsulated, but will eventually be framed and insulated. The slab is 4 inch concrete, embedded with 1200 feet of 1/2” Uponor PEX A, on six circuits. Attached to 2 inch foam board, a vapor barrier, on 1 to 3 feet of three-quarter inch, compacted, crushed stone. The basement is sitting in a blasted out section of ledge rock.
I was told the basement has a design heat loss of 15,000 BTU.
(For last year’s past heating season the slab was heated with a Takaji 140 TH3M tankless water heater with a floor set point of 55°, producing a room temperature at 4 feet of 60° +/-. maximum propane use of 5.5 gallons/day, during a 2 day period with an outdoor temperature of -10°. The purpose of the tankless was to keep the house and basement from freezing. The tankless will be removed and used for DHW only. this was sufficient for its purpose. However, the long trunk lines and head of the tankless heater produced a unacceptable input output temperature. 25° difference if I recall.)
The main house is single floor with the design heat loss of 30.8 K BTU, 22 BTU/hr/sf. The design heat loss figures were provided by a boiler installer, whom I no longer have contact. I did do my own J calculations, and got values close to his.
There is 1100 feet on 8 circuits (2 are kickplate heaters), of 1/2” Uponor PEX A. Installed on approximately 8 inch centers below the 3/4” Advantec sub-floor, covered by 3/8 inch laminate flooring. The PEX is attached to the underside of the flooring with Uponor’s aluminum track, between the joists. There will be insulation provided below the PEX, in the joist cavity at a future date. The supply lines currently run back to a manifold placed above the basement slab manifold. both in the center of the house on the east wall. However, this system is not connected to a heat source yet.
Question: Should I move the main floor manifold to the center of the house, and just run 1 inch trunk lines to the boiler in an attempt for consistent floor temperatures?
A plumber friend plans on providing me with a Altac 080 65,000 BTU condensing boiler, to hook up to the two zones of PEX. I will make use of the two zone capability of the boiler. In addition, a separate pump and zone valve for the Toe kicks.
My concern is how to balance the high mass of the slab, and the low mass of the laminated floor living area. I do have access to a 15 gallon storage tank for the low mass portion. However, I’m thinking I should just switch on the basement zone for a few minutes every time the low mass floor zone is active.
I should note that the living area will also be heated at times with a woodstove. But when we are not in the house, the Altac boiler needs to be able to function on its own keeping the house at 65° and the basement slab at about 60.
Even after reviewing @EdTheHeaterMan , @hot_rod , idronics publivations, plus YouTube videos, there are so many different designs I don’t know where to start to accurately combine the two mass systems.
Additionally, I’m not sure if the Altec is the proper size. With occasional use of a woodstove it should be sufficient. I’m not sure if a larger Altec would be overkill. Any help would be appreciative. I do travel and don’t always have access to cell coverage so my response may be delayed.
Comments
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A few questions:
- There is 1100 feet on 8 circuits (2 are kickplate heaters), of 1/2” Uponor PEX A. Installed on approximately 8 inch centers below the 3/4” Advantec sub-floor, covered by 3/8 inch laminate flooring. Is the PEX attached to the underside of the flooring with Uponor’s aluminum track, between the joists?
- Are all 1100 Sq Ft of floor using the 8" space tubing? (or only the part that is not heated by the kickplate heaters)
- What percentage or what square feet if the 1100 is radiant and what percentage or square feed of 1100 has the Kickplate heaters?
- What size are the Kickplate heaters?
- How are the Kickplate heaters connected to the rest of the system?
I also want to know if what you are calling a Kick plate heater, also known as toe-kick or kickspace heater, are compact heating units designed to fit into the 3½-inch cavity beneath kitchen cabinets, bathroom vanities, or stair risers.
If that is the case, then you have three different heating-water temperature requirements to deal with. The kickplate heaters are very comfortable operating with 150°F to 190°F water, while the in-slab radiant and the under-floor radiant will normally operate at substantially lower temperatures.
The basement slab may occasionally require supply-water temperatures above 110°F under design conditions, depending on the heat loss and slab construction.
I would be particularly careful with the radiant tubing under the laminate flooring. The required water temperature needs to be calculated based on the heat loss, tubing spacing, aluminum transfer plates, subfloor thickness, and the R-value of the finished flooring. More importantly, the floor-surface temperature must remain within the laminate flooring manufacturer's allowable temperature limit.
So you really don't have one water temperature that is necessarily appropriate for all three types of emitters. The kickplate heaters, slab radiant, and under-floor radiant may each need their own temperature control or mixing strategy.
Once you have determined the basic strategy for the system, almost any boiler can give you the results you are looking for. A cast-iron 80% AFUE boiler with proper return-water temperature control will work, as will a modulating-condensing boiler.
The boiler selection is not the big question here. In my opinion, the system design is much more important.
- Start with the load calculation
- Select the temperature control design for each of the heat emitters
- Kick Space Temperature
- Slab floor Temperature control
- Under Floor/ staple-up Temperature control system
- select the boiler that is the correct size for the system.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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so that boiler is fine for a 45,000 heat load.
This boiler?
You may be sble to get away with a two temperature system maybe a around 90-100 supply to the slab
The upstairs could need 120 or higher depending on floor coverings The kickspace heaters can operate down to 120 supply
Ideally you could find the original design to confirm supply temperatures
If not it will be a bit of trial and error to dial in the system
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I kind of like the Taco iSeries-R valves for this job. You can use the boiler’s outdoor-reset function to control the highest-temperature KickSpace loops.
Then you can use an iSeries valve with its outdoor-reset control to essentially “reset the reset.” I think this is a great idea, and I hope this technology does not go away anytime soon.
The idea is that the lower-temperature zones take the water temperature provided by the boiler and mix return water with it, adding or mixing in hotter boiler water as needed to produce the lower supply-water temperature required by that zone.
The control uses its own outdoor sensor to automatically lower the water temperature supplied to the related zone as the outdoor temperature rises, while increasing it as the outdoor temperature falls. This allows each lower-temperature zone to receive only the water temperature needed to maintain the desired comfort level.
In this above example there are 4 different temperatures. The highest temperatures come directly off of the hottest boiler water and can return to the supply with closely spaced tees or back to the return, both are acceptable depending on your design. The second and third zones temperatures are using a mixing valve with the iSeries-R actuator to obtain the desired temperature. the last zone is using the lowest temperature boiler water from the system and that is using an injection design to add just enough hot water to the loop(s) to get the desired floor temperature.
Those valves are not inexpensive, but they eliminate the need for additional or separate valves and ODR controls to operate those valves. @hot_rod has more experience designing these systems and may have a different idea. But I think this might be your lowest cost design for what you are trying to accomplish.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
As @EdTheHeaterMan and @hot_rod have said and implied (I like @EdTheHeaterMan 's scheme just above!) the boiler isn't an issue. Any boiler which will supply the required BTUh power will work. Myself I would probably pick a modulating one for this application, as it will alter itself (again — outdoor reset!) to match the actual load better.
And as they had said, the dseign and control of the system as a whole is the key to it. Part of that — which they didn't really cover — is to ensure that the actual heat input capabilities of the various spaces is well related to the space, considering use and exposure and such things.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Kick heaters are often used if the floor cannot cover the load. Of maybe it is a one, low temperature system and the kick adds some kick?
If it is the fan type they are a bit noisy, suck and blow pet hair. Use them only when necessary.
i'd like to see you do a two temperature system. With low loads and required temperatures within 20° of one another, here is a simple method.
Assume the basement is one zone.
The boiler is a 10-1 turndown so it ramps down to 8,000. Perfect. It is probably a two temperature boiler control, however one temperature at a time.
An option I have used several times is proportional reset. From Idronics 7
Run the boiler at the highest temperature required for the plates, lets say 130 on design day.
Run the boiler on ODR.
The low temperature zone is done with a manual 3 way mix valve. It tracks along with the boiler temperature.
So set it at 100° on a design day for the slab zone. As the boiler temperature ramps down, so does the mix temperature.
Here is an examples.
If you have a buffer, better yet, it give you some capacity and a hydraulic separation.
A small electric tank as a buffer.
Boiler S&R on left. High temperature teed off that S&R as a 2 pipe buffer. 3 way mix valve on top.
Boiler sensor in tank. The tank operates the boiler firing.
A control and motor could be added to the 3 way for more temperature control, also.
I also stuck a 4500 w element into it for 15, 300 back up (dual fuel) option. If the boiler fails, plug it into a 30A range receptacle
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0
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