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Can my vintage boiler wiring be updated to modern wiring?

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  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,882

    @109A_5 The code in the 1930s did not call for a third green or bare copper conductor that you find in romex wires today. About 1947 or 1950 was the first mention of a dedicated ground wire in the NEC code books but I might be wrong about that. But I agree with your newer diagram if Northstate88 wants to keep the old look of the knife switch and fuse. The reason that there were fused disconnects back in the 1930s was to use several circuits off of one 30 amp leg and then drop down to two or three 20 amp circuits that could handle multiple appliances. If the new gas burner needed only 5 amps or less to operate the control transformer, it might be added to a basement 20 amp wire and then drop down to a lower gauge wire that had the 5 amp fuce in the switch box.

    The average homeowner in the 1930s was a little bit more hands on with electric stuff and that was the reason for the 5 amp screw in fuse that also fit the same socket as the 30 amp screw in fuse. The homeowner was supposed to know not to put a 30 mp fuse into a 5 amp circuit . We all know how that turns out…

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,256

    That is not a knife switch, it is an enclosed safety switch, it is more or less the opposite of a knife switch. They still make more or less that same fused disconnect today out of slightly different materials. Square D invented the enclosed safety switch.

    The requirement for type s fuses appears in the code in the 50's but as far as I can tell it wasn't enforced until the 70's or so.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,882

    So I googed "Knife Switch" and looked at images that were all very much like the one on the right.

    @mattmia2, can you explain how the one on the left is not a knife switch? Does the enclosure make this not work the same way as a knife switch? Does the handle need to be that piece of bakelite of rubber or some other insulating material at the end you lift to open the circuit? I thing this Square D enclosed fused disconnect uses two knife switches in the assembly. But I might be mistaken. I want to be accurate when explaining the facts.

    Screenshot 2026-02-13 at 6.00.33 PM.png

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 17,227

    I get your point but I also get Matt's

    I think the term knife switch is almost if not always used to describe open switches.

    Here's a current 3 phase disconnect.

    1000023788.jpg

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,989
    edited February 14

    old electrical switch gear

    These are knife switches

    image.jpeg
    mattmia2
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,805

    I knew what Ed meant. IMO Safety switches commonly use knife switch 'type' switches for the disconnect means. I suppose in the case of this boiler, it is a safety switch with fuses, since the switch is enclosed and close to the appliance.

    In modern times they usually do not open the Neutral, and the Neutral is not fused.

    @ChrisJ three phase disconnect ??? How about Hot, Neutral and Ground wires ? Just Joking.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    ChrisJEdTheHeaterMan
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 17,227

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,010

    The neutral can be switched as long as a two pole switch is used that breaks the hot wire with the same hand movement.

    As far a fuse in the neutral that is a no-no now but in the old days it was common to fuse the neutral and the hot.

    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,256

    a knife switch is open, it isn't enclosed. almost any high current switch's contacts are going to be a bar of metal moving in any out of a pair of contacts, usually rotating on a shaft like in that enclosed safety switch, even high voltage transmission line switches have similar contacts. that contact arrangement in itself doesn't make it a knife switch. you could have a knife switch in an enclosure but in a knife switch you are moving the contact bar directly, usually with an insulated handle on the end of the bar, it isn't moved from outside of the enclosure with a remote handle.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,805
    edited February 14

    Since it is an exception, knife switches inside an enclosure must exist.

    image.png image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,256

    square d made their business selling that switch as a safe replacement for knife switches.

    a lot of old theater lighting systems were open slate boards with open knife switches to route the crosspoints to/from the dimmers and open dimmers.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,256

    i like how the code rule says exactly the opposite of the ai "answer"

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,805

    Yes that is amusing.

    To me a knife switch is a basic style of switch. If you enhance the application of it by putting it in an enclosure and that may also include mechanical interlocks, etc. and you call it a safety switch that is fine too.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,882

    So the consensus is that once you take the parts of a knife switch and place it inside of an enclosure, put a bar on it so you can operate the knife portion from outside the enclosure, then it is no longer a knife switch.

    I'm glad to know this now. I will include this in a chapter of my book called “Scheight that don't make sense”.  I would not want to have anything false in my publication. I will certainly be selling copies of my book in the paddle store I plan on opening at  the top of Scheight’s Creek.   I hear there are lots of folks up there without paddles.  I should make a fortune selling paddles there.  Another business opportunity for anyone keeping score.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mattmia2TheUpNorthState88Larry Weingarten
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,805

    To me the knife switch part is often a sub-assembly of a safety switch.

    I have a boiler that actually boils water to make steam. All you hot water folks have something else, I just don't know what to call it. Apparently no one else does either so they call it a boiler. And if water is boiling inside that is BAD.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 17,227

    Can we get over the knife switch we all knew exactly what he meant. This is like guys arguing motor vs engine.

    Ed of all people doesn't deserve this.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,882

    Deserve… I thrive on this type of stuff.

    Thanks for your support Chris

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mattmia2109A_5
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,010

    I agree that the term "knife switch" came from the older open switches. But a modern disconnect, safety switch whatever you call it is still a knife switch IMHO.

    Just like all face tissues are Kleenex and all refrigerators are Frigidaire

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 17,227
    edited 12:43AM

    and all refrigerators are Frigidaire

    How dare you!!! We don't use the F word in my house.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,256
    edited 1:19AM

    did the early meter misers use rubber terminal seals?

    i feel we may have drifted off topic.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,010

    @ChrisJ

    My mistake. All refrigerators are😎 GE