Lead service line question
I know this is not Terry Love, but you guys have impressed me beyond measure, so I decided to post my question here.
I live in a 100-year-old house with galvanized water lines and a lead service line. (My municipality is scheduled to replace the lead service line in the next couple of years.) I recently decided to install a whole-house automatic shutoff valve, due to several friends who each suffered a catastrophic leak and subsequent flooding.
A bit of background: I am no stranger to plumbing. On my last house, I did a whole-house repiping job, swapping out old galvy for sweated copper throughout the entire house, all work done by me. I also also switched to a tankless water heater, which was relocated from where the tanked water heater was, and that required repiping all of the black iron gas supply lines to accommodate the tankless DHW and a high-BTU kitchen setup. All of this was done under permit.
Looking over the meter and the service entrance in my new house, I decided to let a plumber pro handle this. I am wary of the lead service lines and the mingy shut-off valves. However, I have had two plumbers kind of go AWOL on me, and I am tempted to just do it myself, but I have questions/doubts.
The lead service line enters the home, then goes to a square-headed shutoff valve, then to the meter, then to a 90 degree lead line, then to an ancient globe shut-off valve. Beyond that is all galvy distribution lines. I plan to replace the globe valve with two full-port ball isolation valves, and a whole-house Phyn brand automatic shut-off valve.
As a homeowner in my municipality, I am allowed to get a plumbing permit and request a curb stop shutoff. Here are my questions if I decide to proceed myself:
-I am a bit scared of the ancient square-head shut-off valve before the meter. I think I would just leave it alone and assume the curb-stop will take care of everything. If I were to damage that, I would be up the creek without a paddle. Do you agree?
-What do you think about the 90 degree lead line after the meter? The simplest course of action would be to leave it in place, but why would I keep it? Wouldn’t I be better off just putting some regular piping and an elbow in there?
From there, I would just put in a ball valve, the automatic shut-off valve, another ball valve, and then a union and some 1” galvy to reattach to the house distribution system. I decided to put in two ball valves as “isolation valves” for the automatic valve. I want to do that because I figure the chances of that Phyn whole-house valve still working as planned in, say, 40 years, is close to zero. I would like to minimize the trouble of replacing it.
I am undecided on tackling this myself. If it were downstream of a reliable shut-off valve, I would have no hesitation, but…. Any thoughts or questions are warmly welcomed!
Trying to keep Bernie burning!
Comments
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I can understand the plumbers going awol because it is making my stomach churn a little.
Since they are not replacing the service line, yet I guess you need to do something so we both can sleep at night.
I would not touch the square head cock. I would have them shut it down at the curb stop. Run any pipe you can ahead of the shutdown if possible. When they shut off the curb stop drain it down and use a wet dry vac at the water meter outlet. Disconnect the nut carefully on the meter outlet and re connect to your new pipe.
Probably need a new gasket at the meter outlet
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obviously the only right way to do it is to replace the service which might be where you end up anyhow.
if it weren't leaking all over the place i would leave the riser out of the meter in place but since it is weeping I would do as @EBEBRATT-Ed said and very carefully break the union out of the meter and build new from there. you should support the new valves with some hangers of some sort. hold the meter well with a backup wrench when you break the meter union so you don't disturb the service.
lead pipe was fairly delicate when it was new and after 100 years it will be very brittle. it might just split down the seam if you bend or twist it much or try to cut it.
if you break the service you will either have to hope you can get a good cut on it and use a dresser coupling or wipe it in to a new fitting, both of which are pretty dicey on a 100 year old piece of lead pipe.
so what happens if the service crumbles when they try to close the curb stop? does the service get replaced?
i think i see an old meter gasket on the floor. the vinyl asbestos tile is a nice added touch.
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Not sure how I'd go after that. Under an assumed name, I think. However, one thing I notice — that system is bonded around the meter for the electricity, and I'm a bit suspicious that that may be your primary house electrical ground, using the service pipe. I'd want to double check that and make sure that the bonding in replaced — and possibly have a new modern whole house ground installed for the electrical system.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
You'll be swimming 🏊♀️ in very deep waters. I'm doing this 40 years, and I'd be very cautious. Sounds like you just need to find the right guy. Where are you located? Mad Dog
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someone did manage to change the meter in the not so distant past.
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A lot can go wrong in that proposed project! What if you damage the lead portion? How would you deal with that repair?
It's been how many years? Why not wait until you get the line replacement. Shut off the curb stop if you leave for extended time.
You might drive a ground stake for the system ground?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I hope that you’re not drinking any of that lead-laced water. And I wouldn’t touch any piping until you get a new service.
A one to two year wait to replace a serious health and property damage risk is unreasonable. Is this in the city or are you out in the sticks? I’d make quick friends with my neighbors and city council person to light a fire and move the calendar up. Maybe even hire a lawyer. Unacceptable!8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
chicago has around 400,000 lead services still in service. they were still installing new lead services in to the 80's so they have a project that will take decades to complete. other cities have similar problems. if you control the chemistry of th water they are not a hazard. ideally they would all be replaced but i would have to dive in to politics to explain why we aren't going to do that.
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Thank you all for your input. Yeah, you are right…. I am not going to take this on myself. That is what I had concluded before, for the reasons you guys point out, but I was just getting impatient.
I will give my plumber another chance. He hasn't seen the job, but I described it to him. My concern is just that he hasn't exactly jumped on setting a time to do the work after agreeing to do so. Saying "AWOL" was a little harsh. I want to use the mom 'n' pop shop, but if he doesn't come through, I could call one of the larger firms that have been bought up by private equity.
As for the lead: Yes, this is a common problem in my area. This is in an affluent first-ring suburb of Milwaukee; I believe the city itself is in even worse shape. My village is doing the community one fraction at a time, but there is a lot yet to do. I believe they are only about 30% done, so it will be a while. In the meantime, they are treating the water supply in the area with orthophosphate and pH management.
Yes, that water meter was replaced in 2022.
As for the electrical bonding wire, yes, that heavy-gauge wire runs to the complete other side of the house and goes into the electrical panel.
Mattmia2 says: " the vinyl asbestos tile is a nice added touch." - Yes, isn't it though? 😆 The former owners "sealed" it with some paint-on stuff. My long-term plan is to bury it all under ceramic tile, about 1500 sq ft worth.
Trying to keep Bernie burning!
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Looks like you’ve got a nice, cool place to store your wine. Make sure that you have an accurate inventory before the plumber comes over. : )
I remember when wineries had lead foil capsules over the cork.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
removing the vat is not really that big of a deal, it can be done without a massive amount of containment because it isn't friable unless you start pulverizing it. i would not seal it up in the layers of the floor especially with ceramic tile because it won't be a stable base.
be patient with finding the right person to replace part of the piping because you need someone with experience working with old piping or you will be replacing the service. whoever a big company assigns to your job probably isn't that person unless they are owned and managed by an experienced plumber.
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The lead piping will have a patenia layer built up, and most cities with lead piping are adding phosphate to promote that layer. Although Denver went a little too far with the dosage a few years back.😳
Issues can arise if the water provider starts using aggressive chemicals that strips the layers from inside the lead.
That is what happened in Flint, MI, a new, different water source stripped the protective layer inside the lead piping, exposed the lead, causing lead levels to soar.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Until you get the new service line I’d recommend a series of large filters with the last one removing any lead. Recently we had a contractor remove some service lines for a building demolition. One was lead. They were super careful disconnecting that line from the main. He described that pipe as dynamite! Probably best not to have anyone work on it.
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Is that 9" square floor tile? That is usually a give away to being asbestos.
Here in Neb. that can be removed by anyone and must be double bagged for the landfill.
A couple of summers ago we had to clean out the house of a hoarding relative. The basement was full of junk, it had the 9" tiles.
As Luck? had it a water line leaked overnight. Frozen wall hydrant that was used for about 24 hours and flooded the basement to about 2" deep.
We called the insurance company and surprisingly they paid for clean up and drying out. All the tiles floated loose and Service Master doing the clean up just bagged up everything, including the tiles and hauled it all away. Make things a lot simpler for the relatives.
However the black adhesive holding it down may have asbestos in it. So you would not want to sand or grind it. FWIW
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i wouldn't count on 12" tiles being asbestos free either, apparently they were still putting asbestos in some flooring until at least 1987 and it seems they shifted to the 12" format in the 70's.
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@Mad Dog_2 i got curious about this so i looked in the 1970, 1978, and 1986 sears catalog. the 1970 sears catalog has what they call vinyl asbestos tile in 12" tiles, the 1978 catalog calls them "reinforced vinyl", and the 1986 catalog doesn't say much of anything about what they are made out of. the sheet vinyl in the 1970 catalog says only the asbestos backed sheet vinyl is suitable for below ground use, the 1978 catalog says the "white felt" baked sheet vinyl is suitable for below ground use and the 1986 catalog says some are suitable for below grade use without explanation of why.
the wording alludes to largest manufacturer of vinyl flooring so i assume it is sears branded armstrong and there is documentation that armstrong was making asbestos backed sheet vinyl until 1987 so if they didn't think that was too friable i doubt they would hesitate to embed it in vinyl.
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Go out and buy the smallest drill bit ever made and drill a hole in the lead on the street side of the meter. Put a bucket under it and call the water company LOL
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in michigan we're responsible for everything after the curb stop
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I don't doubt what you say its that way here. But the OP says the municipality will replace the service line. If the OP owns the service line then why would the town replace it?
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in michigan they usually have a program to replace entire lead service lines that is frequently at least partially funded by some sort of grant but that program usually has a timeline of years or decades, i don't know if they would pay for it as an emergency repair that wasn't scheduled as part of the program.
in ann arbor we didn't have lead services but we had galvanized services that used a piece of lead to make the bend from the main to the galvanized service. they had a program to replace those services from the main to the curb stop usually when they repaved the street that started in the early 90's and they finished that years ago. every once in a while they will find some services they missed in their inventory and will replace those. they are also going back and replacing the rest of the galvanized service in the earlier replacements because some of the lead can get deposited in the galvanized pipe and later break loose. they switched to copper around 1930 except for some stuff that was done during wwii. i think they have fairly good records from when the original services were installed in the teens and 20's.
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Sharp eye, but you don't know the half of it! I make wine (~50 gallons/yr). There are many, many cases of wine beyond what you can see in those pictures. I liberally give bottles to all contractors who work on or even come out to quote work on my place. I figure that at worst I am out a few bottles of wine, at best I get some favorable treatment! 🍷
Trying to keep Bernie burning!
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seems like beer would be the liquor of choice in Milwaukee? It’s not really a grape climate, is it? Although upstate NY produces some notable wines.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
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My wife is from Canandaigua in the Finger Lakes, which is where we got married. Naturally we served Dr. Frank's wine at the wedding!
Trying to keep Bernie burning!
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I spent the last 2 weeks of July in my youth with my grandparents on Lake Keuka just below Dr Frank's Vineyards over looking the Lake. No prettier vista on earth. Mad Dog
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Maybe if you plied your plumber with enough wine he would get the job done. Just don't let him have any until the job is complete and not leaking🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Tradesmen appreciate the personal touch. Gifts of homemade wine, cookies, excess lemons or figs from the garden; always a nice surprise.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab2 -
Where i live it is not the plumbers job to replace the lead service coming into the house. We are responsible for everything after the meter or the first shutoff. You need a bonded service provider who is certified with the city. Obviously it's your responsibility to pay the installer but you need an contractor that works on underground services, at least where I am from. I had a new copper service line brought in and they did it in about an 1.5 HR. they barely disturb the sidewalk. they shoot it thru the ground. They did it so fast i missed it.
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they usually dig a hole at each end of the service then thread a steel tape through the old service and use that to pull copper in behind it with the backhoe.
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Same way here. The town or city usually has a contractor they recommend using.
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Around here curb stops or meters are at the property line, in the utility easement. Beyond that it is the HO line and responsibility. So it pays to ask the question of the utility.
In older cities the curb stops may be on the main buried in the street. The valve that is part of the hot tap into the main. That should be the utilities or their subcontractors responsibility.
Around here cities and towns are subbing out installation and repairs on most all the utilities. Probably a liability and skilled labor shortage at the city level?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
With all due respect stating what is code and the rules "in my area" or "around here" but not telling anyone where that is doesn't really help much.
I guess that goes for me as well.
In NJ you own everything after the curb stop. That doesn't include the meter obviously, but all piping etc is the home owners responsibility.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Just for completeness: In my case (suburb of Milwaukee), everything from the curb stop to the house is my responsibility ("private portion"). The "public portion", i.e., from main to the curb stop, is their responsibility . The curb stop is located between the street and the sidewalk.
The municipality is running a program to replace all of the service lines (over a period of years). When they do your block, it is mandatory to have your private line replaced. However, they will cover 50% of the project cost at that time. If you want to replace your line at an earlier time, 100% of the cost of replacing the private line is the homeowner's responsibility (but they will replace the public portion at the same time on their dime).
Trying to keep Bernie burning!
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So you're taking the risk over a few hundred dollars?
If you go to sell that home that water main is a huge red flag!
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Where exactly do you feel replacing a buried water service line is a few hundred dollars?
Even if we're talking the 50% scenario?
Can you get anything for $300 in NYC?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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My water line was just over 1G.
The OP can live with a lead water main or change is NOW and not worry about!
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