Can my vintage boiler wiring be updated to modern wiring?
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@109A_5 The code in the 1930s did not call for a third green or bare copper conductor that you find in romex wires today. About 1947 or 1950 was the first mention of a dedicated ground wire in the NEC code books but I might be wrong about that. But I agree with your newer diagram if Northstate88 wants to keep the old look of the knife switch and fuse. The reason that there were fused disconnects back in the 1930s was to use several circuits off of one 30 amp leg and then drop down to two or three 20 amp circuits that could handle multiple appliances. If the new gas burner needed only 5 amps or less to operate the control transformer, it might be added to a basement 20 amp wire and then drop down to a lower gauge wire that had the 5 amp fuce in the switch box.
The average homeowner in the 1930s was a little bit more hands on with electric stuff and that was the reason for the 5 amp screw in fuse that also fit the same socket as the 30 amp screw in fuse. The homeowner was supposed to know not to put a 30 mp fuse into a 5 amp circuit . We all know how that turns out…
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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That is not a knife switch, it is an enclosed safety switch, it is more or less the opposite of a knife switch. They still make more or less that same fused disconnect today out of slightly different materials. Square D invented the enclosed safety switch.
The requirement for type s fuses appears in the code in the 50's but as far as I can tell it wasn't enforced until the 70's or so.
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So I googed "Knife Switch" and looked at images that were all very much like the one on the right.
@mattmia2, can you explain how the one on the left is not a knife switch? Does the enclosure make this not work the same way as a knife switch? Does the handle need to be that piece of bakelite of rubber or some other insulating material at the end you lift to open the circuit? I thing this Square D enclosed fused disconnect uses two knife switches in the assembly. But I might be mistaken. I want to be accurate when explaining the facts.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I get your point but I also get Matt's
I think the term knife switch is almost if not always used to describe open switches.
Here's a current 3 phase disconnect.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I knew what Ed meant. IMO Safety switches commonly use knife switch 'type' switches for the disconnect means. I suppose in the case of this boiler, it is a safety switch with fuses, since the switch is enclosed and close to the appliance.
In modern times they usually do not open the Neutral, and the Neutral is not fused.
@ChrisJ three phase disconnect ??? How about Hot, Neutral and Ground wires ? Just Joking.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System2 -
I knew what he meant as well.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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a knife switch is open, it isn't enclosed. almost any high current switch's contacts are going to be a bar of metal moving in any out of a pair of contacts, usually rotating on a shaft like in that enclosed safety switch, even high voltage transmission line switches have similar contacts. that contact arrangement in itself doesn't make it a knife switch. you could have a knife switch in an enclosure but in a knife switch you are moving the contact bar directly, usually with an insulated handle on the end of the bar, it isn't moved from outside of the enclosure with a remote handle.
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square d made their business selling that switch as a safe replacement for knife switches.
a lot of old theater lighting systems were open slate boards with open knife switches to route the crosspoints to/from the dimmers and open dimmers.
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i like how the code rule says exactly the opposite of the ai "answer"
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Yes that is amusing.
To me a knife switch is a basic style of switch. If you enhance the application of it by putting it in an enclosure and that may also include mechanical interlocks, etc. and you call it a safety switch that is fine too.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
So the consensus is that once you take the parts of a knife switch and place it inside of an enclosure, put a bar on it so you can operate the knife portion from outside the enclosure, then it is no longer a knife switch.
I'm glad to know this now. I will include this in a chapter of my book called “Scheight that don't make sense”. I would not want to have anything false in my publication. I will certainly be selling copies of my book in the paddle store I plan on opening at the top of Scheight’s Creek. I hear there are lots of folks up there without paddles. I should make a fortune selling paddles there. Another business opportunity for anyone keeping score.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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To me the knife switch part is often a sub-assembly of a safety switch.
I have a boiler that actually boils water to make steam. All you hot water folks have something else, I just don't know what to call it. Apparently no one else does either so they call it a boiler. And if water is boiling inside that is BAD.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
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I agree that the term "knife switch" came from the older open switches. But a modern disconnect, safety switch whatever you call it is still a knife switch IMHO.
Just like all face tissues are Kleenex and all refrigerators are Frigidaire
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and all refrigerators are Frigidaire
How dare you!!! We don't use the F word in my house.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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did the early meter misers use rubber terminal seals?
i feel we may have drifted off topic.
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My mistake. All refrigerators are😎 GE
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