Honeywell damper repair or replace?

RascalOrnery · February 5

Our church facility uses forced hot air for two zones, we have had problems in the past with the damper controls and they just get replaced.

IMG_20260204_195358443_HDR.jpg

This one on the second zone is stuck shut and does not respond when the thermostat calls and instead the hot air just dead heads against the damper and some overflows into the other zone. Is this damper repairable? If not, is the replacement as simple as the removal and install of a new one of the same make model? Our service company is very busy with frozen pipes and all the common things this time of year so we'd like to make it easier and just do the replacement ourselves.

I'm reasonably mechanical and technically inclined and it seems to me that a swap is straight forward but I don't want to assume too much, any advice?

Big Ed_4 · February 5

Shut off the power it should spring open . If it opens it could be the thermostat .. If it stays shut something is jammed ..

EdTheHeaterMan · February 5

Looks like a line voltage motor and it has a spring return that appears to be in the (ZERO) 0 % or closed position. Dors the motor open when power is applied? If yes, then the actual damper may be stuck. Can you adjust the actual damper by hand? You may be able to operate the system manually until you get the motor working.

109A_5 · February 5

Looks like it would be fairly easy to independently test. Make sure it is the problem. Is it under any warranty ?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/MS4105A1030-Install.pdf

HVACNUT · February 5

Does the damper move freely now that the actuator is out? Do you know if the problem is the actuator or the linkage?

If you were to order a new damper complete, when you order it, the second measurement is the side the actuator is on. Example, if the duct is 24x36 and the actuator is on the 24, you order the damper as 36x24.

RascalOrnery · February 5

Thanks everyone, yes actual duct damper is movable by hand. I'll verify power and then plug it in and see if maybe it isn't receiving power when the thermostat calls

Big Ed_4 · February 5

The zone damper needs power to close.. The spring brings it back to normal open ..

RascalOrnery · February 6

There is no power to the damper switch, I bench tested it and it opens. I do hear the thermostat switch close and the furnace fires up when this happens. But no voltage at the terminal connector to the damper motor. It comes out of the bluish armored cable. I assume this burner control is doing some zone control work, possibly a fuse is blown?

The power comes from the blue armored cable, could this be a fuse?

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Big Ed_4 · February 6

When there is a call for heat in one of the zones from the thermostat , the damper control board sends power to the non calling zone to close off damper. Leaving the zone calling for heat damper open .. The zone control board will also close a pair of contacts to jump out TT on that primary relay to turn on burner ..

RascalOrnery · February 6

Ah, so the default position is open and the thermostat closes the opposite damper. Makes sense. I'll check again

RascalOrnery · February 7

Well it appears this system was setup that the default position for the damper is closed, so upon heat call the damper for the calling zone opens and the pointer on the motor points to 90 instead of zero. With neither thermostat calling do I get any voltage read across the two terminals shown. So I assume there is a bad switch or blown fuse at the zone controller (for lack of knowing the correct word). For now I have the damper manually cracked open to get heat the same time the other zone does. Is this simply just a different way of wiring it or is it actually wrong and could it cause premature failure of the motors?

pecmsg · February 7

I only see 2 wires in there. Are you sure the end switches are being used?

Is there a zone panel?

ratio · February 7

Not wrong, just one of several ways of doing it.

You should get power with the zone calling, if the damper is spring closed power open. A pic of two of the zone control board would be interesting.

BTW, you'll want to make sure those BX cables don't come in contact with the water line. A wrap or two of black tape at possible contact points will suffice.

RascalOrnery · February 7

I'll get pictures of the furnace interior, just bunch of wires and individual switches or relays or something screwed to the sheet metal.

Thanks for the concern but that is actually a wooden stick holding the insulation out of the way, much as it looks like a copper pipe

109A_5 · February 7

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1886688#Comment_1886688

Per the model chart above I believe that unit does not have an end switch.

109A_5 · February 7

Find where Bluish armored cable goes back to, probably some relays or a zone controller of some sort.

I don't understand the logic of this statement.

" With neither thermostat calling do I get any voltage read across the two terminals shown. "

I'd compare to the operation of the other zones.

With this question;

" Is this simply just a different way of wiring it or is it actually wrong and could it cause premature failure of the motors? "

They probably only last so many cycles depending on the damper mechanical load resistance. I would think having the system only open the damper when needed would minimize motor use. However there maybe other ventilation considerations, depends on the design of the whole system. I thought you proved the motor works.

RascalOrnery · February 7

Haha yes, poor grammar did I use. Yoda talking thinks I!

I check for voltage at those two terminals with both thermostats calling independently and never got anything. The motor worked when I bench tested it.

I took the access panel off the burner control where the BX cable goes in and there's a mess of wires there, I'll take a picture tomorrow but it appears they are using the t t end switch terminals. Also a smattering of external relays to activate stuff that looks like it could be simplified with a single controller. More pics tomorrow

Big Ed_4 · February 8

The damper motor wires would be connected to the damper controls , can you post photo of the control used ?

109A_5 · February 8

More pictures of the wiring may help, with a wider view.

I would suspect two thermostats.

If no Damper zone control, two relays with DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) or DPST (Double Pole Single Throw) contacts.

A set of contacts of each relay are paralleled and connected to the T-T of the burner control. The other set of contacts on each relay sends the power to the appropriate damper motor. No real 'End Switches' are involved.

The thermostats and the relay coils are probably 24 VAC.

Since I presume the other zone works OK and the problem zone works OK, except it just does not open the damper due to no power to the damper motor, I would suspect a bad relay or a loose connection at the relay, or a loose connection under a Wire Nut maybe in that junction box.

I suspect they ran the wires for the Damper motors into the junction box since that was a convenient place to get the 120 VAC to power the Damper motors.

Neater wiring would make troubleshooting much easier with or without using a Multimeter.

109A_5 · February 8

I suspect it is wired something like this. There could be a blower thermal switch in the mix somewhere also.

RascalOrnery · February 8

Yes I think that looks pretty close, this system has AC as well and so I think all that wiring found it's way here to.

Definitely ideal setup. Haha, I should be able to trace wires and find the loose connection or failed relay. The only thing I will need is a suggested replacement, if they are sized the same I will pilfer one used for the AC for the time being but still unsure if they are duplicates.

109A_5 · February 8

This does not look very healthy.

pecmsg · February 8

that’s a mess!

ratio · February 8

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-Home-HZ322-TrueZONE-HZ322-Panel

You'd need interposing relays to run the existing 120 VAC actuators, or change them out for 24 VAC actuators.

These would work, you want "24 VAC spring return two position" if you want to shop: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Belimo-TFB24-Spring-Return-Fail-Safe-On-Off-Damper-Control-Actuator-Direct-Coupled-24-VAC-DC-No-Aux-Switch

109A_5 · February 9

To help get the correct replacement relay the part number and specifications may be on the side of the Relay's coil frame.

109A_5 · February 9

Also the screw terminal adapter looks like it got hot, so it may need cleaning up and the securing tension to the relay's terminal verified or replacement.

RascalOrnery · February 9

Since this is a mess and probably rather dated, is there a single unit that I could use to replace all this wiring and make it cleaner? I'm familiar with Taco zone controllers but have no knowledge at all about forced air systems. I would assume they're similar but you know what they say about assuming!

ratio · February 10

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1886941#Comment_1886941

RascalOrnery · February 10

I found a relay I suspected to be bad, swapped a wire and sure as shooting I got 120v at the wire connection for the suspected damper. So I'm sure at minimum this relay needs replaced.

I believe this is the replacement https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-90-290Q-Fan-Relay-Type-84-24-VAC-Coil-SPNO-Coil-Data-90-Ohms-DC-Resistance-125-mA-Nominal-3-VA-Nominal-4-VA-Inrush?utm_campaignid=590335651&utm_adgroupid=1228155606737651&utm_targetid=pla-4580359302591893&utm_product_id=90-290Q&utm_matchtype=e&utm_keyword=default&utm_adtype=&utm_adgroup=Power%20Distribution,%20Supplies%20%26%20Transformers_X_X_X&utm_searchquery=white%20rodgers%2090-290q%20relay&utm_category=Electrical&msclkid=136ceeb8560017e1bada8732d6fd1baf

For this:

As much as I whine about smart phones it sure is nice to be able to snap a picture and then zoom in to read what the label says. Please advise anyone if I should buy a different relay.

109A_5 · February 10

Something like this may work and there are others. You still may need 2 relays to interface to the 120 VAC Dampers.

For the present I would just replace the defective relay. Then in much milder weather when you don't need Heat or A/C dig into it then. In the mean time do the compatibility / feature research for unit you desire with your system.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Aprilaire-6403-Single-or-Multi-Stage-Heat-Cool-or-Heat-Pump-3-Zone-Control-Panel-w-LCD-Display

109A_5 · February 10

If it were mine, I'd replace the defective relay. Then I'd reverse engineer the wiring. Then in much milder weather when you don't need Heat or A/C I'd just clean up the wiring and draw documentation and label the functions of the relays.

As much as there is the allure of some high tech gadgetry if it dies when it is zero degrees outside you are stuck waiting for a replacement. Relays are much more common and can be easier to deal with in an emergency. Also stocking spare relays is easy and inexpensive.

I like my heating as simple as possible, relays are pretty simple.

Honeywell damper repair or replace?

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