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Is a small water heater an acceptable solution for extra heat on a heat pump system?

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  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    My boiler guy hates propress. My wallet hates propress!!

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 7,034

    Propress in the long run is far cheaper and better!

    skyking1
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 27,297

    All very neat and good looking…

    BUT

    May I put in a word on behalf of the sparkies a few years down the road? Have a complete — and I do mean complete — notebook on your electrical system. A full wiring diagram. A ladder diagram. A description of where every device is. The original installation and commissioning instructions for every device. I know that sounds like overkill, but… I have worked on houses with non-standard wiring, and in the absence of such documentation your future sparky is going to have to stop and create it for himself or herself — on your dime.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    Not on my dime, I will create a good notebook for the future owner when I hand over the keys. I am the sparky on this job.

  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,928
    edited February 23

    Where in Western Washington are you located? I noticed the Berg scaffold sticker on one of your pieces of equipment. Who’s doing boiler work. I’m retired boiler/radiant contractor in Seattle.

  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138
    edited February 23

    Hi Tim. It is out on the Olympic Peninsula. I worked 22 years for a commercial plumbing company with my boiler room plumber and he is on the job. I had one of their lead plumbers do the sanitary for me too. It is nice to have friends like that.

    This is a black pipe piece of art, with a low heel vented up and into that 6" wall, the 3" goes to another bathroom group. The stack down and the vent up are in that single bay. It is a tight place, that 2x10 is the beginning of the dropped roll in shower.

    I built a chase into the back of the closet for that and duct and the hydronics, and dropped the lid.

    PXL_20250809_160934749-1.jpg

    The lav had to move right for I-joist hole rules. Stacked beams on the left made venting difficult :) My only air admttance valves are for those double lavs. AHJ is fine with AAV's.

    PXL_20250809_160920903-1.jpg

    If I had waited to do the hydronic, that lav would be that much closer and I would not have him put a holesaw through one of my loops, LOL!

    My brother and I hammered a replacement loop in. We brothers did it all.

  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,928

    uponor plates? Not cheap huh?

  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,928

    that’s all we used since Wirsbo came to USA back in mid/late 80s.

  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,928

    why abs vs pvc?

    skyking1
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138
    edited February 23

    No, these are made by Radiant Design and Supply in Montana. Super nice folks and I highly recommend them. They loaned me the air hammer to beat that stuff in.

    https://radiantdesignandsupply.com/

    It was better than the uponor. They have two different widths of transfer plate.

    They had some seconds with a little corrosion on them, not in the pipe groove and made me a deal on what they had of that.

  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    It is PVC in the dirt and we transitioned to ABS because brother, there AIN'T no PVC sanitary fittings out here LOL!

    I would have been dependent on a Monday once a week to Fergusons, or Keller. Fergusons just killed it on price for the ABS and stock it 10 minutes away.

    I could have ordered a pickup bed full of PVC and I still would have come up short. You know those plumbers.

  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,928

    pvc just quieter, that’s my main issue.

    Mad Dog_2skyking1
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    As the operator, I appreciated how much better the PVC was in the ditch. We do a lot of 1% grade and the ABS was banana bent all over the place. The PVC just tosses down on my ground guy's gradework. Glue it and go.

    But the plumber did bring up a good point and this combo of PVC in the ground and ABS up was efficient, labor-wise.

    And I could get all the parts :)

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,390

    Nice piping work!

    I suspect this 4" hole in the TJI is a bit close to the end? Although I doubt the floor will collapse. The inspector I worked with was a real stickler for holes in TJI, a lesson that has stayed with me for many years now :)

    Screenshot 2026-02-25 at 8.26.12 AM.png Screenshot 2026-02-25 at 8.28.55 AM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    pecmsgskyking1
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138
    edited February 25

    Bob, I became one with both the Weyerhauser (Forteweb) and the Boise Cascade (BcCalc) software programs, and each one of my joists with critical holes in it are modeled in that software. You can place holes larger and with better understanding than just chasing around the rules in those PDF's. I would be happy to share that experience here and get somebody started with it.

    Here is a sample report with a big 8x14 duct hole in the middle. The PDF says you can do this, but the software models the resultant shear forces.

    image.png
    PC7060
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    So what you do as the HVAC guy ( me ) is move ducts around until the software is happy.

    Then you talk to the plumbing designer ( also me ) and find routes for pipe.

    Then you both talk to the guy laying out the wire runs ( ME AGAIN ) and he just has to suck it up and behave.

    Sometimes we are up late at night arguing. It is a mess. I hear the doctor has some pills for this.

    PC7060Larry Weingarten
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,390

    Good to know on the span engineering.

    . In my case the plumbing & mechanical inspectors carried the TGI chart on their clip board. If the hole(s) were outside that chart you had to get an engineer to sign off. And in some cases an engineered "fix"

    The building inspector on my shop that I built last year, wanted to see web stiffeners on the bearing points also. But you have a better hanger that what I used. They are very seismic obsessed in this area, even my small 800 sq ft shop had to be engineered.

    Screenshot 2026-02-25 at 1.23.46 PM.png LVL repair.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    skyking1
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    That joist was a Weyerhaeuser because I used their cantilever design on the 2nd floor. Here are some screen shots of that joist's report.

    image.png

    Note that it uses the overall length, including the beam on the left and the top plate of the wall and the rim board.

    This can be a pain to get right. The Boise software is easier IMO.

    image.png

    image.png

    This perforated beauty is Boise Cascade.

    Screenshot 2026-02-25 8.26.45 PM.png

    If you keep holes less than 1.5" and spaced at least 6" OC, they fall into the prescriptive engineering criteria.

    image.png

    The closer to center you place a big duct hole, the lower the shear forces, as shown above.

    I had to move a duct off center and that is where the software helps.

    image.png

    Note the shear is at 88.5%

    This was the easy part. Then I had some short foyer joists in front of the elevator shaft wall that had the same hole, but now at the end.

    Then the left end moved from a rim board inside a 13.5" thick ICF wall to a plate on top of it. This made it worse.

    image.png

    Shear value is now 94.8% of allowed, even though the span is much shorter.

    This is the point where using the <free> software really pays off. I adjusted that duct run through all the joists until I had the sweetest spot for it.

    Not having any bumps in my basement is priceless, to me.

    Untitled Image

    I built router templates.

    Untitled Image

    you can see where the joists went from the rim hangar to the plate on the dropped wall there.

    Untitled Image
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    I showed my inspector the softwares and reports, and he was down for that. I do have a good relationship with him.

  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138
    edited February 27

    I cut the manifolds into my chase wall. When I designed the central core I had a dimensional bust in the elevator pit/shaft location that we corrected by adding a 2x6 non-bearing wall. doing so fixed the stairs. I did have a chase planned on the far side of the bearing wall so that was eliminated. It is all good as they say.

    All headered up now. It gets the 24x30 metal door. Taco vents on order.

    IMG_20260224_131121.jpg

    Same treatment at the east manifold location.

    PXL_20260223_205750868.jpg

    I put the basement floor manifolds on the wall where I was told. :)

    PEX is supported with those bend helpers and ready to pour back. Note the Zurn 12" floor sink hiding under the original plywood. The water heater goes in the corner just beyond it.

    I worked around the commercial plumbers for years and concluded that a floor sink is a handy thing to have.

    PXL_20260225_225906182.jpg

    I had subgraded and marked everything so the finishers did not have any pipes to work around. He did a nice job putting a slight bevel into the sink for me, his hand is on that plywood lid.

    I spot fixtures like floor sinks with blobs of concrete under them ahead of time, so the finishers cannot stomp them out of level.

    PXL_20240919_174213412.jpg

    The equipment room wall stubs are all there waiting for the sledgehammer.

    bring them up, do a pour back.

    PXL_20250724_204620507-1.jpg

    Adjacent bathroom group.

    PXL_20250729_000548694.jpg

    That way we could roll all over with the scaffold and not have any trippers etc.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 27,297

    Beautiful work. But oh my… wish I'd had some of that beam software 60 years ago when I started doing structural timber…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    skyking1
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    Tis handy for sure. I modeled the versa lams with it. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis bad joints etc, and played with joist sizes and have a more "live" floor than some would like, but I know it will help her.

    I swapped versalams for Glu-lams in the roof where I can leave them exposed and finished. It was a total wash for $$ per foot and I will take real wood every time. I have the wood fever.

    PC7060
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    This is not my work, and I am so fortunate to know this guy. It is my dream and concept, but he draws and figures and makes copper beautaceous.

    I got the pourbacks done, and we pulled, pushed and cursed that last 1" PEX through the joists. It is now all manifolded and under test to the shutoffs. I have to hook up all those little tubes now and get that tested.

    PXL_20260226_235010314.jpg

    Hybrid Water heater goes left corner with pan and T&P and condensate into the floor sink. After he gets the ground loop manifolds in and around the corner, I will bring in that temporary water heater for hydronic testing.

    PXL_20260226_234716515.jpg

    He sweated up that big air separator from spare parts. I have a to-do list for all that loose and uninsulated PEX, so I can frame and close off the lid. It is all set for flush and fill after I land all the loops on the manifolds and give that an air test.

    I looked at the municipal water report and it is excellent. Hardness is 108 ppbillion or .0063 grains. I have a carbon 5 micron cartridge for that filter housing. The rest of the water specs are similarly low.

  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    I have the 21 3/8" house loops terminated, air tested, flushed and filled and under static water test now.

    I need to get the 6 1/2"slab loops done and then we are ready to temp in that water heater.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,390

    are you sure about that water hardness?

    108 PPM is about 6.4 gpg, a more reasonable number

    Could be a typo on the report?

    Got a pic of the report?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    you are right. The report had PPB in one area but further research has it as PPM and it is confirmed.

    So do I want to flush those loops and get one of those high dollar filters?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,390

    You can fill and flush the system with that tap water, run some dishwasher soap if you want to save some bucks. Or a hydronic cleaner.

    Flush and then the final fill through a cartridge like this. Other brands like Culligan around.

    Seems like a small investment to protect a multi thousand dollar system?

    \

    Screenshot 2026-03-06 at 8.10.08 AM.png Screenshot 2026-03-06 at 8.06.31 AM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    skyking1PC7060
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138
    edited March 8

    thanks I added one to the cart I have perpetually running at supplyhouse. :)

    It says 65 gallons based on 200 PPM, and I have a 5 micron filter in front of it and the hardness is a little over half that.

    My 200' loops are about 2 gallons each. I will put the discharge hose in a bucket and flush a couple of gallons through each loop.

  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    First in last out manifolds done, with two groups of 3 and 4 loops respectively.

    PXL_20260309_211835963.jpg
    PC7060
  • skyking1
    skyking1 Member Posts: 138

    shame to cover it with insulation

    PXL_20260310_213217767.jpg
    PC7060